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DurhamGirl

Were they rigtht to sack Steven? If so ccould they have been kinder?

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Posted (edited)

I am not sure, if his drug taking was affecting his drumming maybe they had no choice?

Edited by DurhamGirl

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Guns N’ Roses was already missing a namesake by their first recording (Tracii Guns). They are a product of an incesteous and cut throat scene where people played with everyone and anyone to find the formula for world wide success. It appears that Axl saw no reason to abandon that practice which worked so well for him and the band/brand to launch their career.

Also, theres plenty of quotes to indicate that Axl always had a vision for Guns to grow and change musically. He had NR in his back pocket. I don’t think Axl would listen to the band rehearsing to get his vision for their future. I think to some extent the band was expected (by Axl) to also grow into his vision. He tried this shit with Slash too, whom he respected and enjoyed more than Steven. And in turn Slash felt that Steven wasn’t up to par to record Mama Said too.

And it wasn’t necessarily about respect or disrespect in Axls mission for ‘perfection.’ He had the audacity to get Brian F’n May in to record and then thought nothing of it to heavily edit and reconfigure the melodies recorded by the living legend.

Its not so easy as saying its “right” or “wrong.” These low life’s just wanted to snort blow and bang underage girls while getting rich and famous. Steven was just the first casualty of the wonton greed and delusions of grandeur. It was winner take all. Known today as the big 3.

Guns N Roses can be seen as a crab bucket, the distillation of the Raeganomics fairytales. With Axl having clawed his way to the top.

 

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My understanding was Civil War was the last song Adler recorded with the band, and apparently a lot of editing was needed to get it right.

I really like Slash's guitar work on that track too. Sounds advanced compared to his normal playing. 

From a technical standpoint, where is Adler's drumming compared to Matt, Brain, Josh, Frank, etc.?

I believe Brain and Josh may be the most technically proficient players on drums, but I'm no musician. 

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1 minute ago, Sweersa said:

My understanding was Civil War was the last song Adler recorded with the band, and apparently a lot of editing was needed to get it right.

I really like Slash's guitar work on that track too. Sounds advanced compared to his normal playing. 

From a technical standpoint, where is Adler's drumming compared to Matt, Brain, Josh, Frank, etc.?

I believe Brain and Josh may be the most technically proficient players on drums, but I'm no musician. 

 

Technically, Steven is the worst drummer GNR have had. But his groove and swing was perfect for AFD, so he's also the best 'rock n roll drummer' they've had. Josh was their best drummer in a technical sense.

 

On topic, yes Steven deserved to get fired. They gave him several opportunities to get it together, but he was simply too fucked up. That said, I wish he'd been given more of a role in the NITL tour.

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Posted (edited)

I dont know  musicianship, styles, or instruments.  Steve was great  for AFD. Matt was great for UYIs. AFD and UYIs soynd like different bands in the sense, they grew and improved and did not make AFD Parts 2 n 3. Grow, change, improve.That is what you are supposed to do.                                                                                                                                          Pardon me for repeating myself   .  Next topic someone brought up. Yes, Steve could have been used in NTLT and in USA. My opinion, The Big3 could have had Matt, Gilby, Steve, Izzy , all 7 spilting the loot equally on just one American leg of one of the many American tour legs which was 2-3 months if that long and shows were not back to back  90 days, lol.                                                                        Yes,Steve 1990 could not reproduce quality .He was not a functioning alcoholic and drug addict  Yes they, Duff and  Slash were functioning alcoholics  and drug addicts. Time was money in their studio time, etc. Steve was in programs. He did not want to stop .  That was fact. Izzy made up his mind and saw his future after the airplane and never turned back and stayed clear from it and them too,lol. You know for a separate thread, I think he has a type of PTSD. To your topic snd others posts, each man likes to tell his story. Their stories never match. That we know as fact.You have to read between the lines. What happened with Erin. Her gf gave her 30 pills. Steve gave her a speedball. Axl brutalized her before that. I guess she really a bad day.. GENERALLY SPEAKING HERE.   Fans are fans and I am NOT referring to anyone here, but generally  fans in fandom tend not to believe anything bad about who they idolize. Steve gets a bad rap on this story which might be partially true. Equally true,it was the start of  end of the grou of AxSlDuMaIz . Fact, Steve gets a bad wrap for his drugalcohol use 30 years ago.Axl was beat up Stephanie and Erin.  Exploding pancress Duff. 2000s Xanax by Duff and Oxytocin by Slash. Fact,  today they are all clean n sober  and will be and never turned back .

