"Cherry Pie" or "Talk Dirty to Me"

[LightningBolt]

Hair Metal hasn't had the lasting impact that grunge did on the world's youth in the 90's.

I have to disagree with that, seems like Grunge only lasted a few years and had no way near

the popularity as hair metal.

Maybe VH1 classic will start a "Grunge Mania" soon to help them out a little.

Grunge was a movement that you can still hear in a lot of ways in bands today. Music is so fragmented now that it's difficult to see it, but they had more of an impact on indie bands than hair metal did. People look back on the 80's and cringe, whereas Kurt is considered an icon for providing music that inspired youth that were sick of image over substance.

Now, I just don't agree with this comment. Kurt is infamous and many hate him, probably just as many that hate Hair Metal. He's widely considered talentless, the thing the one guy accused Hair Metal artists of being.

[Lithium]

Now, I just don't agree with this comment. Kurt is infamous and many hate him, probably just as many that hate Hair Metal. He's widely considered talentless, the thing the one guy accused Hair Metal artists of being.

Talking from first-hand experience, I can tell you that those who hate Kurt and find him talentless are mostly bitter hair metal/hard rock/standard rock fans. If you look at any neutral and unbiased places of debate and musical information. For instance, in objective music magazines you will, in most of the issues, find an article, or at least a mention, on Kurt and/or Nirvana, and Nirvana will in most cases be represented in one of those "top 100" lists. Can you say the same about a hair metal band?

Not very much as in they're still super popular, but they're still selling. Their Greatest Hits in '06 got into the Top 20, their cover album got in the top 30, and their live DVD hit #8 on the Music Video charts. That's good for a Hair Metal band today.

I'm sure fucking Ukrainian folk music sells a lot of albums in certain groups of people, but that hardly makes it relevant in today's popular music, now does it? Those sales statistics are largely due to 40-something year olds getting struck by nostalgia and purchasing albums and DVDs of the bands they listened to when they were teenagers. I'm sure a lot of today's teenagers are going to buy MGMT or Kanye West's DVD if they ever release one in 2029, but do you think those artists will be relevant in modern popular music 20 years from now? I highly doubt it.

[LightningBolt]

Talking from first-hand experience, I can tell you that those who hate Kurt and find him talentless are mostly bitter hair metal/hard rock/standard rock fans.

Talking from first-hand experience, you're wrong. I go to other forums, and there's a guy into everything, pretty much except Hair Metal, Emo, Metalcore, and other stuff, but he hates Cobain and Nirvana with a passion. There's another dude that loves Coheed and other bands like them, as well as a lot of Prog and more obscure Metal acts, and he hates 'em. Another guy that loves anything obscure, from Indie to these wierd bands you've never heard of, he hates 'em. Now, I'm not really going to expect you to believe that, but it's true. You can believe it if you want, I really can't provide proof. Here's the link to the forum, if it matters:

http://boards.ign.com/board.asp?brd=11059

Go ahead, hold a poll asking who thinks Cobain was talented, I'm sure you won't be enthusiastic of the results. Now, I know this one forum isn't a general consensus of what the general public thinks, but for you to claim that "only" disgruntled Hair Metal/Hard Rock/Heavy Metal fans feel that way is lunaty.

And I'm not bitter, I have tons of music from the genre I don't know of, I wasn't around during the time, so I didn't get to really see Nirvana's effect on the scene, but I have tons of music from the genre I enjoy and I find more everyday. And I like Grunge, I just happen to hate ol' Cobain, the guy given credit for beginning Grunge, you know, when there were bands like Skin Yard and Meat Puppets before him. But whatever.

If you look at any neutral and unbiased places of debate and musical information. For instance, in objective music magazines you will, in most of the issues, find an article, or at least a mention, on Kurt and/or Nirvana, and Nirvana will in most cases be represented in one of those "top 100" lists.

