Should Guns have done a "Black & Blue"?

[Vincent Vega]

Just before recording sessions were to begin for the Rolling Stones next album, lead guitarist Mick Taylor suddenly left the band in November 1974. The sessions were set to begin in December. The band, not wanting to ditch their scheduled sessions, used the sessions as not only an attempt to hold the band together after the big blow of the lead guitarist leaving but also as a chance to audition Mick's replacement. Many candidates were auditioned for the lead spot, including Peter Frampton, Steve Marriot, Wayne Perkins, Harvey Mandel, and Ron Wood. Perkins, Mandels, and Wood's contributions to the album made it to the final released album and all three guitarists play on different tracks. The decision came down to Perkins (who was a player in the same style as Mick Taylor) and Wood (who played similar to rhythm guitarist Keith Richards). Ultimately, Wood was chosen and officially named the new lead guitarist in 1976 after touring with the band as a temporary member in 1975.

After Gilby being fired, and the seeming disagreement on Axl and Slash's parts over who the next rhythm guitarist should be (Slash says they auditioned around ten different guitarists) do you think Guns should have used the next album as a testing ground and just released an easy, light, fun "Black & Blue" sort of album--Not really an "official" Guns album in the traditional sense, but an album of new material that acted as both a testing ground for a new rhythm man and a stop gap. It could've been a mini album or something--Even just 5-10 original songs would've been cool.

Personally, I think Axl should have probably appeased Slash and released a simple, if subpar album--Think Guns' version of "Presence" or "Black & Blue"--Not really as good as the previous material, but simple, quickly written and recorded, and stripped down sort of tunes. It might have saved the band.

Edited December 6, 2010 by Indigo Child

[James Bond]

I'm not sure how the situation would have panned out for Guns, but you're right. A simplistic, quick album might have been just what the band needed. From a fans perspective, it would have been a nice breath of fresh air after the many long songs on the Illusion albums. Would have been a decent way to go back to the Appetite style even though it wouldn't necessarily match Appetite on a songwriting level. It's hard to judge how things would have gone from there, but it may have kept Slash around longer. Slash did say (I forget where, probably his book) that he would have gone in any direction Axl wanted as long as the creative energy/vibe was there. Doing a quick album may have just been enough to let Slash do his thing before starting to branch off in other directions. Perhaps after such an easy recording process and finding a suitable rhythm player the band would feel a renewed energy to put a lot of time into the next project and try out different things. Who knows?

[Vincent Vega]

I'm not sure how the situation would have panned out for Guns, but you're right. A simplistic, quick album might have been just what the band needed. From a fans perspective, it would have been a nice breath of fresh air after the many long songs on the Illusion albums. Would have been a decent way to go back to the Appetite style even though it wouldn't necessarily match Appetite on a songwriting level. It's hard to judge how things would have gone from there, but it may have kept Slash around longer. Slash did say (I forget where, probably his book) that he would have gone in any direction Axl wanted as long as the creative energy/vibe was there. Doing a quick album may have just been enough to let Slash do his thing before starting to branch off in other directions. Perhaps after such an easy recording process and finding a suitable rhythm player the band would feel a renewed energy to put a lot of time into the next project and try out different things. Who knows?

The creative vibe was there. Unless Duff, Slash, and Matt were all lying, they recorded at least 7 songs by August 1996:

"The record will be all up-tempo rock songs ("No ballads," McKagan said firmly) and it will be just 12 songs, with a release planned for next spring." (Duff, Addicted to Noise, 08/30/96)

"The songs are really good, and I have a good vibe about it. I wouldn't want to go out and do a bad Guns N' Roses record." (Slash, Kerrang, 09/21/96)

"I feel that some of the recordings we did in that limited amount of time had some of the best playing that Slash had done at least since Illusions. I was there. I know what I heard and it was pretty exciting." (Axl, press release, 08/14/02)

"We have been doing mostly Axl's material." (Slash chat, 10/16/96)

"I think that some of the riffs that were coming out of [slash] were the meanest, most contemporary, bluesiest, rocking thing since Aerosmith's Rocks. The 2000 version of Aerosmith Rocks or the 1996 Aerosmith Rocks by the time we would have put it out." (Axl, press release, 08/14/02)

"Slash played the key bits of Fall to Pieces, but once I showed some interest that was over." (Axl, MyGNR, 12/14/08)

"[slash] also enthuses about the new material Guns N' Roses have been writing. Apperently, the band members are currently trading tapes amongst themselves [before the actual recording sessions]. "It's amazing stuff," he says." (Slash, Kerrang, 09/21/96)

"Even if we don't sell any copy of the next album, I will be very proud of what we did. But I don't worry about it, I know that what we are doing right now is great. [...] We are working on rock songs that last only 4 minutes (laughs). We already did 7 songs and we will write 7 others. [...] It will be a single album with 10 or 12 songs." (Matt, 1996)