Edited by Amaya
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6 hours ago, Sweersa said:

From a technical standpoint, where is Adler's drumming compared to Matt, Brain, Josh, Frank, etc.?

I believe Brain and Josh may be the most technically proficient players on drums, but I'm no musician. 

As far as classic GNR material and the interplay with the guitars and Axl's vocals goes, Steven mops the floor with all of them. He has the best feel and timing for Axl and Slash, it's a shame they didn't do more shows with him during the NITL tour.

Technically, Josh and Brain are probably the most versatile and on-point drummers, while Matt are Frank are solid but nothing to write home about. Frank's drumming suffers from having to play to a click track on stage, perhaps due to the visuals with pyro and videos givien more priority in the production than the actual music. I was at one of his first shows with GNR when he wasn't a member and just filling in for Brain, not using click tracks - made a huge difference compared to now and sounded alright to me. Nowadays he sounds like shit and truth be told the entire band does compared to when regardless the lineup they were still playing together instead of alongside.

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10 hours ago, soon said:

Guns N’ Roses was already missing a namesake by their first recording (Tracii Guns). They are a product of an incesteous and cut throat scene where people played with everyone and anyone to find the formula for world wide success. It appears that Axl saw no reason to abandon that practice which worked so well for him and the band/brand to launch their career.

Also, theres plenty of quotes to indicate that Axl always had a vision for Guns to grow and change musically. He had NR in his back pocket. I don’t think Axl would listen to the band rehearsing to get his vision for their future. I think to some extent the band was expected (by Axl) to also grow into his vision. He tried this shit with Slash too, whom he respected and enjoyed more than Steven. And in turn Slash felt that Steven wasn’t up to par to record Mama Said too.

And it wasn’t necessarily about respect or disrespect in Axls mission for ‘perfection.’ He had the audacity to get Brian F’n May in to record and then thought nothing of it to heavily edit and reconfigure the melodies recorded by the living legend.

Its not so easy as saying its “right” or “wrong.” These low life’s just wanted to snort blow and bang underage girls while getting rich and famous. Steven was just the first casualty of the wonton greed and delusions of grandeur. It was winner take all. Known today as the big 3.

Guns N Roses can be seen as a crab bucket, the distillation of the Raeganomics fairytales. With Axl having clawed his way to the top.

 

TBH when you started going on about Traci Guns you had lost me, the guy was in the band for a minute... he didn't write anything on Appetite! There is no reason to talk about him in relation to gnr like he was cast aside! As far as I know, he quit on his own.

As for Steven, he wasn't a casualty of Axl / Slash or anyone else in the band, he was a casualty of himself! you cannot lay the blame of his drug and alcohol addiction on them! He wasn't ready to get clean, and he couldn't operate to a functioning level so he ultimately forced their hand. The other option was wait and hope he got it together, but had they done that UYI would probably never have come out! He might try and rewrite that time in his favour, but by all accounts they tried to keep him!

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a band firing or hiring new members, especially when that is the only way for them to move forward. And yeah, it's cutthroat! but if your dream and 3 of your other friends dream is in jeopardy because one guy is partying too much the decision is simple.

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

TBH when you started going on about Traci Guns you had lost me, the guy was in the band for a minute... he didn't write anything on Appetite! There is no reason to talk about him in relation to gnr like he was cast aside! As far as I know, he quit on his own.

