Do you think that the leaks influenced on Chinese Democracy's tracklist?

[gnr-dave]

catcher was included because of the good reception it had after it leaked. imo...

Too bad the song was butchered on the album version.

There were two songs that were not supposed to make CD but did because they leaked, so two unheard songs were instead dropped.

Axl said he wasn't sure if catcher was going to be on CD when he was on Eddie Trunk, this was AFTER it had leaked - So no go Dave. Just more wild speculation from yourself, presented as fact.

Yet CITR WAS on CD and it was leaked. So that pretty much backs up what I said, does it not?

You can claim what ever you want but my so called facts as you call them when it comes to the album have always been right.

You can claim what ever you want my track record of being correct speaks for itself.

There is a reason why all of the songs on CD were leaks, its because the label was forcing the album out, Axl never wanted it released, and it was a rush job.

That is why the booklet was all fucked up, and that is why Axl did not promote it.

Axl just put all the leaks on the album just to get it out.

Dave you really think Axl never wanted the album out?? He would have been absolutely sued to oblivion if this was the case. Why would he bother making an album in the first place if he never wanted to release it? And with talk of a follow up, i don't buy that Axl never wanted to put out Chidem, but im curious as to why you think that.

He did not want to put it out when it was released in Nov of 2008. I never said he never wanted it out.

Why do you think he never promoted it, and waited a year to tour off the album? You really think if the album was not just thrown together and put out, that would have happened if Axl really wanted the album out in 2008?

CITR was supposed to be on the THIRD album remember? Or are you too much of a newbie to know, yet it was on CD.

I have heard that countless times but have no idea where it came from, care to point me in the right direction?

I forget where it came from it was long ago when it was said, but even you admit know remembering that being said.

[plonker88]

CITR was supposed to be on the THIRD album remember? Or are you too much of a newbie to know, yet it was on CD.

I have heard that countless times but have no idea where it came from, care to point me in the right direction?

I forget where it came from it was long ago when it was said, but even you admit know remembering that being said.

Doesn't mean there is any truth to it really, could just be fan speculation taking on a different form.

Edited April 25, 2010 by plonker88

[gnr-dave]

CITR was supposed to be on the THIRD album remember? Or are you too much of a newbie to know, yet it was on CD.

I have heard that countless times but have no idea where it came from, care to point me in the right direction?

I forget where it came from it was long ago when it was said, but even you admit know remembering that being said.

Doesn't mean there is any truth to it really, could just be fan speculation taking on a different form.

Yeah ok that was around for 6 years until CD came out, and now you are going to claim it was fan speculation?

Just like you liked argued last week with that quote I could not find about how many songs they have, that some other poster found, and showed I was correct.

You really don't believe the leaks influenced what songs were on CD?

You dont find it funny all the songs that fully leaked in studio form were on the album yet there are at least 30 others songs out there (that hoarders have) that were not leaked?

Edited April 25, 2010 by gnr-dave

[Young_Gun]

CITR was supposed to be on the THIRD album remember? Or are you too much of a newbie to know, yet it was on CD.

I have heard that countless times but have no idea where it came from, care to point me in the right direction?

I forget where it came from it was long ago when it was said, but even you admit know remembering that being said.

Doesn't mean there is any truth to it really, could just be fan speculation taking on a different form.

I remember hearing about Catcher being on the 3rd record too, did Axl say that to Madison when she met him? I know i read it somewhere.

[plonker88]

CITR was supposed to be on the THIRD album remember? Or are you too much of a newbie to know, yet it was on CD.

I have heard that countless times but have no idea where it came from, care to point me in the right direction?

I forget where it came from it was long ago when it was said, but even you admit know remembering that being said.

Doesn't mean there is any truth to it really, could just be fan speculation taking on a different form.

Yeah ok that was around for 6 years until CD came out, and now you are going to claim it was fan speculation?

Just like you liked argued last week with that quote I could not find about how many songs they have, that some other poster found, and showed I was correct.

You really don't believe the leaks influenced what songs were on CD?

You dont find it funny all the songs that fully leaked in studio form were on the album yet there are at least 30 others songs out there (that hoarders have) that were not leaked?

I said it COULD be fan speculation, it's perfectly possible. Look at all the speculation surrounding an album coming out this year, if it doesn't come out no doubt people will, in a year or so time, claim the "original plan" was to release it in 2010 because there was so much talk about it. People misinterpret things, it's the way of the internet.

I never said you were wrong, I just wanted to see some proof for what you were claiming, I just don't think it is right to claim something is fact unless you have something concrete to back it up.

