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Led Zeppelin


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Guest Len B'stard

Zeppelin worked because they were never one dimensional, say what you want about the Pistols or whoever the fuck came after, but they were mostly good at one thing. And is sure as fuck wasn't playing their instruments. :rofl-lol:

But why does this have to turn into Zeppelin sucks Punk rules? It's such a tired old debate. And you don't hear Zep fans tearing into The Ramones or anyone else from that time, their motivations were political/protest/anti establishment, Zeppelin's were musical, but it's not a fucking arms race.

Zeppelin were great, that's not even in question.

OK, guilty of kinda making it a them vs punk thing...and often...but it's only because their criticisms of that kinda band and that kinda music and the direction that that kind of band took music are so valid.

The weird thing is if you break down the component parts of Zeppelin, i quite like em, Page came up with some really brilliant riffs...and pretty consistently too, Bonzo was brilliant too, if a little lacking in colour and flourish...and JPJ was positively funky at times...and they sounded interesting together but at the same time, Plant lyrics were fuckin lame...the content weren't there for me...and also, they seemed to like...have really uninteresting musical ideas. I think i might've been a huge fan if they'd've broken up after the first few albums y'know.

What gets me though about your argument about the Pistols and Ramones thing not being musical is the arrogance of that statement...as if perfecting simplicity is somehow less of a virtuosity than pissing around on the fretboard for 20 minutes til the audience falls asleep. Just cuz music is raw and perhaps a little sloppy, it gives it its own character, it don't mean your shit just cuz you don't sound like something programmed into the memory bank of a casio keyboard.

there once was a bloke called trevor...who wore a mac in rainy weather...and although he though he was clever the cunt could've bought an umbrella...and he's climbing the stairway to forever!!!

You arent too bright are you? Anyone with even half a mind can easily see that Zeppelin is easily one of the top rock bands ever.

And thats it is it, thats your well reasoned response? Well give yourself a hand, you've certainly shut me up. If you got something to say, say it. Yeah they're one of the top rock bands insofar as being lauded, being million-selling, being good individual artists and working well together as a unit...that don't make for good music always though, not to my mind. Zep are actually a very early example of why supergroups are not always a good idea. Gimme Cream anyday.

Not too bright, fuck off, what, cuz i don't like Led Zeppelin? Right well lump me in with the dunces then if thats the yardstick of intelligence....cunt.

Edited by sugaraylen
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Zeppelin worked because they were never one dimensional, say what you want about the Pistols or whoever the fuck came after, but they were mostly good at one thing. And is sure as fuck wasn't playing their instruments. :rofl-lol:

But why does this have to turn into Zeppelin sucks Punk rules? It's such a tired old debate. And you don't hear Zep fans tearing into The Ramones or anyone else from that time, their motivations were political/protest/anti establishment, Zeppelin's were musical, but it's not a fucking arms race.

Zeppelin were great, that's not even in question.

OK, guilty of kinda making it a them vs punk thing...and often...but it's only because their criticisms of that kinda band and that kinda music and the direction that that kind of band took music are so valid.

The weird thing is if you break down the component parts of Zeppelin, i quite like em, Page came up with some really brilliant riffs...and pretty consistently too, Bonzo was brilliant too, if a little lacking in colour and flourish...and JPJ was positively funky at times...and they sounded interesting together but at the same time, Plant lyrics were fuckin lame...the content weren't there for me...and also, they seemed to like...have really uninteresting musical ideas. I think i might've been a huge fan if they'd've broken up after the first few albums y'know.

"unintersting musical ideas" no way.

Page's riffs are some of the most copied of all time AND he was a killer producer in the studio. Bonzo's probably every rocker's dream drummer, and John Paul would do just about anything on any instrument, if anything they were light years ahead of their peers. There was a band with endless musical potential. And certainly one not limited to "rock", they had the ability and the crew to tackle pretty much any style they set their little eyes on. But not only that, they took whatever music they wanted to play, beat it into shape and force it into sounding like Zeppelin.

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Guest Len B'stard

and also, they seemed to like...have really uninteresting musical ideas.

So you'll take the other guys then, who have NO musical ideas :lol: or rather from what I've seen of them, no ideas? :lol:

:lol:

Sorry, John Lydon has no musical ideas? Led Zeppelin, at their heart, are about periphery. this is what gets me, Zeppelin, as musical as you think they are, never really did much but add shit on top of the established rock n roll format...is that was you call musical ideas? Thats like hanging shit on the Christmas tree. Then listen to the three albums John Lydon came out with after The Pistols first album...and you wanna talk about ideas :lol:

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Guns N' Roses for me.