I was making a larger point about how many members filtered through those hollywood bands. Highlighting that the scene was so inceteous that a band ended up with some other dudes name! lol. And I put forward the idea that this approach may have informed how Axl thought of line up changes, going forward. 

29 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

As for Steven, he wasn't a casualty of Axl / Slash or anyone else in the band, he was a casualty of himself! you cannot lay the blame of his drug and alcohol addiction on them! He wasn't ready to get clean, and he couldn't operate to a functioning level so he ultimately forced their hand. The other option was wait and hope he got it together, but had they done that UYI would probably never have come out! He might try and rewrite that time in his favour, but by all accounts they tried to keep him!

The narrative I put forward was about Steven being a victim to of the bands culture and approach - a culture and approach that he helped build and was part of. I did not mean to suggest that he was a 'victim' of Axl/Slash alone, in some linear sense. But it is also true that my larger point was about a sort of social darwinism being one aspect to how they conducted themselves.

I could have been more clear and stated that Steven wanting all the drugs and feeling invincible was also one of the elements of the bands culture. And that would contribute to having an unstable and changing lineup.  I tried to express my thoughts this way,

10 hours ago, soon said:

Steven was just the first casualty of the wonton greed and delusions of grandeur.

 

29 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a band firing or hiring new members, especially when that is the only way for them to move forward. And yeah, it's cutthroat! but if your dream and 3 of your other friends dream is in jeopardy because one guy is partying too much the decision is simple.

I didnt really mean to say that it was wrong, necessarily. At least that wasnt what I was focused on. One of the points I was trying to make was that Stevens exit was as inevitable as anyone elses whose exits followed his, imo.

Im sure he was first to go because he was the weakest link, I agree with that, for sure.

Edited by soon
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Posted (edited)

The second part of your question "could they have been kinder?" reminds me of the Brian Jones situation with the Stones. It's very similar to Steven and Guns. They asked Mick Jagger, I think it was for the documentary Crossfire Hurricane, that same question and he said yes. They should've handled it differently and been more understanding towards Brian. Charlie Watts said he didn't remember much about the meeting but said it wasn't very nice. Then Brian died three weeks later. You could tell by the way Mick talked about it that he still harbored guilt over it. Luckily that didn't happen with Steven but it almost did. I believe they were justified in firing him but probably could've handled it differently. 

Edited by lame ass security
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You don't get to be big time charlies in life by being nice, all these bands are fuckin' ruthless, its not 'right' but no one gives a flying shit about right in these kinda situations, there's people that'll sell their fuckin' Nana for a pound note out here, firing some crackhead junkie ain't a stretch.  Plus, this idea that junkies are people with an illness and should be cared for etc, very few people that actual deal with junkies in real life think like that, non-functioning junkies that is.

7 hours ago, lame ass security said:

The second part of your question "could they have been kinder?" reminds me of the Brian Jones situation with the Stones. It's very similar to Steven and Guns. They asked Mick Jagger, I think it was for the documentary Crossfire Hurricane, that same question and he said yes. They should've handled it differently and been more understanding towards Brian. Charlie Watts said he didn't remember much about the meeting but said it wasn't very nice. Then Brian died three weeks later. You could tell by the way Mick talked about it that he still harbored guilt over it. Luckily that didn't happen with Steven but it almost did. I believe they were justified in firing him but probably could've handled it differently. 

There really is no nice way of saying 'you're a fuckin' brownhead and we're kicking you out'. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, lame ass security said:

The second part of your question "could they have been kinder?" reminds me of the Brian Jones situation with the Stones. It's very similar to Steven and Guns. They asked Mick Jagger, I think it was for the documentary Crossfire Hurricane, that same question and he said yes. They should've handled it differently and been more understanding towards Brian. Charlie Watts said he didn't remember much about the meeting but said it wasn't very nice. Then Brian died three weeks later. You could tell by the way Mick talked about it that he still harbored guilt over it. Luckily that didn't happen with Steven but it almost did. I believe they were justified in firing him but probably could've handled it differently. 