I might have, but the way I see it the reason those certain songs leaked is because those were the ones Axl knew would be on the album and was therefore handing those songs out to big wigs and various others. But, there are two perfectly possible scenarios as to why the tracklist was the way it was, none of us know what the real reason was because none of us are in any way, shape or form involved with this band beyond being fans.

Edited April 25, 2010 by plonker88

[gnr-dave]

CITR was supposed to be on the THIRD album remember? Or are you too much of a newbie to know, yet it was on CD.

I have heard that countless times but have no idea where it came from, care to point me in the right direction?

I forget where it came from it was long ago when it was said, but even you admit know remembering that being said.

Doesn't mean there is any truth to it really, could just be fan speculation taking on a different form.

Yeah ok that was around for 6 years until CD came out, and now you are going to claim it was fan speculation?

Just like you liked argued last week with that quote I could not find about how many songs they have, that some other poster found, and showed I was correct.

You really don't believe the leaks influenced what songs were on CD?

You dont find it funny all the songs that fully leaked in studio form were on the album yet there are at least 30 others songs out there (that hoarders have) that were not leaked?

I said it COULD be fan speculation, it's perfectly possible. Look at all the speculation surrounding an album coming out this year, if it doesn't come out no doubt people will, in a year or so time, claim the "original plan" was to release it in 2010 because there was so much talk about it. People misinterpret things, it's the way of the internet.

I never said you were wrong, I just wanted to see some proof for what you were claiming, I just don't think it is right to claim something is fact unless you have something concrete to back it up.

I might have, but the way I see it the reason those certain songs leaked is because those were the ones Axl knew would be on the album and was therefore handing those songs out to big wigs and various others. But, there are two perfectly possible scenarios as to why the tracklist was the way it was, none of us know what the real reason was because none of us are in any way, shape or form involved with this band beyond being fans.

Why would I need a quote about CITR being on the 3rd album when everyone who has posted here from at least 2002 know that was said?

You know it was said, so why even debate it? Its just you being difficult, you know its near impossible to find a quote from 2002.

Its just like Axls plan for releasing 3 albums, any long time fan knows Axl said that at one of the 2002 shows, but it would be very hard to find that youtube clip of him saying that, so if you know it was said, why even ask for proof?

[plonker88]

Why would I need a quote about CITR being on the 3rd album when everyone who has posted here from at least 2002 know that was said?

Just because people on a forum claim that was the case does not mean it actually was. What I am disputing is whether that bit of information came from somewhere of merit or was something said by someone who in the long run knows bugger all about the band and the guys in it. I would want you to find me something that shows it came from somewhere of merit, I really would, so we can stop having this pointless conversation.

You know it was said, so why even debate it? Its just you being difficult, you know its near impossible to find a quote from 2002.

Pot....kettle.

Its just like Axls plan for releasing 3 albums, any long time fan knows Axl said that at one of the 2002 shows, but it would be very hard to find that youtube clip of him saying that, so if you know it was said, why even ask for proof?

Now that I will believe because we have that radio interview where Axl says he has close to 3 albums worth of material which implies he wants to release all 3.

All I am trying to say is I think it is better for this forum and the band if people understand that sometimes something considered as fact may not actually have a leg to stand on. It leads to a lot less confusion and headaches. It is worthwhile not assuming that just because it's considered fact on the forum does not make it so.

Anywho, I'm not bored enough to carry on with this, feel free to reply, or not.

Edited April 25, 2010 by plonker88

[gnr-dave]

Then if you heard the info too, with your first reply, you should say you remember hearing that also, but forgot where it came from.

You dont pretend you never heard the info before then say you did.

[tat2d1]

It wouldn't surprise me if the leaks helped to decide the tracklisting for CD.

[Rick]

I think Axl should've saved some songs that were played live from 2001-2007 on future albums.

I'm not sure that would have been wise?

R.

[John Bonham]

I think the 13 tracks possibly comes from Axl not wanting This I Love included initially.

The tracklist just prior to the release.

1. Chinese Democracy

2. Riad

3. Shackler's Revenge

4. Stardust

5. If The World

6. Better

7. This I Love

8. There Was A Time

9. The Lies They Tell

10. Sorry

11. I.R.S.

12. Madagascar

13. Prostitute

[Young_Gun]

I think the 13 tracks possibly comes from Axl not wanting This I Love included initially.

The tracklist just prior to the release.

1. Chinese Democracy

2. Riad

3. Shackler's Revenge

4. Stardust

5. If The World

6. Better

7. This I Love

8. There Was A Time

9. The Lies They Tell

10. Sorry

11. I.R.S.

12. Madagascar

13. Prostitute

No Catcher? Strange.