Are they better than GN'R, I day yes, on a cultural standpoint, but as far as I go, I perfer Axl over Plant. I also never really got into Page's guitar playing, sure he's great, but sometime's he can be a bit overrrated.

I never really got into Zeppelin. Sur, they make good song's, there's just somethng about it that I don't like, or wanna listen to. :shrugs:

Edited by GNR123GNR456
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Guest Len B'stard
"unintersting musical ideas" no way.

Page's riffs are some of the most copied of all time AND he was a killer producer in the studio. Bonzo's probably every rocker's dream drummer, and John Paul would do just about anything on any instrument, if anything they were light years ahead of their peers. There was a band with endless musical potential. And certainly one not limited to "rock", they had the ability and the crew to tackle pretty much any style they set their little eyes on. .

Is that really a musical idea though? The ability to play different genres of music? It's not really is it, if you think about it and thats pretty much all you've said in terms of telling me actually what interesting musical ideas they had.

Interesting musical ideas, to my mind, ain't the ability to play different genres, especially not when its in comparison to certain bands out there who through supposed ineptitude, managed to meld completely individualistic styles of playing into something organic that you can't honestly say OK, that comes from this, that comes from there, ahhhh i see what he's doing there, THATS an interesting musical idea, THATS original.

But not only that, they took whatever music they wanted to play, beat it into shape and force it into sounding like Zeppelin

Yeah, made it sound like rock basically.

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Then listen to the three albums John Lydon came out with after The Pistols first album...and you wanna talk about ideas :lol:

Hey, hey, hey, you mentioned the Sex Pistols not what John Lydon made afterward. And I've heard Nevermind The Bollocks and honestly it barely sounds like music, more like noise really.

Zeppelin, as musical as you think they are, never really did much but add shit on top of the established rock n roll format...is that was you call musical ideas?

Absolutely.

Look I understand the importance of avant garde movements in the evolution of music, but I am of the firm conviction that nothing is ever got right from the first. When a new idea is brought forth it's almost universally implemented pretty badly at the start and then it's perfected. Sound perfectly logical to me.

Besides, I obviously think of music in a very different way from you. The 'art' aspect of it does not really speak much to me. I prefer what I call the 'craft' aspect. Music as a craft, with a song being something that you invest time in, something you polish, something you add to. That doesn't mean I don't have lightnings-in-bottles that I like, songs that according to their makers, just happened. It's just that there's not that many of them and they're usually from artists that didn't really rely on that kind of writing technique much anyway.

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Guest Len B'stard
the thing is, that stuff just came and went, it was of no consequence or influence

You are kidding me right? Keith Levenes guitar playing is copied by everyone from The Edge (not sure thats a good thing :lol:) to Steve Albini...the drum sound alone of Public Image Limited basically became the bedrock sound of 80s music, that dense drumming from the early PiL albums, particularly The Flowers of Romance album, Phil Collins is famous for having ripped off that thuddey echoey drum sound and it filtered pretty much into like 70% of music that came out of the 80s...are you kidding me, PiL and John Lydon had no consequence or influence? Their influence goes into so many musical avenues its untrue, even techno and dance. Even The Pixies, Nirvana...PiL were amazingly groundbreaking...and in a total original way as well, Zeppelin were influential as well but they were as influenced as they were influential, which makes them a spoke where PiL were a wheel.

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Guest Len B'stard

Then listen to the three albums John Lydon came out with after The Pistols first album...and you wanna talk about ideas :lol:

Hey, hey, hey, you mentioned the Sex Pistols not what John Lydon made afterward. And I've heard Nevermind The Bollocks and honestly it barely sounds like music, more like noise really.

Zeppelin, as musical as you think they are, never really did much but add shit on top of the established rock n roll format...is that was you call musical ideas?

Absolutely.

Look I understand the importance of avant garde movements in the evolution of music, but I am of the firm conviction that nothing is ever got right from the first. When a new idea is brought forth it's almost universally implemented pretty badly at the start and then it's perfected. Sound perfectly logical to me.

