Lio

1 minute ago, janrichmond said:

who the hell is that?? what prompted that?? 

No one knows.

2 minutes ago, Len B'stard said:

If you're over the age of 8 and you still feel betrayed by things popstars do i think it's reasonable to assume that there's something profoundly wrong with your life.  Honestly, it's like all the little girls crying when Take That broke up, fuckin' get over it

True. Axl could never betray me

26 minutes ago, Len B'stard said:

Y'know what, I was wrong.  From what little can be gleaned from a short clip, i was wrong about my consistent assertion that they should never get back together cuz musicians kind of move apart and chemistry fades and dies, in my defence it probably does with many but that actually sounded like that band that I spent a most of my 20s on here ranting about how they were the dogs bollocks.  I think the club setting has a lot to do with it also but this is it, this is that thing that I've been talking about. 

Y'know what'd be fuckin' amazing?  A tour full of these, just randomly fuckin' pop up in a different club in a different place all across the world, a tour of suprise gigs if you like.  Dunno why but i think they'll suffer on the larger stage, i hope not for the simple sake of the fans paying all that fuckin' money to go see em but, yeah, that did sound alright, i must say.  Better than alright, good.

What i wanna know is, where all those cunts that was slagging off Slash all them years they were suckin' on NuGnR, where are ya eh, where are ya?   Nice to see em getting on too.  For all the chat and bad blood that went on you can see ginger bollocks missed it too, bless him.  Same for the rest of em really.  Tell ya what though, get Izzy in on that and you got a fuckin' blinder there. 

True. I wish I could see them in a venue like that, clearly having fun.

I don't get some of these posters feeling disappointed or betrayed. I was always an Axl fan and went along with everything he did, but looking at these (shitty quality) clips, I don't see how anyone can deny, this is how it's meant to be. It feels so natural and so good. And I feel like for the first time in years, I see Axl being happy and at ease.

I was so scared of Axl fucking it up or there not being chemistry on stage or it feeling forced, but I couldn't be happier with what I'm seeing up till now. Much better than I anticipated or dared hoping for.

7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

A good article on Belgium's struggle with extremism: http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/21/europe/belgium-terror-fight-molenbeek/

"We're talking about third- and fourth-generation [immigrants]; these youngsters are born in Belgium, even their fathers and mothers are born in Belgium, and still they are open for these kind of messages. This is not normal -- in the U.S., the second generation was the President; here, the fourth generation is an IS fighter -- so that is really something we have to work on."

 

Another Ali crying about the big, bad, racist Belgians. Sure, there are stories like that. But in equally as many cases, they have fucked things up themselves. They just love to play the victim. Don't get the job? Racist! Someone makes a remark about you parking your car on the pavement? Racist!

I know endless stories of people giving immigrants a job, where they refuse to turn up, refuse to do as their boss tells them et cetera. If they get fired, it's always racism.

I know and don't deny there's racism, but very often it stems from people having had bad experiences with people of a certain background. That's what makes them hesitant to employ anyone named Mohammed. Very sad for all the good Mohammed's out there, but it doesn't come from nothing.

The problem lots of people here have, is that North Africans aren't interested in integrating, in belonging here. They're so many here, hardly a minority. (In Antwerp, more than half of the kidfs in school are Muslim.) They get by fine just mingling with their own. They're not interested in our music festivals, not interested in our cultural events. You hardly ever see a North African at public events. They can't be bothered. They came here in huge groups and they cling together. If one North African has an altercation or discussion with a white person, other North Africans will always take the North African's side, never mind who's in the right or who's in the wrong. In the end, they always support their own. That's what you see in Molenbeek and the other Brussels suburbs. That's why Abdeslam can hide for four months. Because in the end, they don't care about Belgium, they don't care about our law, they care about their own in the first place.

Note: when I say all, I don't mean literally all. But the vast majority anyway.

1 minute ago, Len B'stard said:

Can i ask you something else?  MB was talking about an on-going issue with North African youths and criminality and such, reaching back to like the prior generation etc.  What has been the nature of those issues, I mean just like street violence or just generally being anti social fuckers or the aggressive propagation of Islam or...? 