[Kush]

I think the 13 tracks possibly comes from Axl not wanting This I Love included initially.

The tracklist just prior to the release.

1. Chinese Democracy

2. Riad

3. Shackler's Revenge

4. Stardust

5. If The World

6. Better

7. This I Love

8. There Was A Time

9. The Lies They Tell

10. Sorry

11. I.R.S.

12. Madagascar

13. Prostitute

... Depends on your definition of "just prior".

[John Bonham]

... Depends on your definition of "just prior".

Are you talking about this tracklist? I guess you're right. This one was "just prior."

1. Chinese Democracy

2. Scraped (Lies They Tell)

3. Shackler's Revenge

4. Street of Dreams

5. If the World

6. Better

7. This I Love

8. There Was a Time

9. Riad N' the Bedovins

10.Sorry

11.I.R.S.

12.Catcher

13.Madagascar

14.Prostitute

[plonker88]

Where did you get those tracklists from? I remember Best Buy putting our some different variations of it on their website.

[John Bonham]

This one was on the Best Buy website (October 2008)

1. Chinese Democracy

2. Scraped (Lies They Tell)

3. Shackler's Revenge

4. Street of Dreams

5. If the World

6. Better

7. This I Love

8. There Was a Time

9. Riad N' the Bedovins

10.Sorry

11.I.R.S.

12.Catcher

13.Madagascar

14.Prostitute

This one came from Universal and was posted on the boards around the same time

1. Chinese Democracy

2. Riad

3. Shackler's Revenge

4. Stardust

5. If The World

6. Better

7. This I Love

8. There Was A Time

9. The Lies They Tell

10. Sorry

11. I.R.S.

12. Madagascar

13. Prostitute

[axl8302]

catcher was included because of the good reception it had after it leaked. imo...

Too bad the song was butchered on the album version.

There were two songs that were not supposed to make CD but did because they leaked, so two unheard songs were instead dropped.

Axl said he wasn't sure if catcher was going to be on CD when he was on Eddie Trunk, this was AFTER it had leaked - So no go Dave. Just more wild speculation from yourself, presented as fact.

Yet CITR WAS on CD and it was leaked. So that pretty much backs up what I said, does it not?

You can claim what ever you want but my so called facts as you call them when it comes to the album have always been right.

You can claim what ever you want my track record of being correct speaks for itself.

There is a reason why all of the songs on CD were leaks, its because the label was forcing the album out, Axl never wanted it released, and it was a rush job.

That is why the booklet was all fucked up, and that is why Axl did not promote it.

Axl just put all the leaks on the album just to get it out.

CITR was supposed to be on the THIRD album remember? Or are you too much of a newbie to know, yet it was on CD.

It really amazes me at the people that bash me, dont even know their new gnr history.

I've been around from the very beginning Dave. I don't need schooling on GN'R history from you.

I don't know about your track record of been always right, but I'm aware that you have a 100% track record of being an absolute cunt!

Checkmate wasn't on the album and that leaked, what happened there then, hot shot?

Edited April 26, 2010 by axl8302

[rockerman]

"were playing songs we are thinking about NOT being on the record"

or something to that effect was what Axl said in 2002 at Leeds?

Personally I think the company told Axl to shove it up his butt if he was going to delay the album any longer and since these songs were by that time out there and some of them 8-10 years old that this was a natural to release the studio versions..

. i was pissed at the final product of CITR and TWAT..my opinion was when I listened to CD...this is it?????

Good Album but makes me wonder if the release was a contractual obligation to recoup the money spent to record it.

The big guns are are yet to come.

[gnr-dave]

"were playing songs we are thinking about NOT being on the record"

or something to that effect was what Axl said in 2002 at Leeds?

Personally I think the company told Axl to shove it up his butt if he was going to delay the album any longer and since these songs were by that time out there and some of them 8-10 years old that this was a natural to release the studio versions..

. i was pissed at the final product of CITR and TWAT..my opinion was when I listened to CD...this is it?????

Good Album but makes me wonder if the release was a contractual obligation to recoup the money spent to record it.

The big guns are are yet to come.

Like I have said before, the more Axl worked on the songs after 2002 the worse the songs got.

The leaks were much better than the album versions.

There was most likely a contractual thing, wasnt there a rumor about another GH or best of, if axl missed the dead line.

Best guess is Axl just handed over all the leaks since we have heard all of the songs on CD but two, and he is saving the rest for the follow ups.

Since they will all be songs we have not heard. CD recouped everything CD cost.

