Interesting comment from Robin on the number of songs (back in '00)

[Nintari]

You're not in the band-you have no input whatsoever.

that's why they speculate

They just don't want to admit to themselves that for better or for worse, Chinese Democracy was exactly what Axl wanted and contained what he thought was the best material the band had. They don't have the equivalent of Dark Side of the Moon in the can waiting for just the right moment to be released. Outtakes are usually unreleased because they just aren't that good.

How do you know what's left in Axl's vault? For all we know the second part of Chinese Democracy could be better than what was released.

As for the outtakes comment, Again we don't know. We havn't heard the material in question. Some songs go together well as a cohesive unit. the unreleased stuff could be amazing on it's own, but best kept for part 2.

The truth is only if/when CD2 is released, we'll have something to compare Chinese Democracy to. Until then, everything is just pure speculation fuled by what we want it to be.

None of us really know what's there, but come on...think about it. Why would Axl release subpar material and keep the best to himself? CD was the big come back album. Everything was riding on it. I doubt he'd purposely release a bunch of B side songs instead of his best stuff. That just makes no sense to me.

[axl666]

You're not in the band-you have no input whatsoever.

that's why they speculate

They just don't want to admit to themselves that for better or for worse, Chinese Democracy was exactly what Axl wanted and contained what he thought was the best material the band had. They don't have the equivalent of Dark Side of the Moon in the can waiting for just the right moment to be released. Outtakes are usually unreleased because they just aren't that good.

How do you know what's left in Axl's vault? For all we know the second part of Chinese Democracy could be better than what was released.

As for the outtakes comment, Again we don't know. We havn't heard the material in question. Some songs go together well as a cohesive unit. the unreleased stuff could be amazing on it's own, but best kept for part 2.

The truth is only if/when CD2 is released, we'll have something to compare Chinese Democracy to. Until then, everything is just pure speculation fuled by what we want it to be.

None of us really know what's there, but come on...think about it. Why would Axl release subpar material and keep the best to himself? CD was the big come back album. Everything was riding on it. I doubt he'd purposely release a bunch of B side songs instead of his best stuff. That just makes no sense to me.

I see where your coming from. However another explanation is that he released the songs that already leaked in order to satisfy the record company,

and kept other songs back for himself. Axl might have never wanted to release chinese democracy.

[Vincent Vega]

You're not in the band-you have no input whatsoever.

that's why they speculate

They just don't want to admit to themselves that for better or for worse, Chinese Democracy was exactly what Axl wanted and contained what he thought was the best material the band had. They don't have the equivalent of Dark Side of the Moon in the can waiting for just the right moment to be released. Outtakes are usually unreleased because they just aren't that good.

How do you know what's left in Axl's vault? For all we know the second part of Chinese Democracy could be better than what was released.

As for the outtakes comment, Again we don't know. We havn't heard the material in question. Some songs go together well as a cohesive unit. the unreleased stuff could be amazing on it's own, but best kept for part 2.

The truth is only if/when CD2 is released, we'll have something to compare Chinese Democracy to. Until then, everything is just pure speculation fuled by what we want it to be.

None of us really know what's there, but come on...think about it. Why would Axl release subpar material and keep the best to himself? CD was the big come back album. Everything was riding on it. I doubt he'd purposely release a bunch of B side songs instead of his best stuff. That just makes no sense to me.

Well, the leaks might have had something to do with which songs ended up on the album for one. You can't have a song leak and then not put it on the record. That'd just mean you in essence lost two songs from your vault instead of one.

Secondly, the record company might've demanded that the more classical GN'R sounding songs (like Street of Dreams, for example) go on the first record.

[bax]

You're not in the band-you have no input whatsoever.

that's why they speculate

They just don't want to admit to themselves that for better or for worse, Chinese Democracy was exactly what Axl wanted and contained what he thought was the best material the band had. They don't have the equivalent of Dark Side of the Moon in the can waiting for just the right moment to be released. Outtakes are usually unreleased because they just aren't that good.

That's not true though.

You Could Be Mine, November Rain, Don't Cry, The Garden, Bad Obsession and Back Off Bitch were all AFD era ''outtakes.''

No they weren't. They were written but not recorded.

You're not in the band-you have no input whatsoever.

that's why they speculate

They just don't want to admit to themselves that for better or for worse, Chinese Democracy was exactly what Axl wanted and contained what he thought was the best material the band had. They don't have the equivalent of Dark Side of the Moon in the can waiting for just the right moment to be released. Outtakes are usually unreleased because they just aren't that good.

How do you know what's left in Axl's vault? For all we know the second part of Chinese Democracy could be better than what was released.

As for the outtakes comment, again we don't know. We havn't heard the material in question. Some songs go together well as a cohesive unit. the unreleased stuff could be amazing on it's own, but best kept for part 2.