From what I know, it's usually drug dealing, burglary, carjackings, robberies and stuff. I don't really think it had a lot to do with propagating Islam as such. I mean, there were lots of problems with North Africans not respecting girls or women, yelling abusive language, but I always saw that more as the result of cultural differences. I don't think they were so religious to start with. Like this Ibrahim guy was a gangster, robbing and shooting at police with a kalashnikov. I don't think Allah was on his mind that much back in 2010, when he did all that stuff.

1 minute ago, Len B'stard said:

How do the police figure in the equation?  I mean do they handle em successfully?

Not sure about Friday night. There was some indignation over the weekend because it hadn't been in the press at all. I think a lot is kept from us as to not polarise any further, but I don't think it does a lot of good. If it does come out, you're left wondering about what else you're being kept in the dark about.

I think one or two were arrested on Wednesday, but I suppose they're being let go immediately.

Just now, Len B'stard said:

Tell me, is there some kinda response of the people?  I mean if its kinda concentrated and they know where its coming from, in Molenbeek, not that I'm at all advocating mob mentality...do they not just go in and fuck those people up?

Not really. It's not only Molenbeek, but Schaarbeek, Vorst, Anderlecht... You can't fuck up all of Brussels, I suppose.

And I think it would take quite a mob to go down there. In Molenbeek, hundreds of young muslims threw bottles and stones at the police after Abdeslam was arrested last Friday night. In Anderlecht, some muslims ran amok after one minute's silence was held on Wedsnesday. They attacked the press, I believe.

Just now, Len B'stard said:

I thought Genie came from Germany.

Well, let's say Genie's from continental Western Europe then.

19 hours ago, Graeme said:

I'm sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean to... I never said that it was impossible for a white European to know nothing about Muslims, but have you seen discussion in this thread about the difference between cultures in the Arab nations, Iran, Pakistan or Bangladesh? I haven't. I have, however, seen discussion of 'Muslims' as a single homogeneous foreign bloc who have come to settle in (almost to colonise) Europe and that there is a high likelihood of them being terrorists on an individual basis, therefore Europe should shut them all out.

There has been indiscriminate projection of values onto Muslims in this thread. JeanGenie said that he believes the majority of Muslims condone these attacks, which is a pretty extreme accusation, but there are no Muslims here to refute or address that statement... It's been good to have Len and Amir in this thread because they can at least talk about practising Muslims whom they know, who don't want to kill every non-believer they encounter.

I'm just saying it's worthwhile remembering that the people who claimed responsibility for the attack yesterday are the same organisation that the vast majority of Syrian refugees are fleeing for their lives.

I was in Glasgow airport when two radical Islamic terrorists drove a Jeep loaded with nail bombs into the front door. I was stuck in there for a whole day as the police imposed a lockdown, so I'm not speaking from the point of view of someone who has never experienced a terrorist attack. But that was one day out of my whole life, I rationalise that to myself and realise that the statistical probability of being in the wrong place at the wrong time again is so small as to be insignificant. It's definitely not a large enough probability to deter me from flying, nor to start treating every Muslim I meet as a potential terrorist, it would make more sense to be terrified of dying every time I get in a car.

Well, we're talking about 'our' Muslims of course, and then only the ones that are causing problems. I just felt offended because it seemed that whatever experience some of us had was dismissed because we didn't stipulate that not every single Muslim wants us all dead. We're talking about the terrorist attacks, an acute danger. I can't be specifying in every post that 'the west' has done so many wrong things and of course I don't think a Syrian baby, woman or man doesn't deserve to live in peace. I feel sometimes things have to be said and sometimes there's a need to be blunt about it. There is a problem, and it's always the same people causing it.

The huge difference to me between the threat of a terrorist attack and dying from lightning or in a car crash, is that in the first case, people are actually out to kill me. Other people, who I don't know, who I've never met or done anything wrong, are out to kill me in an atrocious, cowardly way. In my mind, that's a huge difference. We're talking about people who grew up here, safe and well, people who got an education (many of them couldn't be bothered to finish it, but that's another story), got a lot of chances, while not denying that they probably were confronted with racism, but they decided to turn on us and kill us and try to destroy our society. That to me is a million times more scary than getting in the car and maybe get hit, or coming out of bed and maybe breaking my neck.

