Euchre
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Posts posted by Euchre
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I've got part of Perfect Crime (and I think Brownstone) from the UCLA gig with Chilli Peppers. Can't remember how I got them though.
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How about instead of going bigger and for more, go the other way and release something smaller....like make 1 really good CD out of UYI ? I’m sure no one has thought of that before.
Seriously though, I’m not really a UYI fan, in fact there are aspects I really dislike, so mine will come from left field. To me it was a bad time for the band, most of the material was written with Adler, pre Dizzy/Matt and then when it was recorded it seemed quite dysfunctional with obviously Adler missing aside from Civil War, Izzy missing at times and as a result Slash’s influence growing on the guitar side and Axl’s influence over shadowing overall, so the balance the original band had was completely fucked. Then there are songs that come across more as solo tunes than band efforts. So coming from a point of loving Appetite and Lies and seeing the potential for UYI to really be part of that era before things got fucked up, well with a box set I’d try and make things right....hence
1) You can’t deny the era happened so some sort of remaster of the original 2 albums
2) Have the 4 “musicians” pick their top 12 rockers (ie Slash, Duff, Izzy, Steve), no covers, have Steve re do the drums, Izzy record where he is missing, strip them back to raw, cut the piano to only the tunes where it really adds something, perhaps rename this album, definitely new cover art.
3) Axl takes his 4 ballads and Does whatever he wants to do to modernise and the becomes the ballad EP
4) Do whatever they want to do with the rest of the tracks on another CD
5) Given 2 still won’t be real in that part of what made Appetite feel so right was the tempo shifts, put together whatever demos or rehearsals of the original band doing theses songs
6) Beyond that do whatever, it’s already long enough and I’m bored
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On 24/10/2019 at 8:49 AM, Blackstar said:
I guess that magazine was referring to the Skin N' Bones tour in 1993 (February 23 to July 17). One in a Million 100% wasn't played at any of those shows, though.
I found the book it was Over The Top the True Story of Guns N Roses by Mark Putterford, page 108 for those that have it.
The show he is referring to is the first show at Milton Keynes 29 May 03.
He says he was backstage at both shows and on the first night they played One In A Million and replaced it with Used To Love Her on the second night. He runs through the set list each night and I took a look at GnrOnTour and the set lists are identical aside from this point (and one song he didn’t mention on one of the nights that GnrOnTour has).
GNrOnTour says there is audio of the show so I assume someone out there has it and Used To Love her is correct and the author made a mistake, but it is certainly strange that someone so familiar with the band who was at the actual shows and writing a book would make such a mistake.
Any chance the song was cut from the audio ?
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1 hour ago, Amish said:
Are you sure One in a Million wasn't played 3 times? Anyone?
I do have a magazine article or book somewhere that talks about a series of shows during the Illusions tour where they would bring a couch on stage and do some songs acoustically. The article says they did One In A Million on the first night but then dropped it.
I’m not so familiar with the UYI era so can’t really narrow down where that was, but some else may be able to. From memory I think it was one of the latter legs of the tour.
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The reasoning along the lines of ”Raz loves Trump, Duff disses Trump so therefore Raz accuses Axl of rape” - is exactly what I’m talking about when I refer to flawed logic. Does that really sound like reasonable rationale to anyone ?
If Raz just wanted to go after Duff I’m sure he has heaps of ammo to do so, he doesn’t need to bring Axl into and burn those bridges & also need to pretend he made an error in his book (I mean if he is making it up now because mad about a Trump dis presumably you believe the original account in the book was the true one and he has pretended he made an error to make things fit). It seems quite some lengths to go to and a bit of self sabotage over someone dissing a politician.
The far more logical explanation is the one he has put forward - that he became aware of new information about an incident he was on the fringes of and his conscious has gnawed at him and he has come out in support of someone he feels has been wronged - and done so at personal expense in terms of friendships, reputation and having to admit to errors in his book. That can’t have been an easy step and on the errors he went into detail in explaining how they came about and his reasoning sounds plausible to me. Back to my original post this is why I said Duff should look to the actions Raz has taken if he wants to learn how to be a man as it takes a huge amount of fortitude and humility to take the steps he has and at personal sacrifice.
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I feel there is some flawed logic going on in this thread or an desire by some to see through anything that could point to this being true - although given this is GNR forum I suppose it is hardly surprising that people don’t want an image they have built shattered.
What I mean by this is :
1) Raz has confirmed this is the Michelle that was regularly hanging around the studio and a friend of the band - yet some seem to be directing questions at her suggesting she prove she even knew the band
2) Raz has also confirmed that this is the girl the incident happened to & that she was 15 at the time. At the very least all parties quoted ie Michelle, Raz and GNR members themselves have said that she ends up naked in the alley. By any sane measure a 15 year old girl having her clothes ripped off by adult men and being thrown into the street is pretty disturbing. It doesn’t matter what the reason was, or whatever the girl did or didn’t do - doing this to a 15 year old is a low act and I’d be surprised if that alone wasn’t criminal. There is no justification for that sort of behaviour or reaction.