When you're an immature young band, these decisions are made in rapid time! there's probably a bit of "how do you think he'll handle being fired" but the main thing they focus on is 'This guy is holding up the show, and we want to succeed!'. Years down the road, I'm sure they all have different perspectives and approaches that they could have used. 

As much as I love Stevens drumming when he's on form, he was not going to cut it technically on the illusions album, at that point in time! they knew that, and i'm sure he was also pretty aggravating back then! I mean he's in his mid 50s and his 'all about me' thing has wained a bit. 

Edited by Tom2112
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Posted (edited)

Yes. Lets be honest in retrospect,  they could have been kinder. @Len Cnut. The key was ,as I posted before, a functioning drug addict alcoholic. Steve was not. Slash and Duff were. Matt was . Your bluntness is one sided. True, but onesided. What should have been done by the band, GeffenRec, management was the Areosmith model. All 5, you are headed off to group rehab, group therapy. Then if Steve could not get it together, buhbye. Retrospect and hindsight ,we cannot do anything about.                     @Tom2112 Who knows. If Steve , lets say had gone the IzzyRoute.- clean n sober n avoiding the rest of the band except for work times on stage and brief studio times.  Could Steve have played UYIs?  Musically it was different from AFD. I don't know music. UYIs sounded to me heavier, tighter, more complicated.                                                                            @lame ass security  Great point about TRS and Brian. He was no longer a functioning drug addict . Keith was and even when Keith wasnt , there was no firing Keith. No Keith , no TRS. So yes ,pick and choose who is expendable was done in both cases.                                                                                                                                                                                                    At about the same time of Steve's firing, the other Steve got fired too. He od dead. Steve Clark of Def Lep. They of Def tried more with him than GnR did with their Steve . DL even  tried several times going to rehab with their Steve.  Nothing worked. The guys of Def were none big on drugs and alcohol but Steve's body ,brain got in the deepest..  It was studuo time for Def, like GnR, after a big break between touring and albums too. Hindsight, retrospect, yes if they knew now what they knew then, Brian Jones, Steve Clark, SteveAdler  needed to be put in a locked in year long facility. If ,was there even such a thing  around for BrianJones in TheUK and at that time? They needed to be a ward of the state or family or management given conservatorship . Think Natalie Cole in the 1970s or early 80s and Britany Spears  now. who both would have died without conservatorship. NCole , oh that beautiful lady and voice, is deceased , but  her death was due to former drug use on her body 's organs although she was clean n sober for decades and at the time of her death. Whitney......there was no one to fire her. Everyone was " kind" because she was it in ,the money machine and no one never took real control either. 

Edited by Amaya
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7 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

You don't get to be big time charlies in life by being nice, all these bands are fuckin' ruthless, its not 'right' but no one gives a flying shit about right in these kinda situations, there's people that'll sell their fuckin' Nana for a pound note out here, firing some crackhead junkie ain't a stretch.  Plus, this idea that junkies are people with an illness and should be cared for etc, very few people that actual deal with junkies in real life think like that, non-functioning junkies that is.

There really is no nice way of saying 'you're a fuckin' brownhead and we're kicking you out'. 