Now, that's a brash assumption to make. I can say the same for any band, really.

http://stereogum.com/archives/vh1s-100-gre...ngs_043591.html

Vh1's 100 Greatest Hard Rock songs. Now, this one may be a little unfair, as Hard Rock and Hair Metal often go hand in hand, but you'll find that this list has people like Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Soundgarden, Iggy Pop, Black Sabbath, Rush, Metallica, Megadeth, Guns N' Roses, Lynyrd Skynyrd and others on it. Still, pretty biased. And the fact you'd resort to these little lists that are 1) biased, and you point out "objective magazines", guess what, they don't exsist, and 2) usually looked down upon by basically everyone; is pretty funny all in itself.

Can you say the same about a hair metal band?

Everyone's tastes are different, and these lists suit the tastes of the creators. And, besides that, these lists are usually known as horrible ones, so I couldn't care less.

I'm sure fucking Ukrainian folk music sells a lot of albums in certain groups of people, but that hardly makes it relevant in today's popular music, now does it? Those sales statistics are largely due to 40-something year olds getting struck by nostalgia and purchasing albums and DVDs of the bands they listened to when they were teenagers. I'm sure a lot of today's teenagers are going to buy MGMT or Kanye West's DVD if they ever release one in 2029, but do you think those artists will be relevant in modern popular music 20 years from now? I highly doubt it.

Okay, they're still selling. You're acting like every generation after Grunge is going to be infatuated with the genre. No, they won't. Our generation (you're 16, I'm 15, close enough) isn't infatuated with either Grunge or Hair Metal, and if you can't admit that, you're in denial. Everyone's into anything popular at the moment, and that includes bands like Avenged Sevenfold, Paramore, Muse, Slipknot, Disturbed, Linkin Park, KoRn, Nickelback, Staind and the likes for "Rock" fans of today, and any rap/hip-hop group for the majority of the rest of them. Sure, a few of us know who Nirvana is, but it's not the whopping amount you must feel it is.

I mean, you must have some view of me as solely liking 80's music or something, but it's not true. I love Grunge, I like Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice In Chains, Skin Yard, Green River, Mad Season, Temple Of The Dog, Screaming Trees, Meat Puppets, and the such. You must feel Cobain is the messiah of Rock music, and I'm just pointing out that it's far from the truth. I mean, it is a popular belief that Cobain was talentless, whether you want to admit it or not.

Edited May 17, 2009 by LightningBolt

[Estranged Reality]

Kurt is infamous and many hate him, probably just as many that hate Hair Metal. He's widely considered talentless

How is it under that rock?

[LightningBolt]

Kurt is infamous and many hate him, probably just as many that hate Hair Metal. He's widely considered talentless

How is it under that rock?

Don't understand what you're trying to say, honestly. You mean, how could the wide amount of people that hate Hair Metal be close to the amount that hate Cobain? Are you guys blind? Cobain's hated by craploads of people. And no, it isn't "mostly" Hard Rock/Heavy Metal/"Standard" Rock fans, either.

[Estranged Reality]

Don't understand what you're trying to say, honestly.

[LightningBolt]

Don't understand what you're trying to say, honestly.

You tell me. If you've never come across at least two dozen people that hate the guy's guts, then you're the one living under the rock.

[Guest Apollo]

Cherry Pie.

Warrant's Dog Eat Dog is the most underrated rock album from the so-called "hair bands."

Hole in my Wall, Machine Gun are pure hard rock songs. Warrant gets a bad rap.

[Lithium]

Talking from first-hand experience, I can tell you that those who hate Kurt and find him talentless are mostly bitter hair metal/hard rock/standard rock fans.

Talking from first-hand experience, you're wrong. I go to other forums, and there's a guy into everything, pretty much except Hair Metal, Emo, Metalcore, and other stuff, but he hates Cobain and Nirvana with a passion. There's another dude that loves Coheed and other bands like them, as well as a lot of Prog and more obscure Metal acts, and he hates 'em. Another guy that loves anything obscure, from Indie to these wierd bands you've never heard of, he hates 'em. Now, I'm not really going to expect you to believe that, but it's true. You can believe it if you want, I really can't provide proof. Here's the link to the forum, if it matters:

http://boards.ign.com/board.asp?brd=11059

Go ahead, hold a poll asking who thinks Cobain was talented, I'm sure you won't be enthusiastic of the results. Now, I know this one forum isn't a general consensus of what the general public thinks, but for you to claim that "only" disgruntled Hair Metal/Hard Rock/Heavy Metal fans feel that way is lunaty.