3) I’m not sure if this has been mentioned in the thread but there is definitely an Axl quote out there where he talks about ‘escorting people out of the Hell House and by escort I mean drag them down the alley naked’. I’m paraphrasing but someone I’m sure can find the exact quote. Up until now i had always assumed he was talking about grown men they beat up but now it takes on a really creepy tone and quite disturbing really. The quote makes it sound like he is bragging about it and he obviously neglects to mention that (if the allegations are true) he is referring to a 15 year old girl - so he is at least self aware enough to know how bad including that part would look.
4) Other girls have been mentioned in the thread with similar stories. Again I’m pretty sure there is an Erin Everly quote out from a court testimony there that sounds eerily similar about being tied up, assaulted and locked in a closet from memory. So the suggestions that this is out of character or a one off or an implausible story are really ignoring the similar stories that are out there - unless all these girls have banded together in some great conspiracy. Similarly the suggestions about motives - some have sought legal recourse some haven’t - so not all can be put down to a motive about money. So trying to assert that all these girls have made this up looking for a payday doesn’t hold. I’m well aware none of this proves Axl did anything, but all I’m saying is there are plenty of stories out there of him behaving in a pretty consistent manner so to make out this is completely implausable is to be wilfully ignoring other stories by unrelated people. There is the stairwell incident in Chicago as well that both Slash and Steve have confirmed as first hand witnesses.
5) The fact that Raz has come out with this also is reason to pause and consider. To use his own words after reading his book I thought the guy came off like an Axl kiss ass. He certainly doesn’t come across like he has an axe to grind. So for someone peripheral to the situation and at least impartial if not a GNR/Axl advocate to come out the way they have certainly must mean there is genuine belief in his mind that this is plausible.
6) All this talk of presumption of innocence as though it means Michelle can’t speak up. Correct me if I’m wrong - but is Axl in jail for this without trial ? If he isn’t then he is been granted the presumption of innocence & he is 100% entitled to it. It doesn’t extend to whether people can or can’t make allegations or whether people on a message board are free to form their own views as to the veracity of such claims. If it did no one could ever make an allegation and no one would be ever prosecuted for a crime. The evidentiary hurdle in a criminal trial is beyond reasonable doubt. In a civil trial it is balance of probabilities. Similarly presumption of innocence is in relation to criminal proceedings.
7) There seems to be a push by some to make Michelle seem like this crazy girl making up stories full of inconsistencies. I’m of the other view - she comes across quite rational and goes into great detail on things that I think would be hard to do if you weren’t actually there. (Ie describing layouts, people). I think it would be difficult to lie with that level of detail.
8) I wouldn’t expect other band members to speak up on it even if they did witness it. I’m pretty sure there is an Izzy quote where he talks about selling both drugs and girls and from memory Geffen made him break up with his underage girlfriend when they got signed. The point is more than likely a few of them would be in trouble is past actions started being brought up - and as much as they know about Axl, Axl would know about them. Let’s face it Slash and Duff are primarily motivated by money these days so they aren’t going to give up their golden goose. Same with Dizzy.
9) The last point I wanted to make is the same one I tried to make on my other post in this topic. No one can no for sure what happened in that room except for those that were there. I think most would agree that just the parts confirmed by all parties are pretty bad and would have caused huge emotional damage for Michelle. If the rest of it is true it is one of the worst possible crimes out there and would have been horrific for her. Now even if you think there is only a 1% chance of that part being true - do you want to run the risk of being the person ripping into someone that went through that. How are you going to feel if it turns out it’s true. Sure Michelle has come to a public forum, and a GNR one at that - but she clearly isn’t crazy and this can’t be immediately dismissed as the ravings of a deranged individual - so sure ask questions but I’d think for your own sake let alone hers to do it in a pretty respectful and balanced way.
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The Slash quotes from earlier in the thread sound like a different incident. He talks about going up to the bungalow, which sounds more like the house most known from the black and white photo with the keg. The Hell House studio definitely wouldn't be described as a bungalow. Also, this would put the timing much closer to the release of Appetite and hence more likely to be referenced in the liner notes. So just like Raz initially merged 2 separate incidents, I suspect the same is being done here.
Way more importantly though, to Little Michelle it sounds so horrible what you have been through and I hope you have been able to find a way to work through it. As much as I like the music it was always well known the guys were low life's (as much as ppl like Duff try to re-invent the history now), but this is next level again.
As much as people say Axl is entitled to a presumption of innocence - which he is and he hasn't been jailed without trial over this, so he's got that. This story is consistent with plenty of other things that have been written / come out in court (ie Everly, Seymour) and Michelle goes into a lot of detail that fits with other things I've read, so it all certainly seems plausible. I think it is worthwhile people pausing and considering this because the temptation will be to jump to the defence of someone they have been a fan of for a long time - but the risk the other way, that is of attacking someone who has gone through something so horrific for speaking the truth is one you probably don't want to get wrong either.
Back to the original point of the thread Duff already looked pretty stupid and hypocritical in the virtue signalling he has been doing of late, given how much is on record to the contrary and how illogical his argument is (ie if we say something in the past understand it is a joke and/or shit talking and we aren't like that, but if someone else says similar assume they are serious and it is how they are), but this definitely makes it worse. Duff is big on this 'how to be a man' business, well he should be taking a look to Raz as he certainly hasn't manned up the way Raz has - it would have taken a lot to take the time to look into things, admit you were wrong, admit you made mistakes in the book and publicly call out a famous friend.