Very true. I know they tried certain things to get him to stop,  I think Duff even threatened his dealer. 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Amaya said:

Yes. Lets be honest in retrospect,  they could have been kinder. @Len Cnut. The key was ,as I posted before, a functioning drug addict alcoholic. Steve was not. Slash and Duff were. Matt was . Your bluntness is one sided. True, but onesided. What should have been done by the band, GeffenRec, management was the Areosmith model. All 5, you are headed off to group rehab, group therapy. Then if Steve could not get it together, buhbye. Retrospect and hindsight ,we cannot do anything about.                     @Tom2112 Who knows. If Steve , lets say had gone the IzzyRoute.- clean n sober n avoiding the rest of the band except for work times on stage and brief studio times.  Could Steve have played UYIs?  Musically it was different from AFD. I don't know music. UYIs sounded to me heavier, tighter, more complicated.                                                                            @lame ass security  Great point about TRS and Brian. He was no longer a functioning drug addict . Keith was and even when Keith wasnt , there was no firing Keith. No Keith , no TRS. So yes ,pick and choose who is expendable was done in both cases.                                                                                                                                                                                                    At about the same time of Steve's firing, the other Steve got fired too. He od dead. Steve Clark of Def Lep. They of Def tried more with him than GnR did with their Steve . DL even  tried several times going to rehab with their Steve.  Nothing worked. The guys of Def were none big on drugs and alcohol but Steve's body ,brain got in the deepest..  It was studuo time for Def, like GnR, after a big break between touring and albums too. Hindsight, retrospect, yes if they knew now what they knew then, Brian Jones, Steve Clark, SteveAdler  needed to be put in a locked in year long facility. If ,was there even such a thing  around for BrianJones in TheUK and at that time? They needed to be a ward of the state or family or management given conservatorship . Think Natalie Cole in the 1970s or early 80s and Britany Spears  now. who both would have died without conservatorship. NCole , oh that beautiful lady and voice, is deceased , but  her death was due to former drug use on her body 's organs although she was clean n sober for decades and at the time of her death. Whitney......there was no one to fire her. Everyone was " kind" because she was it in ,the money machine and no one never took real control either. 

The reason bands like Aerosmith and Crue were all sent to rehab together was because all the members were so messed up that they couldn't work. GNR was operating fine, it was just Steven. They gave him months to get clean and he showed up to sessions messed up "I was on opiate blockers that were making me sick"... even if that is true, if you're given a ultimatum! 'get your shit together or else', and you show up and can just about get through a song you have not delivered. 

There's being nice, and then there's being smart. The smart money on Steven was that he was not going to get clean, he loved the party as much and more than the music so even if he had succeeded in getting through the sessions for the record... 1 week on the road and he would be a full blown mess again. How many times has Steven relapsed? I wish the guy nothing but the best and hope he stays sober, but his impulse control for a great number of years was fucking terrible! 

End of the day, people view bands as friends... and it's just not the case. As soon as you are out of the group you are forgotten 9 times out of 10. It's business in its purest form, I'm not saying I enjoy looking at it that way, but it is reality! I'd love to believe all my favourite bands are best pals with each other! but we all know that most of them can't stand each other and can barely be in the same hotel, never mind being on the same stages. There are rare examples of bands who were great friends right through like Rush, but even they fired their drummer back in the day! 😁And they were Canadians, the nicest people on the planet!!

Edited by Tom2112
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Posted (edited)

Unpopular opinion  of mine , the 5 are not pals besties. The 5 or 6 have never been seen together  in 30 years. An old Izzy interview, he called and saw Axl by going through the proper protocols first. That struck me all as odd,weird.Yes age, time, and money change people as it should, but friends or people close don't have proper procedures to contact each other.  I agree with you totally about what most people think a music  band or entertainment act is and it is not . It is  a real business first .The friends thing ehhhhh. Ex. I remember Wynonna Judd  something to the effect of get on a bus and work with your mother everyday for a year . Then Let her know how you make it,lol.  Once the band  fires another...? WHO?   I agree with you there about bands .                                                                                         Hindsight, retrospect,  if they knew then what they know now, maybe things could then could have been different. Steve was not a functioning drug addict alcoholic. Slash, Duff were.  If he were functioning, my opinion, he still would have been ousted..Yes SteveS cont. to be a mess for like the following decade plus. However, Duff ,Slash  were also a mess and had an issues during, UYIs,VR.                     Maybe these things would not have happened if the band, like Crue, Aerosmith had that long term group rehab. GnR needed it then. I disagree with you there. Steve was the worst  Axl was a headcase because of different reasons. Izzy was newly sober and could have gone either way straight n narrow or backwards. Maybe if they would have had group rehab, UYIs tour would have been diff. Izzy left the band January 1,1990 before he officially left so it has been said. We all read the UYIs chaos stories. Ancient histroy in the far past. Final result...present...Today, all 5 survived, are happy ,healthy  and won't ever return downwards.                                        