And I'm not bitter, I have tons of music from the genre I don't know of, I wasn't around during the time, so I didn't get to really see Nirvana's effect on the scene, but I have tons of music from the genre I enjoy and I find more everyday. And I like Grunge, I just happen to hate ol' Cobain, the guy given credit for beginning Grunge, you know, when there were bands like Skin Yard and Meat Puppets before him. But whatever.

If you look at any neutral and unbiased places of debate and musical information. For instance, in objective music magazines you will, in most of the issues, find an article, or at least a mention, on Kurt and/or Nirvana, and Nirvana will in most cases be represented in one of those "top 100" lists.

Now, that's a brash assumption to make. I can say the same for any band, really.

http://stereogum.com/archives/vh1s-100-gre...ngs_043591.html

Vh1's 100 Greatest Hard Rock songs. Now, this one may be a little unfair, as Hard Rock and Hair Metal often go hand in hand, but you'll find that this list has people like Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Soundgarden, Iggy Pop, Black Sabbath, Rush, Metallica, Megadeth, Guns N' Roses, Lynyrd Skynyrd and others on it. Still, pretty biased. And the fact you'd resort to these little lists that are 1) biased, and you point out "objective magazines", guess what, they don't exsist, and 2) usually looked down upon by basically everyone; is pretty funny all in itself.

Can you say the same about a hair metal band?

Everyone's tastes are different, and these lists suit the tastes of the creators. And, besides that, these lists are usually known as horrible ones, so I couldn't care less.

I'm sure fucking Ukrainian folk music sells a lot of albums in certain groups of people, but that hardly makes it relevant in today's popular music, now does it? Those sales statistics are largely due to 40-something year olds getting struck by nostalgia and purchasing albums and DVDs of the bands they listened to when they were teenagers. I'm sure a lot of today's teenagers are going to buy MGMT or Kanye West's DVD if they ever release one in 2029, but do you think those artists will be relevant in modern popular music 20 years from now? I highly doubt it.

Okay, they're still selling. You're acting like every generation after Grunge is going to be infatuated with the genre. No, they won't. Our generation (you're 16, I'm 15, close enough) isn't infatuated with either Grunge or Hair Metal, and if you can't admit that, you're in denial. Everyone's into anything popular at the moment, and that includes bands like Avenged Sevenfold, Paramore, Muse, Slipknot, Disturbed, Linkin Park, KoRn, Nickelback, Staind and the likes for "Rock" fans of today, and any rap/hip-hop group for the majority of the rest of them. Sure, a few of us know who Nirvana is, but it's not the whopping amount you must feel it is.

I mean, you must have some view of me as solely liking 80's music or something, but it's not true. I love Grunge, I like Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice In Chains, Skin Yard, Green River, Mad Season, Temple Of The Dog, Screaming Trees, Meat Puppets, and the such. You must feel Cobain is the messiah of Rock music, and I'm just pointing out that it's far from the truth. I mean, it is a popular belief that Cobain was talentless, whether you want to admit it or not.

Please direct me to the part of my post where I used the word "only" in reference to which people hate Kurt Cobain. I suggest you read through my post properly before putting words in my mouth. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mostly. I never said you were bitter either - I said that the group best represented in the question of who dislikes Kurt Cobain, ergo hard rock fans, etc, were bitter; I haven't read enough of your posts to determine whether you are a part of that group or not. I never accused you of being a part of any group, so I don't see why you start to rave on about the Meat Puppets and all the other music you listen to. As far as I can see, very few people give credit to Nirvana and Kurt Cobain for starting grunge. And those who do are wrong, and I disagree with them 100%. What Nirvana do get a lot of credit for is popularizing grunge and alternative music in general - and that I agree 100% with.