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DJ was a real person in the sense not just someone else’s nickname, and its not Del James. Marc Canter verified it on this forum a few years back but said the guy wasn’t around real long.
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This is what I have from Steven post GN'R :
Roadcrew did either an album or demos of which 6 with Steven on drums slowly got released on 3 Vain albums over the years (and 2 or maybe 3 other Roadcrew tunes without Steven on drums):
1) Move On It - Breakdown, Family & Get Up
2) Fade - Can't Get Back (also includes the Roadcrew song "Dee Dee" without Steven on drums & "Holdin On" may also be a Roadcrew tune)
3) Enough Rope - Cindy, Worship You (also includes the Roadcrew Song "Enough Rope" without Steven on drums).
I also have a bootleg video of Roadcrew from the Limelight in NY with Tool opening. If you google you'll find the poster for this show. They play 6 of the songs above (all the ones on the Vain albums with Steven except for Worship You, but they do play Enough Rope). They also do the Vain tunes Icy & Beat the Bullet and a cover of Voodoo Child.
After that he was on the Adler's Appetite EP which was released and you mention above (6 songs)
Then came a 4 track Adler's Appetite EP with Sheldon Tarsha singing that never got released, but I have the tunes they are :
1) Keep Satisfied
2) Wreck of My Life
3) Execution Style
4) Sadder Days
Around this time he did a session with Izzy and I think they did 3 tracks, but only 1 has got out there : "Do You Love Me". (I don't know what the others are).
I think next was "Baby Can't Drive" from the Slash album.
Then I think it was the Alive EP which you have details on. (3 songs, I won't count the instrumental version)
Then the Adler Z' Nuff EP, which has the details in the post above. (5 songs)
Then the Adler album. (11 songs)
So all up, I've got 37 studio tracks from Adler post GN'R, plus 2 or 3 Roadcrew songs which got released without Steven on Drums and most likely there are a couple more tunes from the sessions with Izzy.
ETA : seems I missed one 'All Day and All of the Night' with Chip Z' Nuff and Robin Zander
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I think both sides have clearly stated their positions, and perhaps they may be largely irreconcilable hence the continued debate.
It is pretty clear Izzy's position is there needs to be an equal split of $. I suspect his thoughts are we started this band together, the whole legacy is from the music I helped write, record and tour to build the band up. (Let's face it, if there is no Appetite, the band isn't touring stadiums now.) Back then it was one for all, all for one, everything shared and if we are going to do it again, this is how it needs to be. It's a fair argument. (And also applies to Steven).
The other side obviously wasn't prepared to do an equal split. I suspect their point is we retained ownership & subsequent obligations to keep the entity functioning. And by functioning I don't mean touring - certainly there would be arguments about whether that did more damage than good. I mean the annual cycle of dealing with accountants, lawyers and the whole business side of things that goes along with an entity the size of GNR. This is a fair argument as well.
So how do you reconcile this ? I wonder if the only way we would ever see a reunion would be for the $ to be completely taken off the table. For example a one off show where all the proceeds go to charity.
I think the thing that should be acknowledged and the facade dropped on is that this band is all about 'the music' or 'integrity' or 'putting on the best possible show'. That is BS, all that is now secondary to the $. If any of the former were true, they would have somehow worked out the $ issue as it would be secondary. Ironically, the guy who cops the most crap (ie Steven) the the only one that doesn't care about the $ and just wants to play with best lineup.
It's also sad, that 5 people, from one of the most successful bands can't put $ aside. They don't need more of it, and are basically giving up something special in the pursuit of more of what they most likely don't need. I can understand a struggling band needing to do things for cash, but once your at the position GNR are at, is it better to do something that you really want to do even if it doesn't maximise your $ return or accept a little less of something you most likely don't need and do exactly what you want to do ?
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Duff missed a few shows in 88 and was replaced by Haggis aka Kid Chaos from the Cult. Could it be that guy ?
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56 minutes ago, Sydney Fan said:
Fine points ronin, this highlights why guns was more productive and successful under niven than DG. Also im sure axl didnt want the tour booked because he was dealing or wanting to deal with mental issues first. Those theatre shows were great to get the band back in the public eye again which i thought was a good move.
If my understanding is correct having that tour booked was instrumental in GNR having their contract renegotiated with Geffen. Apparently David Geffen had never renegotiated a contract but was desperate for the Illusions to be out as he was trying to sell Geffen and wanted maximum value for the sale. Nivens angle was to say either you renogitate or we’ll just stay out on tour and the albums will keep getting pushed back and booked the tour to prove it. This forced David Geffen to the table and the contract got renegotiated. So if that was the final straw pretty uncool to fire a manager for taking steps to secure you a whole heap more cash.
A couple of other key things Niven did that haven’t been mentioned :
* got the Jungle video produced by piggy backing off a Great white video shoot which was intrumental for GNR (imagine if that video never existed).
* I don’t know this for sure but would expect the same happened with the Ritz show (ie piggy backed off Great White)
* most importantly if Axl was a no show he made the rest of the band take the stage (eg Alice Cooper LA show) or had the band fire Axl. Again not so well know but Axl was fired a few times in the 86-88 period but they always bought him back. Why was this important ? Well it stopped Axl showing up late. If the first time he was late in the Illusion era the band just went on and walked off at their allotted time, there is no way Axl would have been late again (or at least late repeatedly)
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40 minutes ago, MildlyArtistic said:Doug quoting the Eminem song 'Stan' without a single hint of irony regarding the subject matter of the song honestly makes this letter for me.