I'm sorry you had to go through that. I'm not sure I could rationalise it like you can. It probably wouldn't have detered me from flying when I was younger either, but becoming a mum has changed all that. I'm trying not to let it influence me too much, but I won't be flying any time soon, and I won't be going to places where huge crowds are expected, rational or not.

17 hours ago, Dan H. said:

I didn't read anything Graeme said as being insulting to you personally man. Obviously you have had experiences on the front line of this conflict, and while you provide valuable insight onto the topical comings and goings of this terrible attack, and its aftermath, most of us (including Graeme, self admittedly, in his own post) are not privy to the cultural implications and motivations of Islam. For the most part it seems like the Muslim community is pretty quiet, private, and close knit, and having Amir and Len provide insight that most of us folks with Western, white, and middle to upper class experiences may not have been exposed to.

 

Being white doesn't mean you 'understand nothing' nor should you be so sensitive to Graeme's comment man. There is certainly insight into the culture of Muslims that yes, can only be fully understood and realized by those who grew up or were constantly surrounded by that culture, and in some ways that insight is more valuable than bearing witness to the attack first hand.

 

Btw, pretty sure Graeme is a white dude. Apologies if I'm wrong on that.

We'll just agree to disagree then. Of course the insight of people of Muslim descent is important and valuable, but I'll try to explain it in another way. I was raised a christian, a catholic. But when I hear about catholics in Ireland and how they're raised, or when I hear about Christians still believing today that God created the world a few thousand years ago, I'm baffled. I can't for the life of me relate to that. So I couldn't possibly give any insight on how they are feeling or what they are thinking. I don't know if you're religious or an atheist, but if you're an atheist, I'm sure you could tell much more relevant things about Christians in the US or the area where you live, than I could.

I think we've all agreed on 'Muslims' being a diverse group. Some of us, posters from France, Belgium and the Netherlands, have expressed they have similar experiences with mostly North-African immigrants (of whatever generation). So, yes, I do believe we have more insight in those particular groups that live here than Amir or Lenny. Just like you have more insight in American Christians than I have. We don't live in an ivory tower and even if there are ghettos, I at least come across and interact with Muslims on a daily basis. We do live together here.

(No worries about the gender mix-up. And I do know Graeme's white )

17 hours ago, Len B'stard said:

Lio's a girl by the way.  I think her perspective was more like, here and now, with the bodies of dead Belgians still warm, the last thing she wants to hear about is attempting to understand the demographic from where these problems are coming from, i can understand that.  Still dont mean Graeme was being out of order or anything, sensitive times and that yknow?

Although, bodies of dead Belgians still warm might not cut it. As of now, two days after the attacks, no 'bodies' have been formally identified. (Although one Peruvian and one Moroccan woman, both living in Belgium, another Belgian woman and two men are said to be among the deadly victims.) I suppose they're still trying to put the pieces together, as gruesome as it may sound.

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

But noone is saying that. What I am saying is that Belgium has failed utterly. I have already stated 5 reasons why your country has the largest problem with Muslim terrorists in Europe. The rest of Europe must learn from your mistakes. Well, we have all failed to various degrees. We have been naive, we have been trustworthhy, we have been blind. We must learn and improve.

JeanGenie is from France. I'm the Belgian

It seems MB, JeanGenie and I have roughly the same experiences, so that's the Netherlands, France and Belgium.

6 hours ago, Graeme said:

 

I like that you and Amir are here as secular, fair minded guys from a Muslim background because otherwise this thread would literally be a load of white Europeans/Americans indiscriminately projecting values onto a group of cultures they (and I definitely include myself in this bracket) don't understand. The thing is, I know enough Muslims (practising and lapsed) who're kind, considerate and generous human beings to be prepared not to pre-judge them as a group based on the actions of terrorists. I know how I would feel if I was judged totally wrongly, based on beliefs people thought I had because I fit into a particular demographic and I find the thought abhorrent. When you take that principle and apply it to denying humanitarian assistance to people who've been literally bombed out of their homes and fled from an organisation which will have no qualms in conducting their extermination... I find it hard to justify given the minute chances of anyone in a western nation actually experiencing a terrorist attack on a day-to-day basis.