The truth is only if/when CD2 is released, we'll have something to compare Chinese Democracy to. Until then, everything is just pure speculation fuled by what we want it to be.

So you speculate that speculating that speculation is pointless is speculation. We are approaching entropy.

[Rovim]

You're not in the band-you have no input whatsoever.

that's why they speculate

They just don't want to admit to themselves that for better or for worse, Chinese Democracy was exactly what Axl wanted and contained what he thought was the best material the band had. They don't have the equivalent of Dark Side of the Moon in the can waiting for just the right moment to be released. Outtakes are usually unreleased because they just aren't that good.

How do you know what's left in Axl's vault? For all we know the second part of Chinese Democracy could be better than what was released.

As for the outtakes comment, Again we don't know. We havn't heard the material in question. Some songs go together well as a cohesive unit. the unreleased stuff could be amazing on it's own, but best kept for part 2.

The truth is only if/when CD2 is released, we'll have something to compare Chinese Democracy to. Until then, everything is just pure speculation fuled by what we want it to be.

None of us really know what's there, but come on...think about it. Why would Axl release subpar material and keep the best to himself? CD was the big come back album. Everything was riding on it. I doubt he'd purposely release a bunch of B side songs instead of his best stuff. That just makes no sense to me.

You're Crazy and Anything Goes over November Rain and Don't Cry on AFD? first full length debut album, everything was riding on it, but despite the superior quality and hit potential of those two balllads, it wasn't right for the general sound of the record to include them in there, and so they kept those for UYI.

Edited November 17, 2010 by Rovim

[bax]

I have no doubt that there are probably tons of musical pieces recorded in some form or another, and furthermore some of those riffs might have had the potential to make better songs than anything that was released. To me, the fact that nothing has leaked(other than the Checkmate clip) except for songs on CD tells me that more than likely there just isn't much-if any- complete material left.

[Rovim]

I have no doubt that there are probably tons of musical pieces recorded in some form or another, and furthermore some of those riffs might have had the potential to make better songs than anything that was released. To me, the fact that nothing has leaked(other than the Checkmate clip) except for songs on CD tells me that more than likely there just isn't much-if any- complete material left.

Or maybe Axl is extra carefull with the unreleased material, and learned something from what happend the last time he dropped his guards and the songs leaked.

Besides, Axl, Bumble, Brain, May and others have said there is at least one more album worth of unheard material with vocals, or something similar to that effect.

Edited November 17, 2010 by Rovim

[CAFC Nick]

I honestly believe there are quite a number of other songs out there, that one may argue could be released as a 'finished' product.

[Vincent Vega]

You're not in the band-you have no input whatsoever.

that's why they speculate

They just don't want to admit to themselves that for better or for worse, Chinese Democracy was exactly what Axl wanted and contained what he thought was the best material the band had. They don't have the equivalent of Dark Side of the Moon in the can waiting for just the right moment to be released. Outtakes are usually unreleased because they just aren't that good.

That's not true though.

You Could Be Mine, November Rain, Don't Cry, The Garden, Bad Obsession and Back Off Bitch were all AFD era ''outtakes.''

No they weren't. They were written but not recorded.

You're not in the band-you have no input whatsoever.

that's why they speculate

They just don't want to admit to themselves that for better or for worse, Chinese Democracy was exactly what Axl wanted and contained what he thought was the best material the band had. They don't have the equivalent of Dark Side of the Moon in the can waiting for just the right moment to be released. Outtakes are usually unreleased because they just aren't that good.

How do you know what's left in Axl's vault? For all we know the second part of Chinese Democracy could be better than what was released.

As for the outtakes comment, again we don't know. We havn't heard the material in question. Some songs go together well as a cohesive unit. the unreleased stuff could be amazing on it's own, but best kept for part 2.

The truth is only if/when CD2 is released, we'll have something to compare Chinese Democracy to. Until then, everything is just pure speculation fuled by what we want it to be.

So you speculate that speculating that speculation is pointless is speculation. We are approaching entropy.

Yes they were recorded. There are demoes out there for Back Off Bitch, November Rain, The Garden and I believe Bad Obsession which date from the AFD era.

[Apollo]

You're not in the band-you have no input whatsoever.

that's why they speculate

They just don't want to admit to themselves that for better or for worse, Chinese Democracy was exactly what Axl wanted and contained what he thought was the best material the band had. They don't have the equivalent of Dark Side of the Moon in the can waiting for just the right moment to be released. Outtakes are usually unreleased because they just aren't that good.

Yeah but most of the folks here are Axl junkies, and any new crumbs from him that may leak out, they latch onto like crackheads, and instantly declare the greatest music ever made in the universe after getting their Axl fix...

They would take any unfinished work, or outtakes.

Actually on the subject of outtakes or early edits, I gotta say the leaks we got of most of the CD songs, sound better than the finished tracks on the album.