Also, has GNR ever had a manager that isn't either a complete wingnut or a prick cruising by on nepotism?
I think Niven was the unsung hero of GN'R success. Before he came along the label was thinking about dropping them, things were that dire. During his 5 year tenure they got our Appetite, Lies, started the Illusion tour and the albums were all but complete. They haven't been anywhere near as prolific since. He was also behind a lot of the early strategy around LLAS, build the momentum in the UK early & he salvaged the Aerosmith tour which was vital for the band. Most of all though he kept it a collaborative effort, represented all 5 as GN'R and kept Axl in check from taking over.....the one thing he couldn't pull off was stopping the drug use spiralling out of control, which ultiamtely led to Adler's departure and then the dominos began to fall....Niven...Izzy....creativity ceases.
It is often overlooked how many personnel changes there were in that year or so from mid-90 to mid-91. Started out with 5 guys and Niven, ends with half gone (Adler, Izzy, Niven) and Sorum, Gilby, Reed, Goldstein in. (sure Goldstein was already there as tour manager). That is massive change and not surprising things took a completely different course there after.
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4 hours ago, ludurigan said:
yes yes yes it is very very important to be an icon and people need to know who you are and people need to be able to buy t-shirts with your face on them!
I posted this in another thread but given the t-shirt comments thought I should post it here as well. In the early days every GNR shirt had all 5 members on it, aside from these white ones they brought out with Lies on the back, but a different shirt/song for each member on the front.
You don't really see or hear about them anymore. But there was an official GNR shirt with Adler and only Adler on the front, and people knew who he was !! Because the dynamic has shifted so much over the last 28 years where it is so much about Axl and Slash, but back then all 5 members mattered pretty close to equally.
The shot below is from the August 1990 edition of Hot Metal, the local metal mag in Oz, obviously the shirts I'm talking about are on the left.
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I went back through a few old mags this morning and below are a couple of cool links relevant to this time period to illustrate some of the points I've been making.
This one was from around Dec 88, the 1st Issue of Hot Metal had an interview with Slash about the upcoming Oz tour, and in it you can see they are still spelling out who each band member is, in this case Axl, since as I mentioned it hadn't become the Axl & Slash show yet at this point (or at least in Oz).
http://www.imagebam.com/image/57a5bf963245354
This next one is from May 90 and is the first mention I recall of Adler being out. This and the next one shows this was followed pretty closely at the time as all the members were considered pretty important. The second link is from August 90, which shows it could often take a few months for info to filter through. You also see the sarcasm about the album in both the articles. Initially the follow up was due to be recorded in mid/late 88 but then the Japan / Oz tour kind of messed that up, then there was strong expectation of a recording/release around mid 89 and this one was quite strong. Once it came and went and things drifted into 90 with still no album in sight many were wondering if it would ever happen
http://www.imagebam.com/image/52fc5f963247764
http://www.imagebam.com/image/da11a9963245414
Lastly, half of the t-shirt spread from the Aug 1990 edition. You can see the 'Stoned in L.A.' shirt here. I remember there was another shirt with a skull on it that had needles and other things sticking out from the skull. Every GNR shirt I can recall from 87-90 that had band members on the front had every band member - like I said they really were considered an equal team. The only exception to this is the white shirts you see down the left edge where one was made for each band member. You don't see/hear much about these anymore, but if I remember correctly these were available either very close to or right up to the UYI releases and then all these Appetite/Lies era shirts disappeared and were replaced by the UYI designs (ie you could still get the Adler / Izzy shirts well after they left the band).
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On 23/08/2018 at 12:11 PM, ludurigan said:
appreciate your answer mate
but a 3rd guitarist?
makes even less sense!
it would make total sense if they asked Pete to guest on an album, or on whatever, but to join the band?
i cant see that
besides, i am not sure about his age but he seems to be at least 10 or 15 years older than everyone in GNR
that would make even less sense to ask a guy this much "older" to join the band
I was going through some old mags, and found the original article I remember seeing about Pete....some time later there was another article in a magazine saying both Pete and Mick were asked to join but I can't remember the mag or the year, if I ever come across it again I'll post it, but below is the first one I saw ever about Pete :
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5 hours ago, Blackstar said:
There were other things that were known though. I have the opposite recollection about OIAM and drugs. The drugs weren't a big issue for the rock crowd or the press here, because it was kind of seen as something that bands do. OIAM, on the other hand, had caused a reaction. I remember vividly, among other things, a radio show I was listening to that presented new releases. When Lies was released they played Patience (the comments weren't positive - they didn't like the band anyway) and then they talked about OIAM with one of the hosts saying that Axl was a brainless, low-minded .... [Greek derogatory word for people from rural areas] etc. and then there were phone calls from listeners saying similar things. And, from what I've read, there was a lot of controversy in the U.S about that song.