"This is not as sophisticated as Illusion, but not as wild as Appetite. It's in the middle. Maybe more groovy. Musically, we are all better. I never heard Duff play like that." (Matt, 1996)

"I originally wanted to make a traditional record or try to get back to an "Appetite [For Destruction]" thing or something, because that would have been a lot easier for me to do. I was involved in a lot of lawsuits for Guns N' Roses and in my own personal life, so I didn't have a lot of time to try and develop a new style or re-invent myself, so I was hoping to write a traditional thing, but I was not really allowed to do that." (Axl, MTV interview, 11/08/99)

"So, I opted for what I thought would or should've made the band and especially Slash very happy. Basically I was interested in making a Slash record with some contributions from everybody else." (Axl, press release, 08/14/02)

According to Slash, he felt RESPECT wasn't there--Mutual respect between him and Axl. Also, for whatever weird reason, Slash HATED Paul Tobias, who was Axl's pick. Personally, I think Paul had the chops. I can kind of understand why Axl stuck him in there--They had tried out at least 10 different guitarists, plus Zakk Wylde, and Slash turned down EVERY SINGLE ONE of them.

As an aside, according to Matt at the time, Guns was even planning to tour, starting in South America in January 1997, but these plans were put aside due to Slash leaving:

"We're definitely getting geared up to do another record," says Sorum, who brings his all-star side band, Neurotic Outsiders, to the Warehouse on Sunday. "We're already starting to make tour plans. We've got a possible tour starting in South America in January and then we're going to stop and finish the record and probably tour next summer." (Matt, Toronto Sun, 09/04/96)

Edited December 6, 2010 by Indigo Child

[Jumpin' Jack Flash]

You had me until you called Presence subpar.

[Vincent Vega]

You had me until you called Presence subpar.

Compared to Zoso, Houses of the Holy, and Physical Graffiti, it is.

[Vincent Vega]

GN'R does not do "easy, light fun" albums.

GN'R Lies.

[James Bond]

@ IndigoChild

Fair enough, I was just trying to recall what Slash had said in his book. I think he was probably referring to a creative vibe between him and Axl, which is where their two sides of the story get messed up. These snippets you posted show that material was being worked on the whole time but according to Axl as soon as he tried to put his stamp on Slash's material Slash was no longer interested. Hard to say. I'd say Slash's best work was done on Axl's material. I'm one of those who believe that they both kind of need each other to bring out their best work. Both alone write good material, but together that good material is amplified.

[moreblack]

Think Guns' version of "Presence" or "Black & Blue"--Not really as good as the previous material, but simple, quickly written and recorded, and stripped down sort of tunes.

Some folks like to knock Presence as the weak Zep album, but Achilles' Last Stand is still better than most of the classics.

[Jumpin' Jack Flash]

You had me until you called Presence subpar.

Compared to Zoso, Houses of the Holy, and Physical Graffiti, it is.

I think Presence is on par with all of those actually, but I don't think the general consensus would be in agreement to that.

Either way, I understand your overall point.

[moreblack]

You had me until you called Presence subpar.

Compared to Zoso, Houses of the Holy, and Physical Graffiti, it is.

I think Presence is on par with all of those actually, but I don't think the general consensus would be in agreement to that.

Presence is a grower. But once you get it, it's awesome.

[Jumpin' Jack Flash]

You had me until you called Presence subpar.

Compared to Zoso, Houses of the Holy, and Physical Graffiti, it is.

I think Presence is on par with all of those actually, but I don't think the general consensus would be in agreement to that.

Presence is a grower. But once you get it, it's awesome.

Agreed. It's a brilliant piece of work.

[Quix]

You had me until you called Presence subpar.

Compared to Zoso, Houses of the Holy, and Physical Graffiti, it is.

I think Presence is on par with all of those actually, but I don't think the general consensus would be in agreement to that.

Presence is a grower. But once you get it, it's awesome.

Agreed. It's a brilliant piece of work.

Agreed.

[GnR Chris]

I have a question:

If the band had about six or seven songs in the can, or at least recorded as demos they were swapping back and forth, what became of them? Did the evolve into Velvet Revolver songs or current Gn'R material? I wonder why demos or bootlegs have never surfaced. Or have they?

[Vincent Vega]

I have a question:

If the band had about six or seven songs in the can, or at least recorded as demos they were swapping back and forth, what became of them? Did the evolve into Velvet Revolver songs or current Gn'R material? I wonder why demos or bootlegs have never surfaced. Or have they?

They probably went into Slash's Snakepit's econd album (Ain't Life Grand), VR and CD.

Axl said back around '95-96 Slash played him Fall to Pieces, so that song or at least the main riff and key bits of it date from 1994-1996.