Don't forget to mention the slash-lover/axl-hater group either. The forum members who think that slash was the driving and main force behind the old GnR, that everything he does is pure Gold, and that everything Axl does is pure shit.

You're not in the band-you have no input whatsoever.

that's why they speculate

They just don't want to admit to themselves that for better or for worse, Chinese Democracy was exactly what Axl wanted and contained what he thought was the best material the band had. They don't have the equivalent of Dark Side of the Moon in the can waiting for just the right moment to be released. Outtakes are usually unreleased because they just aren't that good.

Yeah but most of the folks here are Axl junkies, and any new crumbs from him that may leak out, they latch onto like crackheads, and instantly declare the greatest music ever made in the universe after getting their Axl fix...

They would take any unfinished work, or outtakes.

Actually on the subject of outtakes or early edits, I gotta say the leaks we got of most of the CD songs, sound better than the finished tracks on the album.

Don't forget to mention the slash-lover/axl-hater group either. The forum members who think that slash was the driving and main force behind the old GnR, that everything he does is pure Gold, and that everything Axl does is pure shit.

[Nintari]

80 songs? Fuck my ass....that's alot.

[Vincent Vega]

80 songs? Fuck my ass....that's alot.

Moby said in 1997 that there were ''thousands'' of DAT tapes.

[dalsh327]

Vault material usually turns out to be more hype than anything amazing. Good, but not great. It just winds up being interesting when a future box set is released. But what's a shame is when a band has to shelve a nearly completed album because the record company said that the band needed to come up with something more 'radio friendly'.

That's a whole thread in itself, whether there's "great unheard" demos and projects that were shelved, or pulled from release, and due to fan demand or the band gaining a hold of the tapes, decided to release it. Like Prince's "Black Album" was supposed to be released, was pulled, then because of bootlegs, WB decided to do a limited run. Or the long journey of Brian Wilson's "Smile". The Who's "Lifehouse" (which turned into "Who's Next") Dennis Wilson's "Bambu" (which is now the second disc of "Pacific Ocean Blue" reissue - great album). Prince supposedly has 500 songs in his vault, but it doesn't mean they're good.

Sometimes a song can take years before appearing on an album. Beatles "One after 909" was one of their first songs, but wound up on "Let It Be", their last album. There's 15 songs The Beatles wrote while together that wound up on solo albums. Springsteen simultaneously worked on "Nebraska' and "Born in the USA", which sound like entirely different albums. Van Halen's "House of Pain" was recorded in 1976 as a demo, legally released on "1984".

Comedian Steve Alllen used to brag he had 8500 published songs. He made Frankie Laine a bet he could write 50 songs a day for a week, and won the bet. If Axl wrote a song a day, regardless of whether they were good or bad, and decided to register them, he'd have thousands.

[Vincent Vega]

Vault material usually turns out to be more hype than anything amazing. Good, but not great. It just winds up being interesting when a future box set is released. But what's a shame is when a band has to shelve a nearly completed album because the record company said that the band needed to come up with something more 'radio friendly'.

That's a whole thread in itself, whether there's "great unheard" demos and projects that were shelved, or pulled from release, and due to fan demand or the band gaining a hold of the tapes, decided to release it. Like Prince's "Black Album" was supposed to be released, was pulled, then because of bootlegs, WB decided to do a limited run. Or the long journey of Brian Wilson's "Smile". The Who's "Lifehouse" (which turned into "Who's Next") Dennis Wilson's "Bambu" (which is now the second disc of "Pacific Ocean Blue" reissue - great album). Prince supposedly has 500 songs in his vault, but it doesn't mean they're good.

Sometimes a song can take years before appearing on an album. Beatles "One after 909" was one of their first songs, but wound up on "Let It Be", their last album. There's 15 songs The Beatles wrote while together that wound up on solo albums. Springsteen simultaneously worked on "Nebraska' and "Born in the USA", which sound like entirely different albums. Van Halen's "House of Pain" was recorded in 1976 as a demo, legally released on "1984".

Comedian Steve Alllen used to brag he had 8500 published songs. He made Frankie Laine a bet he could write 50 songs a day for a week, and won the bet. If Axl wrote a song a day, regardless of whether they were good or bad, and decided to register them, he'd have thousands.

I think what happened with the Beatles is what happened with Guns.

Slash's 1995 Guns album became Snakepit.

His 1996 ideas might've went into VR (remember Axl mentioning Slash played Fall to Pieces for him)

Izzy's ideas for his first solo album were supposed to be in Guns I think.

Axl's ideas for Guns next record manifested itself in CD.

Edited November 17, 2010 by Indigo Child

[wasted]

Style is important, many people scream the truth, but without style it is nothing.

[Nintari]

Bukowski?!?