I don't see what point you're trying to get to with that link to the VH1 list. Are you trying to say that hair metal are also represented in those "top 100" lists? If so, using a media source like VH1 to prove your points is not exactly the smartest thing to do. We're talking about the channel which cash in on Bret Michael's stupid reality show, and which is known for focusing a lot on the '80s and hard rock. Biased, much? You're right there are no completely objective media sources, but you will find some that focus on a lot of different types of music. Take Rolling Stone Magazine, for example. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was/is the largest music magazine in the world. Their main focus was rock music, but they also wrote stuff about jazz, blues, indie etc. You will see that Nirvana and Kurt Cobain are on their "top albums" list, "top songs" and "top guitarist" list. And how many hair metal bands are to be seen on those lists? None, as far as I can see. Take any large and unbiased music magazine like that, and you will see that few, or even none, "hate" Nirvana, and that few of them will call him "talentless".

You're saying that those lists suit the tastes of the creators, and you are absolutely correct, and you're helping me prove my point by saying so. Those lists are often created by the readers of the magazines, which are people who all have different musical taste. Whether those lists are considered "horrible", "great" or "mediocre" is irrelevant; those lists represent the opinions of people who listen to rock music, and they show us that very few of them "hate" Nirvana and find Kurt talentless, as you claim that a lot of people do.

When did I ever act as if every generation after grunge is going to be infatuated with the genre? Hell, I didn't even mention anything remotely close to that in my previous post. Grunge itself is nowhere to be seen on today's charts, but grunge bands like Nirvana did influence a lot of modern rock artists, including some of the ones you mentioned. I can't really see a lot of puffy hair, cheesy love ballads and songs about fucking girls and leather pants in today's modern music scene, can you? I'm just wondering - what gave you the impression that I give a fuck about what you listen to, and that I have been labelling you as someone who solely listen to '80s music? You can stop listing all the bands you listen to - the fact that you listen to alternative rock as well doesn't make your statements any less wrong.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Lithium

[Guest Apollo]

This thread is hilarious.

"Anthem choruses coupled with catchy hooks and sing along tunes" . . . . like that's a bad thing. That's the formula for pretty much all pop music and most rock tunes.

Then some guy (i'm guessing somebody under the age of 21) rips apart people over 40, basically saying that because they listened to hair bands back in the day that they don't know anything about music. And that the only people that diss Kurt Cobain are those still stuck in the 80's and are just angry and bitter people. (I'm paraphrasing, I don't feel like going back and rereading it). I always find it funny when somebody shows anger in their posts and uses insults . . . while claiming that other people do that. Sort of like the old standard "Violence is bad. And if I ever see you hit somebody again, I will kick the shit out of you."

I like a lot of hair metal songs and bands. I didn't like grunge that much, but there were some bands and songs I liked. I prefer Warrant, Motley Crue and Cinderella to Nirvana. But "bitter"?????? Why would I be bitter about a style of music? I don't understand that at all. I give them full credit for the imprint they left on the music scene. But in the end, both genres are music. To be listened to and enjoyed. I dig some pearl jam and soundgarden. Temple of the Dog. Metal church. Mother Love Bone isn't grunge, but from taht same era and those guys - imo - would have been one of the biggest bands in the world.

And if Poison can still put out albums and make a living playing music - good for them.

Thank God that the majority of us are not music snobs and don't need to get some sort of self worth by trashing certain genres of music. People, saying you hate hair bands does not elevate you in terms of how other mygnr forum members view you. Nor does it make your music opinion anymore valid or worthwhile than anybody elses.

I love all music and could give a fuck about labels. I enjoy music for what it is. And am not embarrased to say if I like a rap song, an 80's hair metal song, a 90's pop music song or a 60's classic. I've got Master of Puppets on my Ipod sitting besides Mmm-Bop. I listen to Megadeth and Buddy Holly. Willie Nelson to one Limp Bizket song I like (Rollin). Jimi Hendrick to the beatles to warrant.

