Scream of the Butterfly

I should add that in the Rolling Stone interview Axl did in 1992 he said, "I didn't know my sister was molested until last year." which directly contradicts the idea that he told Zutaut about it in 1990.

If I have said something that isn't true, it's because the original source (Axl, Zutaut, George Chin, etc) was wrong. I don't think the post above yours corrected what I said but added some more information and opinion to it. For all our speculation, it remains we can't be certain when the discussion took place or what exactly was said. It wasn't a written note from Axl as you claimed earlier. Your fierce commitment that it happened in 1990 or whenever you think it happened seems rather deranged. I have no horse in this race. It would make sense to me if it happened in 1991, after Axl and Zutaut temporarily reconciled, because that would also be closer to when the interview actually happened in 1992. On the other hand, if it happened earlier, that would give Axl more time to change his mind about who he was going to say sexually abused him. I'm fine with whenever it happened or even if it didn't happen at all but still uncertain.

Can you (or anyone) provide a quote where he says he remembered it before he started therapy? (I'm talking about conscious memories.)

They were still recording as late as summer of 1991 and Zutaut was still around. He returned after Axl called him and apologized. The fall-out they had over Erin wasn't the end of their communications. So it's a very wide time window. It's also possible that decades later Zutaut's recollections aren't accurate. Where did I say otherwise? I think she was talking about her thinking at the time it happened that led her to not go to the police. She blamed herself for putting herself in that situation, allowing it to happen etc. But that discussion should probably continue in the other thread. You are by far sloppier with your facts than I am with mine and that is the truth. He didn't just choose not to talk about it. He made it very clear it was his biological father, not his stepfather, who sexually abused him.

We had this discussion before, and you didn't provide any source, so my impressions are still based on the interviews I've read myself. He may have suspected it, but I don't think he ever said he remembered it before starting therapy. We don't know when his conversation with Zutaut took place. I started the post with "Going by what Axl said in interviews" to make it clear I wasn't taking Zutaut's comment into consideration. I don't remember whether he ever called it abuse, although I assume he had started to perceive it as such at some point. He did say "I thought these things were normal" in the Rolling Stone interview in 1992. You should take the time to actually read the interviews and not be so quick to assert that something isn't true. I think this is at least the third time you have falsely accused me of saying something that isn't true. Take a look in the mirror. Axl's "details" changed quite considerably if you believe the Zutaut quote that you are so fond of. He told Zutaut he was going to do the Rolling Stone interview to expose his stepfather for sexually abusing him, but when he actually did the interview, suddenly it was his biological father who had sexually abused him. This is indeed in a whole different ballpark from Sheila's situation.

From your link: "Alleged memories resulting from regression therapy included early memories of his stepfather being abusive to his mother resulting in Axl being born with a hatred towards his stepfather [Rolling Stone, April 2, 1992]." I think this is incorrect. He was talking about his biological father, not his stepfather. I don't recall him ever accusing his stepfather of being abusive to his mother.

Going by what Axl said in interviews, he didn't know he had been sexually abused. He only found out about it when he was about 29. He believed something must have happened that would explain his issues with women, and other problems, so he started regression therapy and came up with the memory of having been raped as a child by his biological father. He also said he had been beaten as a child by his stepfather, which I assume he had remembered all along, but most likely it would not have been considered child abuse in Indiana at the time, or even now, and Axl himself said he had thought it was normal (even though he's now trying to use it against Sheila Kennedy that she didn't initially recognize that what happened to her was rape). I imagine he didn't think it was enough grounds to cut ties with his family, especially if his stepfather had changed and was remorseful for what he had done.

She deserves some blame at least for how she reacted when Kat tried to turn to her for help.

I suppose anything is possible, although I don't think being mistaken about the identity of your rapist is anywhere in the same ballpark with being mistaken about what he said on the radio or other details. The radio thing could be a dream she had and 30 years later thought happened for real. Lots of possibilities. (And, no, I don't think that means that she may have as well dreamt up her entire encounter with Axl.) I don't think she's being deliberately dishonest about any of these things, but I do think that her mistakes create an impression that her memories are in a disorganized state (althought I think she's been trying to sort them out for the lawsuit.)

Even if Sheila herself didn't use the word "rape", a lot of people recognized that was what she was describing even in 2016. Read the comments to the Daily Mail interview: 'He raped her then. Because that's what she's describing. No need to euphemize rape with "had sex with her."' (This comment has 332 upvotes, 31 downvotes.) 'Re: Axl Rose: Dear Daily Mail, Usually they call that scenario "rape", not "had sex".' (180 upvotes, 14 downvotes) 'I get tired of hearing about people who think saying "Sorry" after they have done something awful, makes it ok...' (286 upvotes, 30 downvotes) 'I'll never think of Axl Rose the same again.' (186 upvotes, 73 downvotes) And so on. I think it's safe to say that the story did hurt his reputation and wasn't interpreted as a mere account of consensual sex by many/most readers. Also, Little Michelle has been accusing him of rape with that very word for years and he hasn't taken legal action against her either.