Edited by Amaya
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5 hours ago, Amaya said:

Unpopular opinion  of mine , the 5 are not pals besties. The 5 or 6 have never been seen together  in 30 years. An old Izzy interview, he called and saw Axl by going through the proper protocols first. That struck me all as odd,weird.Yes age, time, and money change people as it should, but friends or people close don't have proper procedures to contact each other.  I agree with you totally about what most people think a music  band or entertainment act is and it is not . It is  a real business first .The friends thing ehhhhh. Ex. I remember Wynonna Judd  something to the effect of get on a bus and work with your mother everyday for a year . Then Let her know how you make it,lol.  Once the band  fires another...? WHO?   I agree with you there about bands .                                                                                         Hindsight, retrospect,  if they knew then what they know now, maybe things could then could have been different. Steve was not a functioning drug addict alcoholic. Slash, Duff were.  If he were functioning, my opinion, he still would have been ousted..Yes SteveS cont. to be a mess for like the following decade plus. However, Duff ,Slash  were also a mess and had an issues during, UYIs,VR.                     Maybe these things would not have happened if the band, like Crue, Aerosmith had that long term group rehab. GnR needed it then. I disagree with you there. Steve was the worst  Axl was a headcase because of different reasons. Izzy was newly sober and could have gone either way straight n narrow or backwards. Maybe if they would have had group rehab, UYIs tour would have been diff. Izzy left the band January 1,1990 before he officially left so it has been said. We all read the UYIs chaos stories. Ancient histroy in the far past. Final result...present...Today, all 5 survived, are happy ,healthy  and won't ever return downwards.                                        

Of course there could have been the option b where Steven got it together and all the members for it together along with him and Axl wasn't batshit crazy, but I think in terms of realism... there's far top many obstacles.... and while were hypothetical mode, I'd wager that without all the drama and infighting gnr would not be as popular today. People love controversy more than the happy ending. Now, if gnr regrouped with Steven and Izzy next year and made a indisputable great album, that's a comeback story and everyone likes those too. 

It's all fiction and guess work though. What happened is what happened!

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They had to finish the album and Steven wasn't able to. They did a lot to try to motivate/coerce him but everything failed. In the end they had to let him go. I am sure they could have made the process of firing him more comfortable for him, but that can probably be said about any termination process. In the end it was the right decision. 

 

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I've always said that I think they wanted to replace Steven anyway and they used his drug issues as the excuse to do so. Reason being that while he was perfect for ADD he wasn't as technically skilled as needed for some of the UYI material and Slash and Duff had gotten miles ahead of him in terms of songwriting and musicianship. They needed someone who was on the same level and they found that in Matt.

That's just my opinion though, we'll never know for sure.

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9 hours ago, MaskingApathy said:

I've always said that I think they wanted to replace Steven anyway and they used his drug issues as the excuse to do so. Reason being that while he was perfect for ADD he wasn't as technically skilled as needed for some of the UYI material and Slash and Duff had gotten miles ahead of him in terms of songwriting and musicianship. They needed someone who was on the same level and they found that in Matt.

That's just my opinion though, we'll never know for sure.

There are a few quotes from Slash where he states that Steven's technical limitations prevented the band from recording songs they wanted. So yes, this played into it. But whether it alone was so bad they wanted to replace Steven, is impossible to say now and only speculation.

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