Thinking about it I’d say you are right on OIAM, whilst it wasn’t a big controversy here in Oz to the best of my recollection, it probably was a much bigger deal in the U.S. at the time given the different histories and demographics of the countries. As you rightly point out, at the time in Oz, similar to in Greece, you didn’t really get a good insight into how things looked in the rock world in other countries. We had the local metal mag (Hot Metal in 89 and beyond was the main one), and import mags were quite rare, would turn up months after released overseas and about triple the price. From my memory MTV really only did specials here - although we had l8mited channels at the time where I lived so this may have been different in the capital cities - and there and was maybe on for an hour or two at night. I remember they did show the Ritz show in about 1990. The main video show was Rage and it just showed the Top 50 videos, no news or commentary.
The drugs were def a big issue here though, rightly or wrongly, they were all viewed as a bunch of heroin addicts, Axl and Duff included. From memory there was some issues after their 88 shows where they had to get out of the country quickly due to warrants being issued for promoting drug use from the stage. The story going round at the time was they were supposed to fly back to the US via Oz from NZ but had to change their flights to avoid being arrested at the stop over. Slash was definitely perceived as the worst junkie and also to be permanently drunk. I remember the jokes going around about how Slash never gets hungover as he just stays permanently drunk, and when he dies he’ll be preserved due to all the alcohol in his system !!
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1 hour ago, Fashionista said:
1) I'm speaking of America. You both overestimate the audience they alienated and the new audience they picked up. I am sure some metal head were unhappy with the ballads but the ballads constitute a minority of songs on the records. Some of GnR's most metal in sound material is on UYI I. There aren't really any GNR songs as metal as Garden of Eden. Likewise, I doubt many pop fans crossed over to a homophobic sexist rock band with baggage because of NR.
If the single alone only had success the impact of SCOM as a b side might be more relevant but the success of the video shows that people were into the song itself.
I mentioned that my sister and her friends liked the Illusions but were mainly turned off by Axl's antics the late starts and GnR becoming increasingly out of touch with reality. Those stand independent of Dizzy Reed, ballads or anything else.
The Adler Sorum debate might have been among hardcore fans in the mid 90s, after the tour was over and the dust settled but if you go back to Usenet in 91/92 the only things you'll see about Adler is what a joke it was that a band of drug addicts fired him for doing drugs. Do you really think your average rock fan cared that much about who the drummer was in 91? Izzy leaving was a different story.
its your opinion that the 5 made the best albums and delivered the best performances. As far as what could've been the songs were written with Izzy and Adler in the band and would not have been all that much different with either in tow. Adler did not have a say in musical direction and Izzy was not interested. The Mates Rehearsal in 89 shows as much. Don't damn Me, Locomotive etc are essentially the same as on the record.
There are a couple of good points in here and I do like your Sorum v Frank thread !!!
I’m not denying that during the UYI tour there wasn’t much being said by the fans about Adler/Izzy. The point I keep trying to make/explain is that all the fans I knew of that original band had turned off GNR by that point. They were the ones that cared about Adler/Izzy and they no longer cared for GNR. The new batch of fans they picked up probably barely knew who Adler/Izzy were - by this stage it was the Axl and Slash show, but it never used to be. This is what I keep trying to say, it was a different crowd and a lot more fickle one - when GNR were out of fashion they moved on again - they were in it for the hype and the event, not for the music. I saw this again this time around, people I went to school with who were never fans of GNR for either the Appetite/Lies or the Illusion era were contacting me to go so NITL. I literally don’t know anyone who was a fan back in the day that went to these shows.
I also agree that UYI wouldn’t have been materially different song wise had the band stayed together. I think this was the saving grace for those albums actually that the original band had developed them so far. Where they would have been different IMO was in production, artwork, song credits and song selection. I wouldn’t be surprised if the original idea of a series of EP’s materialised alongside a shorter album. It is hardly surprising that the ‘band’ has barely released anything outside of those songs that the original 5 worked on.
You can look back at sales and tour figures and everything that gets written on the net now and try and form a picture but I can’t emphasis how much at the time this band was viewed as a tight knit group that just did whatever they wanted and didn’t compromise at all. They stood out massively in that regard. As I mentioned all the songs were written by ‘Guns N’ Roses’ in the interviews they’d say stuff like it could only ever have been us 5 in the band, equal billing in the videos, t-shirts and album sleeves, all band members would be interviewed from time to time in the mags, no power ballads on the album. They were different to other bands in this regard and all members had a solid fan base. When it emerged that Adler and Izzy were out and then all the subsequent things that went on with the album/tour that were so diametrically opposite to what they represented during the Appetite/Lies era, just turned so many of the original fans away - and those people did know and care about all 5. Even the band itself acknowledges that the original 5 are the real band, unfortunately money and ego gets in the way now.
Don’t get me wrong, Adler certainly screwed it and people talk about him now as a hopeless addict, but at the time Slash was perceived as a much bigger junkie than Adler. Also, OIAM is a much bigger controversy today than it was back then, small waves at the time but more a storm in a tea cup, outside of the people I knew that liked the band, no one had even heard of the song - the drug use was a much bigger controversy at the time - for crying out loud they put out a shirt with all the band members on the front with the line ‘Stoned in LA’’. I also definitely agree that Axl turned a lot of people away - most thought he was a bit of a dick by the end of that tour - I’m not sure if I mentioned it before but those bike pants definitely alienated a lot of people !!! I remember years later hearing one of those 87 Pasadena shows as they came at as unofficial CD releases in Oz in the late 90s and Axl goes on this rant about musicians who think they are rock stars and how down to earth he is - which is exactly how he and the whole band came across in the 80s, but I was just thinking at the time how things have changed and what the hell happened to this guy ??