Besides, I obviously think of music in a very different way from you. The 'art' aspect of it does not really speak much to me. I prefer what I call the 'craft' aspect. Music as a craft, with a song being something that you invest time in, something you polish, something you add to. That doesn't mean I don't have lightnings-in-bottles that I like, songs that according to their makers, just happened. It's just that there's not that many of them and they're usually from artists that didn't really rely on that kind of writing technique much anyway.

Fair enough i suppose, horses for courses n all that :) I appreciate the craft aspect too but i don't think Zeppelin fit that bill, if you were saying The Beatles, now thats an example of craft and the idea of the songs "just happened". The production line aspect of craft and the ability to make it artistically satisfying as well as being well put together. Just because a thing is presented to you sloppily it doesn't mean that the way the component parts come together is somehow ill concieved. Play the Pistols songs on an accoustic and you'll see the craft to em. Nevermind the Bollocks is probably one of the most tightly constructed albums of pure pop music i've ever heard. The energy and content is whats so revolutionary about it, otherwise its pure pop music and thats not a criticism.

But i do see what you mean, its just pretty much a case of looking for different things in music and i can respect that.

Edited by sugaraylen
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They are already one of my favorite bands (definitely top 10) but I would love them even more if not for the voice Plant used on the earlier albums. I can't stand that whining voice he uses on blues songs like say You Shook Me. I can barely listen to the first album mostly because of that.

an example of craft and the idea of the songs "just happened".

I was actually contrasting 'craft' and 'just happened'.

Edit: So were you? You meant a band that could do both?

Edited by GivenToFly
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Guest Len B'stard
I was actually contrasting 'craft' and 'just happened'.

Edit: So were you? You meant a band that could do both?

Exactly...and a band that can do both i.e. present music that came together organically AND shows a mastery of the craft aspect, that to me is the measure of genius. A lot of people have it to and i think it comes through in the melodiousness of music. The Beatles, Bob Dylan a lot of Stones stuff is a great example of that.

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Guest Len B'stard

Y'know what the difference is though? John did his commercial to finance the recent PiL tour and impending album because he has no major label backing ;)

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Y'know what the difference is though? John did his commercial to finance the recent PiL tour and impending album because he has no major label backing ;)

I wasn't arguing anything, just thought it was mildly amusing. I don't really like Zeppelin that much.

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both were kinda sad to see. Luckily they were both long since gone from their groundbreaking bands...

Still bugs me RP uses Zep samples on that song. But the sampling itself was pretty prophetic of how music would go in the next decades...

Edited by moreblack
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Here is how I look at it:

Zeppelin has fantastic music. Period.

Great music, lots of emotion, great musicianship, great songwriting, etc.

song after song, album after album...

it's freaky, they had very few misses throughout their time together.

It could've been freaky if they didn't 'borrow' so much from other artists. As it is, still one of the best bands ever.

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Lydon also narrates TV shows and is a reality TV star. I think if someone like Tom Waits can get enough acting gigs to be able to supplement his income, that's fine, but in this day and age of "music is a soundtrack to my life", artists have to find all sorts of ways to make cash, and if they endorse a product they're using, I have no problem with it. There's a point guys like Pete Townshend and Bob Dylan have no nostalgia for their songs and decided to license them to commercials. McCartney didn't license Beatles songs, yet he felt it was okay to license Buddy Holly songs.

GNR picks up private gigs to supplement the income, and license songs out.

Biggest hypocrites are a-list American actors that go to Japan and do TV adverts. In a You Tube age, we get to see them anyway.

When I went to see Flaming Lips at a free show sponsored by Southern Comfort, they said that the only thing they didn't want was being told what to say or not to say from the stage, because they were playing "War Pigs" with a bunch of Bush and Iraq war footage. I think as long as I don't enter a venue feeling like I'm being assaulted by people trying to sell me shit, it's fine. Most venues are branded, not much can be done about it. Do artists "with integrity" just stop playing venues because some company is renting signage there? Neil Peart of Rush wrote a book about being on the road, and he kept referring to all these venues as "wireless phone arena" or "internet service provider amphitheater".

To me, if a band is doing a tour and being sponsored by a product, LOWER THE TICKET PRICE. They might as well go out wearing jackets that look like stickers on NASCAR.

Page and Plant chose to license their song to Cadillac, and if Cameron Crowe wants a Led Zep song, he usually gets it. I'm sure Dave Grohl or Jack White can just call up if they needed Zep songs or footage.

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