The two follow ups will be gravey

Edited April 27, 2010 by gnr-dave

[wasted]

"were playing songs we are thinking about NOT being on the record"

or something to that effect was what Axl said in 2002 at Leeds?

Personally I think the company told Axl to shove it up his butt if he was going to delay the album any longer and since these songs were by that time out there and some of them 8-10 years old that this was a natural to release the studio versions..

. i was pissed at the final product of CITR and TWAT..my opinion was when I listened to CD...this is it?????

Good Album but makes me wonder if the release was a contractual obligation to recoup the money spent to record it.

The big guns are are yet to come.

Like I have said before, the more Axl worked on the songs after 2002 the worse the songs got.

The leaks were much better than the album versions.

There was most likely a contractual thing, wasnt there a rumor about another GH or best of, if axl missed the dead line.

Best guess is Axl just handed over all the leaks since we have heard all of the songs on CD but two, and he is saving the rest for the follow ups.

Since they will all be songs we have not heard. CD recouped everything CD cost.

The two follow ups will be gravey

Don't agree with leaks being better, they may not be significantly better but certain songs Bumble added stuff that took them to nother level, others like Cacther are just much more polished. CD production is just the production of the times, same as AFD and UYI were products of the times.

Do agree that maybe they are hoping to get great deal for CD II, and they would make a bundle on that. Although sometimes think CD is the best of three albums from three lineups and that it was the final capping of this whole CD journey. There seems to be more material, have to wait and see.

If they can get another BB type deal, the label, band everyone is going to rolling in cash?

[gnr-dave]

"were playing songs we are thinking about NOT being on the record"

or something to that effect was what Axl said in 2002 at Leeds?

Personally I think the company told Axl to shove it up his butt if he was going to delay the album any longer and since these songs were by that time out there and some of them 8-10 years old that this was a natural to release the studio versions..

. i was pissed at the final product of CITR and TWAT..my opinion was when I listened to CD...this is it?????

Good Album but makes me wonder if the release was a contractual obligation to recoup the money spent to record it.

The big guns are are yet to come.

Like I have said before, the more Axl worked on the songs after 2002 the worse the songs got.

The leaks were much better than the album versions.

There was most likely a contractual thing, wasnt there a rumor about another GH or best of, if axl missed the dead line.

Best guess is Axl just handed over all the leaks since we have heard all of the songs on CD but two, and he is saving the rest for the follow ups.

Since they will all be songs we have not heard. CD recouped everything CD cost.

The two follow ups will be gravey

Don't agree with leaks being better, they may not be significantly better but certain songs Bumble added stuff that took them to nother level, others like Cacther are just much more polished. CD production is just the production of the times, same as AFD and UYI were products of the times.

Do agree that maybe they are hoping to get great deal for CD II, and they would make a bundle on that. Although sometimes think CD is the best of three albums from three lineups and that it was the final capping of this whole CD journey. There seems to be more material, have to wait and see.

If they can get another BB type deal, the label, band everyone is going to rolling in cash?

BBF didnt take anything to a different level, he ruined the songs he was on. His rhiad and CITR solos are abortions, and even though we never heard it, its a joke he redid BHs SR solo.

HIs extra noodling and guitar strums adding nothing to the other songs. And Ron single handedly ruined better esp with his giant fart guitar slide over the interlude.

The first version of better is MUCH better than the album version. Ron and Frank are the worse things that ever happened to this band.

Axl would be stupid to add more Ron and Frank and take off BH and Brain of the follow ups.

That is why we need to hear the leaks to hear the songs the way they were meant to be heard, not with Ron and Franks terrible additions.

I guarantee if we ever get the 2002 versions of CD they would blow away the album versions.

Edited April 27, 2010 by gnr-dave

[wasted]

I thought what Ron added to CD those rythmn parts were amazing, I think he did the dramatic guitars on ITW, all his solos are fine. I love his Riad solo.

If I do, i'm sure others do, so it's mute point, he didn't ruin anything. Maybe for you, others, but not all. Being too negative here I think, more than anything.

You may have liked 2002 version of album but it didn't happen. When I listen to CD I don't hear any big disaster, it's a smooth professional album. Ok, 2002 version maybe be more wild or crazy, grungey, I'm going on Oh My God demo. But we don't know that, we can only suspect.

In someways what makes CD so great is that it has all the elements from UYI, and the various line up changes that went into making it, so it's complex mix of all these influences, it's not grunge or nu metal or hair metal or classic rock, it's all of those things and maybe something fresh because of that.

[gnr-dave]

I thought what Ron added to CD those rythmn parts were amazing, I think he did the dramatic guitars on ITW, all his solos are fine. I love his Riad solo.