[phaeryen]

Have you guys also considered, that out of these thousands of DAT tapes of unfinished material:

how much of it has the wrong drummer of the three, how much of it has robin finck allover it, how much is dominated by buckethead leads and whacky(yet great) ideas?

You know Axl is the kind of guy who will hate your guts forever if he gets it into his head that you have "betrayed" him, and we pretty much know that atleast Robin Finck is on this level now. So if there are songs that have too much of his "taint" on them, Axl Rose will never want people to hear that stuff, just out of spite.

For reference, see how Axl feels about some of the musical contributions by former members on the first major albums past albums in the 2000's.

[The Glow Inc.]

Well, Axl also said that Robin was "still part of GnR in virtue of his involvement in Chinese Democracy".

I suppose that it means that if CD II ever gets released, we will get to hear his "Stevie Ray Vaughan" blues solo...

[amacfantasy]

Well, Axl also said that Robin was "still part of GnR in virtue of his involvement in Chinese Democracy".

I suppose that it means that if CD II ever gets released, we will get to hear his "Stevie Ray Vaughan" blues solo...

yea thats true, i think even Axl knows that you shouldnt get rid of something thats just too damn cool from the CD era recordings of his nuguns because of what the persons status is now, cuz he will eventually want the world to hear it. But this is why i hope for leaks, even in a best case scenario we will only get a fraction of this cd era music in released form but hardcore GNR fans would want every last drop of these reported hundreds/thousands of recordings and different versions of songs or at least i would

[wasted]

"I've been busy."

[sascha]

How long does it take to realise there never were "80 songs" nor "three albums"?

Those "thousands of DAT tapes" (if that's true) is probably more like 1000 ideas, bits, pieces, fragments - much of wich ended up on the album that was released.

CD plus a handful of songs that didn't make the album is probably all there ever was.

So Axl has some "good shit"? THEN WHERE THE FUCK HAS IT BEEN ALL MY LIFE? AND YOURS? AND HIS? AND THEIRS? AND HOW DOES IT SOUND? WHAT ARE THE SONGS ABOUT? None of those who talk about them "thousands of tapes" ever heard a FULL SONG with vocals.

Ask Baz what "The General" is about.

Ask "Moby" about ONE FUCKING LYRIC from those "thousands of DAT tapes".

I don't think the band or anyone around them is tight lipped about the material because they are under some kind of misterious shut up contract, they probably just don't have a fucking song to talk about as there simply are no songs.

He probably doesn't have more than a handful of songs left that didn't make the cut for CD and THAT'S IT. If there were so many songs, we would have heard more than a just handful of song titles and if there was an actual follow up album in the making we would have been teased with a leak or a live performance by now.

James Cameron probably has a million tapes and hard drives with sketches and ideas but that doesn't mean they will ever materialise into actual films for you to see and enjoy.

WAKE THE FUCK UP!!

Until I actually HEAR a good portion of those legendary unknown songs, common sense tells me there are no albums in the vaults, not even songs. Only ideas, drafts, demos at best.

I don't want to piss on the band or anything, I would LOVE to hear more material from Axl and the guys, the old stuff with Buckethead, the stuff he did with Izzy and also what the "current" version might come up with one day. But all that talk about mysterious sessions and albums just leads to major dissapointment in the end and it also puts the band under huge pressure. Nothing good ever comes from that. If there is an album and you get to hear it, eventually, you will be like "that's all?" and the pressure and expetations in advance only put Axl in the position of even more perfectionism - and we all know were that lead to.

Edited November 17, 2010 by sascha

[wasted]

Now I'm totally depressed.

[axl666]

Now I'm totally depressed.

One of Axl's main problems is that he's not able to manage people's expectations by releasing useful

information at the right time.

Exhibit a: Would there be so much trouble at concerts if people were told in advance exactly what time

axl

would show up?

Exhibit b: How much effort does it take to come out and state exactly what the situation is when it comes

to the unreleased material and when it might be coming out? It's not like a super-important secret.

No information=increased uncertainty=speculation

[SunnyDRE]

I have no doubt that there are probably tons of musical pieces recorded in some form or another, and furthermore some of those riffs might have had the potential to make better songs than anything that was released. To me, the fact that nothing has leaked(other than the Checkmate clip) except for songs on CD tells me that more than likely there just isn't much-if any- complete material left.

Axl has given us that impression; but on this subject so many would rather believe anyone but him.

silly.

[tange]

what part of Brain and Bumblefoot working on 30 songs don't you doubters get? I'm not sure why this is so hard to comprehend.

I don't know if you guys have some agenda as I haven't been here that long. Maybe its the lack of info, you guys are on decoder ring overload.

Axl said two things that taken together are all you need to know.

1. Hes always looked at CD as a double.

2. He confirmed 12 songs in his chats and then talked about one of them to some detail. That's hardly evidence that there is nothing but sketches left.

LORDY!

Edited November 17, 2010 by tange