It wouldn't make sense to lie about what he said on the radio, because as you said it's easily verifiable. More likely, she just got two memories mixed up or something. People remember things incorrectly all the time even when nobody is deliberately lying. I think her apparent false memory hurts her credibility a little bit, but not to a point where I would conclude that the more memorable event in the story also never happened. After all, she's not suing him for what he said on the radio, but for sexually assaulting her.

In his answer, Axl does not deny the allegations that she was in his hotel room and in bed with him. He merely denies knowledge and information sufficient to form a belief about the truth of the allegations. In other words, a fan photo taken in passing is no longer the only thing he doesn't deny. I'm guessing he must have realized that there could be evidence to support that part of Sheila's story, such as testimony from the other model who was still in the room at that point, or even just from somebody who saw them arrive at the hotel, so denying it is not in his best interest.

Yes, and I think they all look a bit younger than what I would expect in 1991, especially Stuart.

I wonder where and when this picture was taken. Was it an earlier family reunion or could it have been taken in 1991?

It appears so, but on the youtube video at around 20:10, Jake Query said the show he attended was the second of the two nights at Deer Creek. He also said that Axl ended the show with the words, "Good night and thank you homeland." Those were the words Axl said at the end of the second night (I don't know whether he said the same thing at the end of the first night.) If by "family" he meant extended family, it makes no sense to write "his granny and family", because his granny is part of his extended family. Saying so doesn't make it so. We don't know with certainty whether they ever attended a concert or not.

It says "granny and family". Amy and Stuart worked for Axl and were around all the time, so most likely they were not the family members who were collected from Lafayette. That leaves the parents. Where did anybody say that he can't spend time with his grandmother (or with his mother and stepfather for that matter)? Yes, it's from his book. Interesting. This person attended the second Deer Creek show. I think Axl's family attended the show the night before.

This quote is from George Chin and he's talking about the show at the Deer Creek Music Center, Indiana, in May 1991. It appears that Axl was still on good terms with his family (at least superficially) at that point in time, which is kind of surprising, even more so if he had already told Zutaut that he was going to expose his stepfather for the monster he was. I think it's more likely that the interaction with Zutaut happened at some point later that year, but who knows. George Chin: "Indianapolis is where Axl and Izzy grew up. At this gig, Axl sent a stretch to collect his granny and family from Lafayette, to come to the gig. The driver had orders to bring back ice-cream and pizzas from this one store in Lafayette where Axl used to hang out when he was a kid, and after the show, Axl and his family had a real homely reunion. Axl's granny was an older female version of him. She knew all the words to all the Guns N' Roses songs and she sang along at the gig."

I think if anything it makes her story more believable that she's honest about the fact that she found him attractive and was the one to approach him. Being attracted to somebody and making a move does not equate consent to a violent sexual assault and does not make her the sexual predator in this situation. I'd like to think in this day and age it wouldn't go down well if Axl's defense was that she seduced him. Besides, if you go by Axl's version, none of this ever happened and the only thing he doesn't deny is the possibility of a fan picture taken in passing. If you don't believe her version, it would be better to go by his version than to accuse her of things that have not been alleged by anybody involved.

I agree for the most part, although I think there are also examples to the contrary and I don't think the artists you mention have survived entirely scot-free. Nick Carter claims he's already lost millions in revenue due to brand partners and concert promoters cutting ties with him and the band. It still remains to be seen what if any the consequences will be if he ends up losing the lawsuits against him. The same goes for Steven Tyler and Axl Rose. In Axl's case, I think he disappeared from the public eye in the 90s in part because of the lawsuits with Erin and Stephanie, and has never fully returned. Who knows what impact it will have on him if he has to go through a sexual assault trial now and is found liable. He might not need to be cancelled by the general public and the music industry. He might cancel himself and never make another public appearance.

It's going to be interesting to see whether the band will be able to continue as if nothing happened after everything is said and done. I could see it go either way. This lawsuit has definitely been reported very widely. A lot of people who didn't know about the allegations before are now aware. It could translate into at least some lost opportunities for the band.

I think when she said that it's important to make the industry safe for women, she wasn't just talking about her own incident.

How is that so obvious? If I was suing somebody, I'd probably do some research on the person. But as I said it's probably (not obviously) a coincidence.

Probably a coincidence but I wonder if Sheila is aware of Monsters (the song) and chose her words intentionally: "Kennedy, who was a former Penthouse model, has not backed down from her claims and has continued to allege that the assault has left her traumatized. “I have a voice and I don’t want to be called a victim. I want other women to hear this about Axl Rose, he’s a monster and he needs to be held accountable,” she said on Thursday. “And I’m here today to make sure that happens.” Kennedy noted that it was “difficult” to talk about the assault but she wanted to get her story out there. “I think it’s really important that we need to make this industry safe for women,” she explained. “There are so many victims that feel shame, that feel guilty. Feel like they when they go to sleep at night, they have nightmares and it needs to stop this monster needs to be stopped: Axl Rose.”"

Surprised to hear the Perhaps video was received so well around here. I watched it around the time it came out and about two seconds in I immediately thought people were going to hate it!

Any band by the name of Poodle Perm?