 

Really? Really? Jesus, sorry for being white. I know I'm only white and I can't possibly know anything about what's happening in my own country and how a part of the muslim population here is. Thank you for telling me how I ignorant I am and how we're all projecting values onto a group of cultures. Thing is, your post is a prime example of where it's gone wrong.

I had quite a few family members and friends in Brussels yesterday and their chances of being in a terrorist attack were a bit bigger than minute, thank you very much. Just like our fellow poster Stoner's, actually. (Not everyone lives on an island.) Thankfully, they were all unharmed. If they'd been less lucky, they might have lost a limb or their lives, like many others did, due to nail bombs specifically designed to maim and kill as many innocent men, women and children, of any race and religion, as possible. We have been living here with soldiers on our doorsteps, for months now. There have been many searches, many weapons found, nail bombs, kalashnikovs and the likes. Thankfully, there haven't been attacks on a day-to-day basis, but yesterday proved that the threat is very real. We have to live with it every day. Even if I'm only white and understand nothing.

Oh, and I really appreciate Amir's and Len's posts just as I appreciate many other valuable posters here. They all help me see things in a broader perspective, maybe see it from another side. It's funny how you say not all muslims are the same (of course they aren't), but somehow promote Len and Amir to be the muslim authorities, while just dismissing other people's experiences in their own lives.

6 minutes ago, Graeme said:

Rightists, how many middle-eastern countries do we have to invade or bomb before our foreign policies are changed? Is there a magic number that we get to where you say, yeah, maybe we should do something?

Inb4: "That's stupid and not a valid comparison." The Iraq war created a lot more dead innocent men, women and children than any random act of terrorism in a Western country has ever done. Saddam was a murderous despot, but we went in under false pretences and effectively replaced him with the breeding ground for ISIS, nothing in Iraq got better after 2003. Then we have the audacity to tell people from the region to fuck off when they come running from an organisation which brutally murders (and literally crucifies) people, an organisation which the West helped create...

Treating the middle-east as some sort of homogeneous hell-hole of equally hateful and inscrutable brown people who have to be shut out of virtuous white, democratic, Christian/Secular Europe and simultaneously bombed to fuck, isn't going to make this problem go away. It's only going to make it worse, but I suppose it depends on whether or not you feel babies born in Syria and babies born in Belgium equally deserve the right to grow up in a peaceful world and make the most of their potential.

I'm not saying we should say fuck off to war refugees. Few people are saying fuck off to war refugees. We should say fuck off to people not respecting our values though. We should say fuck off to people who demand that we adapt our values to theirs and who have no respect whatsoever for us and take every chance to criticise western values.

Yeah, it's always the same group that causes problems. Not the Chinese, not the Jews, not the Latin-Americans, not the Congolese. I'm sure those people are confronted with racism as well, but they don't plant bombs or cheer for other innocent lives lost.

Politicians are to blame as well. Always tiptoeing around, being scared of being called a racist, or just being scared of losing votes. Molenbeek's old mayor has a lot to answer for. During his reign, everything got completely out of hand. Police were told to leave muslims alone during the Ramadan, because then 'they were hungry, and you should leave them alone'. They were basically allowed to do anything and everything they wanted. And in return he got to play mayor for a few decades.

I think this is the time to make it clear: we stand for our values, and if you don't like them, you'll have to leave. It's common sense, really. I would never move to a country that has completely different values that clash with mine. We shouldn't be afraid to stand for our own values.

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

It is us against them. But them being those that kill innocents, and not anyone else.

What about the huge network they obviously have, in Brussels and elsewhere? It's not just a few jihadis. They have a whole network of supporters. Terrorists can knock on just about any door in Brussels and they will be protected. I know not all muslims/Arabs are like that, but I start to realise there's lots more that support IS than I thought before.

2 minutes ago, st0n3r said:

I was on the metroline that was attacked this morning. I got off and took a taxi to work. I was very close to the metro station where the bomb went off. Heard explosions afterwards too, but apparently, those were controlled. 