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7 hours ago, Fashionista said:
The UYI albums were still massive successes despite the metalhead contingent being unhappy. And you're trying to claim NR was only successful because of SCOM. What a joke. I guess people requested the video for the song on MTV in 1992 ironically, too, right? Massive failure all around, right?
The revisionist hatred for anything past 1990 has now pushed the UYIs into Star Wars prequel territory as being massive failures and bad albums who destroyed GN'R. It's amazing. All because they're bitter Adler wasn't there.
Out of everything I said in the prior post, the thing you choose to comment on is the NR single - and even then try and put words into my mouth. If you can find anywhere that I claim the Illusion about, tour or NR were not big then quote me direct, and I’ll stand corrected. My point the whole time is that they picked up a different fan base, alienated a lot of fans of the original line up and still used the original band to push things along (although far less so than they do today). If you were a pretty casual fan that liked NR but didn’t own Appetite and Lies (remember no internet to stream or download, no greatest hits at the time), so if you wanted the big 3 GNR softer songs you either bought 3 albums that would have been $60 - $90 at the time (in Oz) or you bought that single that was $5 to $7 from memory. A lot bought the single because of this. So I’m not claiming that NR was a success because of this, but I’m certainly claiming it helped sales along.
You seem hell bent on this revisionist line even though you have basically said you weren’t there to experience it first hand, and everyone else that has commented that was, and also your sister more or less are confirming what I’m saying to some degree. Your position is akin to looking back in 20 years and saying NITL was a success so anyone who claims a lot of fans didn’t like it at the time is a revisionist. There are plenty of people expressing their displeasure or dislike and the where’s Adler/Izzy comments are rife, but it doesn’t mean the shows aren’t selling a lot.
The thing with UYI and I expect the same will happen with NITL is that at the time everyone was caught up in the hype and euphoria as it was massive. People went along because it was a huge event. However once all that emotion died down and people looked back, it pretty quickly turned into well actually it wasn’t really that great - if that is what you mean by revisionist then you are correct in that regard, but that didn’t mean a lot of people weren’t also saying it at the time.The band is the same - at the time you can’t find any interviews where they are critical of the Illusions or the tour, but it didn’t take long for them to start saying they hated it and it was one of the worst periods of their life. At the Oz shows the comment immediately after the shows was pretty much universally GNR were ok, but Skid Row blew them away - very quickly after that tour GNR completely faded from prominence.
The Adler/Izzy stuff has been going since 91. It’s not going to go away. As I mentioned before I remember the Adler v Sorum debates back in the mid 90s on the Boerio forums. Now it’s Adler v Frank. I doubt anyone genuinely believed at the time Matt was a preferable drummer for GNR they were just arguing for who was in the band at the time. And it’s the same now for Frank. And it will be the same in 5 & 10 years from now - just as you don’t see Sorum v Frank debates, you won’t see Frank v whoever is drumming then, it will be Adler v whoever. The 5 was the way the band was defined and the group that made the best albums and delivered the best performances. The things that have happened subsequently were predominantly around control, money and ego - and whilst there has been periods of success the reality is the band hasn’t delivered anywhere near the potential it could have and ironically, hasn’t had as much regular or on going success as it could have. Anyone who thinks the current tour is about some sort of artistic statement or integrity is crazy. It is 100% about $$. It is no surprise that the 3 original members involved, no more, no less are the 3 that have voting stake in the sales and marketing of the name or back catalogue. Everything is designed to maximise the $$ for those 3, and I doubt the band are really int9 it. Post tour I expect we’ll start seeing similar statements emerge to post UYI. Funny how they still look back on Appetite era with fondness though. I’ve seen plenty of wealthy people fall into this trap where, even though they have the financial means to do whatever they what, they choose decisions to unnecessarily try and maximise their bank accounts rather than their happiness.
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There are a few different threads at the moment covering the same theme, so I’m bringing a few things together in this post.
What often get forgotten today, is that there is way more info on Guns and even the early days of Guns now than there was in 1990. Back then there was no internet, there was I think 2 books out and other than that all you had was an interview you might have got in that months magazine. Hence things may only come out much later if at all and it was only the big stuff that really came out.
Hence, the main thing the average music buyer saw was the albums, the videos and the t-shirts. So if you want to get a feel for how the band was perceived back then go and look at those and you’ll notice all 5 members pretty much had equal billing. Albums were equal. Videos, Axl had a bit more prominence in Jungle, but all 5 members featured in the off stage scenes, same with Patience and Sweet Child and in Paradise City, Izzy and Axl were missing from the NY shots, so if anything Slash, Adler and Duff had more priminance in that video. T shirts were the same - every shirt was either a logo or if it was a photo it was all 5. Right near the end just before Steven was fired they bought out these Lies shirts that had individual members on the front with a song lyric - but that was 5 different shirt designs one for each member - again all equal. There were virtually no shows in 89/90 and GNR was blowing up ever bigger, particularly in 89 and all the public saw at that time was all 5 members with similar prominence and that is how the band got defined in a lot of people’s minds. Actually the other thing that you could see from time to time was the Ritz show - and again guys like Adler were just as prominent in that as Axl was. Guns was one the last bands where the buying public knew every members name. It was only after UYI came out that it really became the Axl & Slash show but more on the later.