I've never understood people who get so angry about what other people listen to. That feel the need to insult you if you like a type of music that they don't like. And I feel sad for people who can't enjoy all types of music. That's your loss though, not mine.

Enjoy music. Appreciate it.

I don't care what you like - but show some respect and class by not ripping people just because they like a genre of music that you don't like. I don't listen to much rap, but if rap music does something for you, if it helps you through rough times or makes you happy and want to dance . .. then good for you and I'm glad that there is music out there that touches you in some way!!!!! Too bad all the posters on this forum don't feel the same way.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Apollo

[Lithium]

I hope you're not referring to me, Apollo, because I haven't said any of that.

[Estranged Reality]

You tell me. If you've never come across at least two dozen people that hate the guy's guts, then you're the one living under the rock.

You know "at least two dozen people" who hate the guts of a dead musician? Get new friends.

I don't particularly care for Kurt Cobain (just as I don't care for Bret Michaels), but I can't imagine hating someone for such inane reasons. If you don't like his music, then listen to other music. The fact that you know two dozen people who dislike Nirvana yet still feel strongly enough about their dead singer to "hate his guts" pretty much proves highvoltage's point about Nirvana's impact. If Bret Michaels had died in 1989, do you think people would still be arguing over him today?

[LightningBolt]

When did I ever act as if every generation after grunge is going to be infatuated with the genre? Hell, I didn't even mention anything remotely close to that in my previous post. Grunge itself is nowhere to be seen on today's charts, but grunge bands like Nirvana did influence a lot of modern rock artists, including some of the ones you mentioned. I can't really see a lot of puffy hair, cheesy love ballads and songs about fucking girls and leather pants in today's modern music scene, can you? I'm just wondering - what gave you the impression that I give a fuck about what you listen to, and that I have been labelling you as someone who solely listen to '80s music? You can stop listing all the bands you listen to - the fact that you listen to alternative rock as well doesn't make your statements any less wrong.

I'd argue that the subject matter of 80's Hair Metal and the Power Ballad have transitioned over to Nu Metal and Hard Rock bands of today like Burn Halo, Staind, Buckcherry, Trapt, and the rest of these bands.

And EstrangedReality, you took the "hate his guts" thing too literally.

[Lithium]

I'd argue that the subject matter of 80's Hair Metal and the Power Ballad have transitioned over to Nu Metal and Hard Rock bands of today like Burn Halo, Staind, Buckcherry, Trapt, and the rest of these bands.

With the exception of Buckcherry, those artists are hardly even relevant themselves. Grunge is more influential on today's music than hair metal, I don't see how you can deny that.

[LightningBolt]

I'd argue that the subject matter of 80's Hair Metal and the Power Ballad have transitioned over to Nu Metal and Hard Rock bands of today like Burn Halo, Staind, Buckcherry, Trapt, and the rest of these bands.

With the exception of Buckcherry, those artists are hardly even relevant themselves. Grunge is more influential on today's music than hair metal, I don't see how you can deny that.

Wasn't denying it. And I don't see how relevant those bands are matter all that much. There's hundreds of irrelevant bands to one that is considered so. But, in my opinion, Grunge kind of had a negative influence. I mean, I just seem to see so many carbon copies floating around. I mean, Post Grunge, none of the bands sound very different from one another. I mean, you could say the same for a few genres, but at least with Hair Metal, Grunge, Heavy Metal, Prog Rock, and the such I can tell the difference between who's performing which song.

EDIT: Just noticed I posted 'I mean' three times in that post

Edited May 17, 2009 by LightningBolt

[Lithium]

Ok, great, so we agree then?

[LightningBolt]

Ok, great, so we agree then?

That Grunge has a greater influence over modern music? Yes. I was defending, first, that they did have talent, and just now, that they do have influence over a few acts now.

[slasher2099]

I can't really see a lot of puffy hair, cheesy love ballads and songs about fucking girls and leather pants in today's modern music scene, can you?