If I do, i'm sure others do, so it's mute point, he didn't ruin anything. Maybe for you, others, but not all. Being too negative here I think, more than anything.

You may have liked 2002 version of album but it didn't happen. When I listen to CD I don't hear any big disaster, it's a smooth professional album. Ok, 2002 version maybe be more wild or crazy, grungey, I'm going on Oh My God demo. But we don't know that, we can only suspect.

In someways what makes CD so great is that it has all the elements from UYI, and the various line up changes that went into making it, so it's complex mix of all these influences, it's not grunge or nu metal or hair metal or classic rock, it's all of those things and maybe something fresh because of that.

The album is a huge disaster on most of the songs you can hear the cut and pastes of the new parts over the old.

ItW was ruined by the new parts the leak was sooo much bettere

[wasted]

I thought what Ron added to CD those rythmn parts were amazing, I think he did the dramatic guitars on ITW, all his solos are fine. I love his Riad solo.

If I do, i'm sure others do, so it's mute point, he didn't ruin anything. Maybe for you, others, but not all. Being too negative here I think, more than anything.

You may have liked 2002 version of album but it didn't happen. When I listen to CD I don't hear any big disaster, it's a smooth professional album. Ok, 2002 version maybe be more wild or crazy, grungey, I'm going on Oh My God demo. But we don't know that, we can only suspect.

In someways what makes CD so great is that it has all the elements from UYI, and the various line up changes that went into making it, so it's complex mix of all these influences, it's not grunge or nu metal or hair metal or classic rock, it's all of those things and maybe something fresh because of that.

The album is a huge disaster on most of the songs you can hear the cut and pastes of the new parts over the old.

ItW was ruined by the new parts the leak was sooo much bettere

I don't hear any of this disaster. you should probably listen to it more, it takes a while but there's definitely something to be gotten out of CD on it's own terms. I respect that you prefer older versions, I just don't have a problem with and have almost forgotten about old demo versions. Last time I checked Catcher demo, it wasn't all that. To me CD is the finished product and it's great. It's better now than when I first heard it, it's really hard to find a flaw in it. A journey from rage to acceptance, very well conceived and executed perfectly. What's not to like?

[gnr-dave]

I thought what Ron added to CD those rythmn parts were amazing, I think he did the dramatic guitars on ITW, all his solos are fine. I love his Riad solo.

If I do, i'm sure others do, so it's mute point, he didn't ruin anything. Maybe for you, others, but not all. Being too negative here I think, more than anything.

You may have liked 2002 version of album but it didn't happen. When I listen to CD I don't hear any big disaster, it's a smooth professional album. Ok, 2002 version maybe be more wild or crazy, grungey, I'm going on Oh My God demo. But we don't know that, we can only suspect.

In someways what makes CD so great is that it has all the elements from UYI, and the various line up changes that went into making it, so it's complex mix of all these influences, it's not grunge or nu metal or hair metal or classic rock, it's all of those things and maybe something fresh because of that.

The album is a huge disaster on most of the songs you can hear the cut and pastes of the new parts over the old.

ItW was ruined by the new parts the leak was sooo much bettere

I don't hear any of this disaster. you should probably listen to it more, it takes a while but there's definitely something to be gotten out of CD on it's own terms. I respect that you prefer older versions, I just don't have a problem with and have almost forgotten about old demo versions. Last time I checked Catcher demo, it wasn't all that. To me CD is the finished product and it's great. It's better now than when I first heard it, it's really hard to find a flaw in it. A journey from rage to acceptance, very well conceived and executed perfectly. What's not to like?

Whats not to like? Ron and Frank for two.

Also the album took ten years and axls vocals are still lacking on some of the songs (madagascar and scrapped for example).

I do listen to it enough and the flaws stick out like a sore thumb. Axl over did it on a lot of the songs and it took away the rawness of the songs and the flow

Its way too cut and paste on the songs Ron redid parts. That is the biggest problem with CD. The more Axl cut and pasted the less the song flowed together.

CITR is the worse example, you can hear how there are parts from the 1999 version, the 2002 version and the 2007 version.

Its all thrown into one and it sounds disjointed. CD should have been perfection and it was a mess.

The same thing happened with the UYIs but the label made Axl stop tinkering, thank god.

Hopefully someday we will hear the mixes slash spoke about a few years ago, that were more raw and less overproduced.

Since we heard how Ron and Frank ruined CD vs the leaks, Axl should use the old versions of the new album.

And just release it before the next set leaks out.

Edited April 27, 2010 by gnr-dave