Another update: in some schools there are muslim children celebrating. 

Glad you're okay Be careful and stay safe!

6 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Abandoning important principles of western socities to fight those that oppose them? Sounds backwards to me.

Let's put things in perspective. You want us to skip normal legal procedures, reintroduce capital punishment and torture because of a death toll of, what, a few hundreds in Europe these last years? That's it? Isn't that completely succumbing to panic and emotions and throwing the baby out with the wash water? I mean, as far as dangers to socity goes ISIS and international terrorism is still a footnote. Yes, it is horrible. Yes, it is awful. Yes, we have to stop it. But more people die from falling out of their beds than from terrorist attacks so should we really abandon what makes our societies worth protecting because of this very minor threat? And it is not like this is new to Europe (as someone overly excited people here seem to think). Europe has a long tradition of terror, just think of IRA and Red Arny Faction, ASALA and many, many more, who have killed dozens upon dozens of people in Europa the last 100 years. We have survived these threats just like we will survive what is happening now, without changing for the worse in the process.

 

This is different though. We've had terrorism here in Belgium before, that's true. And I don't want to minimize IRA and RAF at all, but they seemed to me more national, for lack of a better word. This is so much bigger than what we've seen before. This is a whole group of people just trying to destroy western civilization, trying to kill as many people as possible.

I think the time to minimize this is truly over. Yes, a LOT of people hate us, and they're everywhere, radicalized people all over the world, in Syria, but in Brussels, Paris, London and wherever too. Don't you think this is bigger than RAF and IRA?

In Molenbeek a lot of people knew where Salah was, they hid him for over four months! They all chose the side of a terrorist, not that of the law, not that of our western civilisation, a civilisation they are supposed to be a part of. I'm sorry, I feel very much like this is us against them at this time.

I'm not saying we should go back to death penalty or anything like that, but I do admit I have a very hard time not being too emotional. No more pussyfooting. Young Arabs throwing stones and bottles at the police because they arrested Salah? Throw them in jail. Women offering Salah a place to stay in the home they got from the council? Put her out on the street. It's time for action.

This is an acute problem. Investigate where it's all gone wrong later.

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

Nuke Belgium?

That's the problem. They're among us.

A lot of ambulances and fire trucks are now leaving the airport, to possibly go to the centre of Brussels, where there are possible explosions in two subway stations.

Brussels under attack, it seems. After the airport, now possible explosions in subway stations in Brussels.

And a possible terrorist attack at Brussels Airport 45 minutes ago. Possibly many victims. The departures hall is completely devastated, one reporter says.

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/712177667823570944/pu/vid/360x640/jT0ZvNnPmLPVM8ut.mp4

8 hours ago, Caught_in_a_Coma said:

Fascinating info from that quote you posted.  Do you have any more context on the quote?  Like Slash had songs with lyrics done and all he wanted was Axl to sing what was written?

It's in the Axl chat here:

I'm glad you're happy, McCoy. Congratulations on your upcoming anniversary! Everyone goes through some rough patches once in a while. I never thought you were a jackass either The people that thought you were one, could've just ignored your posts.

21 minutes ago, Caught_in_a_Coma said:

I definitely agree.  This line always makes me think.  Axl was the singer.  Is Axl repeating something someone said to him that really hurt him?  Did someone in the band tell him to just shut up and sing at one point?

I always thought it was Duff and Slash. But in the chats, Axl says at least Slash was saying something similar to shut up and sing.

Quote

That was denied and I didn’t walk till several months after having 3 to 4 hour phone conversations nearly every day with Slash trying to reach a compromise. I was specifically told no lyrics, no melodies, no changes to anything and to sing what I was told or fuck off.

Can anyone tell me when Fernando came here telling us about news in 2 to 4 months? Wasn't that before Ashba left? Or was it right after?

I wouldn't have thought it would take such a short time to get it all arranged, thinking back to the dvd and the genius manager remark. It seems weird they brokrer a reunion in a few months, while the dvd took years. Then again, maybe it's best to do it all quickly, the more time passes, the more things can go wrong.