Nickelback - dark horse - one of the top selling rock albums of 2008. Featuring songs such as "something in your mouth", "shakin' hands", "S.E.X." to fulfill all your needs of songs about fucking girls.

So, yeah, bands might not have puffy hair anymore but its not like they stopping singing about gettin' high and havin' sex.

[Guest Apollo]

Grunge had more of a long term influence on music than Hair Metal did.

But, hair metal might have been popular for longer and was certainly "bigger" during its time than Grunge was.

But who cares!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Music is music.

Some people are moved/touched by grunge, by rap, by hair metal, by pop, by country. I am just thankful that there are so many options out there for all of us to choose from.

My only real issue is when people say that the hair-metal bands had no talent. It's bullshit. There were great guitarists, great drummers, great bass players, great singers, great song writers and great performers. And yes, there were also shitty ones and there were bands thrown together just to try and cash in on the craze. BUT the same exact thing happens EVERY TIME a specific style of music becomes popular. Whatever type of music is most popular tomorrow - within six months you will see 100 other bands copying that sound.

Warrant is a perfect example. Because of cherry pie and heaven - they get lumped in as being talented posuers or whatever you want to call them. But Uncle Tom's Cabin and Mr. Rainmaker and Down Boys and I Saw Red are great pop rock songs. And their album Dog Eat Dog has about 10 great songs on it.

Sometimes music needs to be fun.

Anybody want to take a guess at which band wrote these lyrics?

Hey I know what to do

Im gonna fuck fuck fuck fuck you

Fuck you

Ya I know what to do

Im gonna fuck fuck fuck fuck you

Fuck you Im gonna

[LightningBolt]

My only real issue is when people say that the hair-metal bands had no talent. It's bullshit. There were great guitarists, great drummers, great bass players, great singers, great song writers and great performers. And yes, there were also shitty ones and there were bands thrown together just to try and cash in on the craze. BUT the same exact thing happens EVERY TIME a specific style of music becomes popular. Whatever type of music is most popular tomorrow - within six months you will see 100 other bands copying that sound.

Warrant is a perfect example. Because of cherry pie and heaven - they get lumped in as being talented posuers or whatever you want to call them. But Uncle Tom's Cabin and Mr. Rainmaker and Down Boys and I Saw Red are great pop rock songs. And their album Dog Eat Dog has about 10 great songs on it.

That was pretty much what I said at the beginning of the thread, so needless to say, I agree.

Anybody want to take a guess at which band wrote these lyrics?

Hey I know what to do

Im gonna fuck fuck fuck fuck you

Fuck you

Ya I know what to do

Im gonna fuck fuck fuck fuck you

Fuck you Im gonna

It looks like "Big Dumb Sex", and I think it's Soundgarden that did the original version, right? But, in all fairness, it was done as a parody of Hair Metal.

[Zint]

If Bret Michaels had died in 1989, do you think people would still be arguing over him today?

The fact that the guy's being debated at all is fairly amusing.

[Getizzyback]

Hair Metal hasn't had the lasting impact that grunge did on the world's youth in the 90's.

I have to disagree with that, seems like Grunge only lasted a few years and had no way near

the popularity as hair metal.

Maybe VH1 classic will start a "Grunge Mania" soon to help them out a little.

Grunge was a movement that you can still hear in a lot of ways in bands today. Music is so fragmented now that it's difficult to see it, but they had more of an impact on indie bands than hair metal did. People look back on the 80's and cringe, whereas Kurt is considered an icon for providing music that inspired youth that were sick of image over substance.

OK, I guess we live in two totally different worlds. Most 20 year olds around me don't even

know who Nirvana is, seems like all they listen to is hip hop. Thanks to classic rock radio and

VH1 Classic, the average 20 year old around here knows who Bret Michaels is, but doesn't

even know what grunge sounds like.

oh, and you gotta take Cherry Pie over Talk Dirty To Me!

Edited May 22, 2009 by Getizzyback

[Guest Apollo]

Unskinny Bop is better than Talk Dirty To Me anyway!!!