Add to the above they came across as a really tight knit group. Knowing what we know now from the Net we know that wasn’t really the case, but at the time the perception was they were almost a gang who really had each other’s back - it is really hard to find any interviews from that ere where they talk any shit about each other. They were also perceived very much so as a drug orientated band.
So when it started coming out that Steven was fired and fired for drugs it was very much a WTF moment and alienated a lot of fans. (Again remember sometimes it would take months for interviews to be published - so there was a large cross over period where Adler was out but interviews, pics etc coming out were still from when he was in and people didn’t really know what has going on until the YCBM vid came out - not every interview was in every mag, and you couldn’t get every mag anyway so you’re only getting snippets). Those band member shirts were still out right up to the UYI designs came in, so well after Steven was fired you could still get the Guns Steven Adler shirt with Anything Goes/Lies on it.
Subsequenlty you start getting pics coming out with Axl bearded up and in bike shorts and it is increasingly like WTF and then more and more of the stupid antics,changing clothes, disappearing off stage, shows go on for ever and lose their intensity. Izzy disappears adds to it all, there’s a keyboardist in there, then another. The albums are completely different to Appetite, there are the back up singers, the ridiculous videos. They go from basically being lights and bands show - famously in Oz not even a drum riser then they play the Entertianment Centre - to the very thing the claimed to hate a few years before on the Maiden tour this big stage show with inflatables and pyro and these huge banners on the side of the stage. People were legitimately going this is a completely different band in terms of outlook and sound to the one I loved so much a couple of years back.
The other thing that gets forgotten now days is that the UYI singles didn’t go that great at first, it was Nov Rain that really took off and if you look at that single it has Sweet Child and Patience on the b-side. In fact pretty much every UYI single has the original band on it which is pretty ironic as no one in the band was saying anything nice about Adler or even Izzy at this point. It was only late 90s/early 2000’s that started to change.
The other thing is during this period between when Apetite/Lies era ends and UYI come out there are 4 major personnel changes - and in hindsight they are critical. And even though spaced out in most of the public’s eye they pretty much come at the same time.
Adler/Izzy/Niven out, Reed in. The first 3 are critical to the balance within the band as these were the 3 most likely to call Axl out. With them gone, Axl goes more down the Axl path. Similarly with Izzy gone Slash exerts more control, although to be fair this was already happening prior as Izzy was heavil sidelined in the UYI albums. Also, suddenly songs aren’t written by Guns N Roses anymore, they are written by individuals the gang mentality is fracturing,
So much gets talked about Adler and Civil War but most forget that Izzy doesn’t even appear on the track. Both Adler and Izzy had very unique styles that brought a lot to the Guns sound. Steven aside from the unique parts would vary his timing with the emotion of the song which caused it to soar when it needed to and bring it back down when it needed to. Izzy brought a very down to earth element to the band. Slash has said he hates Izzy’s parts in Jungle, but they add so much to the song but if it was on UYI you would hear Izzy’s guitar and the song would be inferior IMO, which is part of what affected the other songs on UYI. Beat in mind as well that Guns started out Axl/Izzy on one side, Slash/Steven on the other and Duff in the middle, so Adler going initially certainly tipped a voting balance in the band.
Niven was also key, up until he was fired the guy was heavily praised for what he achieved with Guns. He was really in it for all 5 and wasn’t afraid to call Axl out. I think Axl did the no show on the first gig Niven was manager and he made the rest of the band go on without Axl. I don’t think he did it again. This was much better way to deal with late starts than accomodating it the way it was during UYI, I’m not sure how often Axl would show up late if by the time he walked on stage the band was already half way through the set. Anyway without Niven handling this, it was the sort of stuff that happened.
Dizzy I don’t think had much influence on the actual band other than they felt the need to cram keyboards into every song now he was a member, it certainly at the time keyboards weren’t viewed as that cool in the metal world, so it was a bit of a WTF and certainly added to this is a whole different band now vibe.
i think the saving grace for the UYI was that they were developed so much by the original band, it was really only right at the end that the personnel changes happened. The notorious Chicago trip where the went to focus on that material was mid 89 for instance, and as we know now many of the tunes pre dated Appetite. One of the best indicators for me is Back of Bitch as it allows you to compare UYI to Appetite via the Sound City demos. The Appetite turns on Sound City are inferior to the album, but Back off Bitch IMO is superior. How an 86 demo sounds better than this hugely expensive album speaks volumes, but also indicates how much better UYI could be.
The other thing that bothers me with those albums, is that they get talked about today like they are these atypical albums, but at the time Appetite and Lies were much more atypical. Every band from Metallica to Poison to pick any were doing power ballads. Motley had the big hit with Home Sweet Home which combined the piano. Appetite had none of that and it made it stand out. With Lies it seemed you had to go back to the early 70’s to get that style. Remember this was years before MTV Unplugg took off with Clapton. UYI however just seemed to go with the formula that everyone else was using - more blah IMO.
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3 hours ago, Fashionista said:
This revisionist pushback against the UYIs is reallllllyyy annoying. No one complained about the UYIs until Slash started bashing them in his interviews and books. They were successes. They represented the height of GN'R's popularity. They do not need to be rerecorded. Leave them alone.
"A genuine GN'R effort." It was. Again, revisionism. It's not a "fakeGN'R" record.
Don't George Lucas GN'R's discography.Nothing revisionist about it at all - those that lived through the Illusion era would recall how polarising they were at the time amongst fans and also that within a year of that tour GNR were pretty much considered a joke.
I can assure you I didn’t think much of them at the time and if anything like them a little better now, but still don’t think they are anything on Appetite or Lies. Didn’t regard them as real GNR at the time, still don’t now and doubt I ever will.
All the 80s GNR fans I knew had moved onto Metallica and then Pantera during that era. A lot gets talked about Nirvana killing this scene, but Pantera did way more damage IMO. GNR on the local metal show just sounded weak alongside Mouth For War. I remember photos of Slash’s Snakepit playing Donnington and it was just sad the way they looked compared to the other bands.
ill tell you who they did pick up as fans though due to the NR videos and the like - the pop fans - and there were a lot of them. My neighbour went from Kylie Minogue to UYI era GNR !!! Completely different fan base to prior.
I also remember the Adler v Matt debates on the Boerio fan site and that was well before Slash left the band. I had to chuckle when the Adler v Frank debates come up now. Time will do to the Frank fans what it did to the Sorum fans. It is Appetite that has and will stand the test of time, the UYI just don’t cut it.
Lastly it’s pretty clear the band knows this as well. This last tour has pretty much been an repeat of th Illusion tours however all the imagery is Appetite. Now I wonder why that is ?
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2 hours ago, DeadSlash said:
Kind of a weird premise. I mean, if you think the Illusion albums were "bad" you're not a hardcore fan. It's so much of their body of work. You could be a hardcore fan and not like TSI, Lies, or CD, but if you don't like ADF or UYI, you just aren't a hardcore fan. It's like saying that you are a hardcore Beatles fan, The Beatles White Album is the greatest album of all time, but they rest of their work sucked. That would make you a fan of the White Album, not the Beatles.
I guess it’s a question of perception as to what GNR is. Some people take the view the name is what makes GNR others take the view its the substance.
In your Beatles example, the same 4 guys played on the all those albums so I agree with you in that it’s undisputably the same band.
With GNR there was 5 guys on LLAS, AFD & Lies. Different people on UYI - is the same band ? some say yes, some say no. Personally I think it was an inferior band, I think the balance in the band shifted and hence 2 members had greater influence before which affected the material to a degree and affected the production and make up a whole lot. Given the original band did so much prep work and writing for it I would love to hear how it would have come out of those things didn’t transpire.
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On 28/08/2018 at 5:47 AM, charliehoodger said:
so now that some time has went by..whats everyones opinion now of the box sets, etc? Regret buying/dont regret buy, waiting?
Didn’t buy it, still won’t buy it.
i think there were 4 new songs or versions of songs I hadn’t heard before, so that was cool and I listened to those.
Listened to some of Sound City stuff and it was the best quality which was great.
But I find it totally bizarre that you would go to so much effort and leave things out (eg I think there were a couple of Sound City tunes missing, they had Mystic but only used it as a cassette in the big box, plus other things mentioned in this thread) and instead choose to put on b-sides that are jus a album versions of the songs that are elsewhere in the box set anyway.
So basically seems like an extensive yet incomplete set which is a shame. Plus a whole heap of nonsense that I have no interest in (eg rings and lithos).
Overall had potential but could have been so much better and the final result ends up just reeking of a half arsed effort/cash grab.
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On 27/08/2018 at 6:47 PM, RONIN said:
I'd pay top dollar for a great UYI "naked" mixes remaster with Adler's drumming semi-restored and Izzy louder in the mix.
I want to hear the Illusions as it was originally conceived before Axl raped it in the studio with his bloatware and added Sorum's shit drumming.
I've thought about this before as well.....pick the dozen songs that the band like the best, strip them back, have Adler re-record the drums and Izzy record rhythm where he was cut out, mix it afresh in a rawer way and have it sound like it should have if all the drama didn't happen (ie a genuine GNR effort).
Axl takes the remainders and modernise and package them however he likes. EP of all the ballads would work for some for example - and a series of EP's was one of the bands original intents.
Package it up with the original re-mastered or whatever so you aren't trying to erase history (as much as I personally don't care for Sorum/Reed, I think it would be silly to try and pretend they didn't exist or contribute - and the piano does work on some songs) and you've got the beginnings of an interesting anniversary box set - and will settle a lot of stuff once and for all.
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Never take seeing GNR or any band for granted. EVH is now gone
in GUNS N' ROSES - DISCUSSION & NEWS
Posted
I always expected to see a VH tour, show or single with the original 4 at some stage, but obviously isn't going to happen now. Just read they were planning on in last year, but unfortunately EVH's health meant it was too late.
I also expected to see the same with GNR at some stage, so if anything the main GNR related thing it made me think is something, anything with the original 5 before it is too late.