Domino Records v. Interscope Geffen A & M Records [Schnauss v. "Guns N' Roses"]

[axlr23]

I found this today,dont know if it has been posted or not but it involves Riad N' The Bedouins, here is the article and the legal doc are available from the link below!

This dispute is interesting because the musical material in question has no melody – i.e., the lynchpin for virtually every music copyright infringement claim. The two complaining numbers – collections of electronically produced sounds organized by Ulrich Schnauss – sound like the output of a jazzy white noise machine. The plaintiffs have claimed that the Geffen (ka-ching! la vache américaine) recording (i.e. “Guns N’Roses’”) made unauthorized use of samples of the plaintiff’s two numbers. If, in fact, the defendants used a snippet of Schnauss’s recordings of “blips, bloops and bleeps” (as his music was characterized by the Guardian, 6 Oct. ’09) should this be almost automatically deemed infringement as the Sixth Circuit court established in Bridgeport Music (a well-known sampling case from 2007) regardless of the minimal musical content involved?

Music seems to have relatively little to do with the commercial appeal of numbers like "Raid 'N the Bedouins". Rather, the twaddle of the “Axl” Rose song that alludes vaguely to war in the Middle East offers seductive aromas of anarchy and violence to be enjoyed by pimply boys from armchairs of Middle America. One can only infer from the many photos of Mr. Rose posted on the Web that his physiognomy is a significant element in marketing his act and, like contestants on "America's Top Model", he spends an extraordinary amount of time primping before mirrors, and rehearsing a repertory of poses, rather than on matters like the source of the electronic sounds that accompany the numbers he performs.

Here is a copy of the plaintiff's complaint (2 October 2009). It includes appendices of copies of copyright registrations filed on behalf of Schnauss's work, and the letter sent to Geffen by plaintiffs in February of 2009: Schnauss Complaint.pdf

pdf file of court documents

Edited October 17, 2011 by axlr23

[Cdlove]

You guys are missing the point. It's not that he didnt use the snippet, it's just that the snippet isn't substantial enough. It's like suing someone for the same lion noise that you recorded.

[Ali]

You guys are missing the point. It's not that he didnt use the snippet, it's just that the snippet isn't substantial enough. It's like suing someone for the same lion noise that you recorded.

I don't even think that is the whole point. The snippet in question used sounds, no melody whatsoever. Is it really copyrightable without a distinct melody or lyrics, or even a chord progression (not that you can copyright chord progressions)?

ali

[31illusions]

I say it is copyright infringement. The whole song is a copyrighted piece, not just the lyrics or guitar parts. plain and simple.

If someone copied Axl's song do you thing he would hesitate to sue?...I think not.

Edited October 18, 2011 by 31illusion

[Gagarin]

I don't know if the case law as it is allows that, but it should.

This is a clearance F-up, and I can't believe it hasn't been resolved. But it's probably in Geffen/Interscope/Univ/GE/Comcast/Whatever.

[ronartest2004]

Its just crazy, because with how hardcore guns/geffen are about their music being sampled you would've thought they would have said hell no to sampling anything without permission.

Edited October 18, 2011 by ronartest2004

[gnrfan2007]

I just wanted to forewarn all you musicians and djs are there ... I copyrighted the FART noise ... so if you use a FARTING sound, I will sue. Yes, even if you use your own FART noise, it doesn't matter! A FART is a FART regardless of who's ass it is coming out of!

Edited October 18, 2011 by gnrfan2007

[Apollo]

I say it is copyright infringement. The whole song is a copyrighted piece, not just the lyrics or guitar parts. plain and simple.

If someone copied Axl's song do you thing he would hesitate to sue?...I think not.

You are trying to use sarcasm to be funny, right?

[phaeryen]

I just wanted to forewarn all you musicians and djs are there ... I copyrighted the FART noise ... so if you use a FARTING sound, I will sue. Yes, even if you use your own FART noise, it doesn't matter! A FART is a FART regardless of who's ass it is coming out of!

it does matter.

oh and by the way,

you are very fucking unoriginal sampling your own fart.

From one of this years Computer Magazine's I can quote for you something Tim Exile said about his first steps in the music creating world:

"The first thing I did when I got my first sampler was to record a fart. That's what everyone does."

owned.

[appetite4illusions]

Rhiad is a pretty cool song and one of the much stronger rock-tracks on the album. A shame that this whole song is tied up by a forty second intro that was obviously stolen, but for what reasons? With all that money and creativity, to snag two random ambient tracks and run them together?

Regardless of the language of the statute, I think Schnauss is entitled to his money/credit, whatever...but the song is what it is on its own merit...why not play it without that intro?

Boggles the mind...Par for the course in GN'R land.

[31illusions]

I say it is copyright infringement. The whole song is a copyrighted piece, not just the lyrics or guitar parts. plain and simple.

If someone copied Axl's song do you thing he would hesitate to sue?...I think not.

You are trying to use sarcasm to be funny, right?

What are you talking about? How do you see sarcasm in that? It's just a statement. It is copyright infringement.

Have you not heard these songs and compared ? And yes Axl sues everyone. It's a fact, not sarcasm.

[gunnerpr]

For one second, imagine Brian "buckethead" Carroll entering the court without mask talking about chickens.

[bigcountry]

They are similar but not EXACT copies.

Yes insperation for the sound may have been taken from these songs but what band isn't inspired by a multitude of bands and sone similar but not Exactly the same????

To me that is what making music is about, Insperation, I am not right.

So I guess I could just make me some sounds and what ever I can think of and have a copywrite put on them and try to sue anyone for sounding close to what I have.

Anyone remember Vinalla Ice and I believe Queen was threating suing him over ICE ICE Baby, yes the sounds where very similar but there where differences. I don't remember the out come but I think it was settled before they sued. He was also sued for another song which went to #1 and had to pay $500,000 in rolaties. This was in a day when it was nothing for an album to go multi platium I think his went 7-8 times platium in the US alone.

By the way I HATE Vinalla ICE.

But Riad is far from a number one hit and CD sales where not that great but by todays standards done pretty good world wide. So 1 million is just too much for a song that was never released as a single and an ablum that had a luke warm receiption.

Edited October 18, 2011 by bigcountry

[Gagarin]

They are similar but not EXACT copies.

Yes insperation for the sound may have been taken from these songs but what band isn't inspired by a multitude of bands and sone similar but not Exactly the same????

To me that is what making music is about, Insperation, I am not right.

So I guess I could just make me some sounds and what ever I can think of and have a copywrite put on them and try to sue anyone for sounding close to what I have.

Anyone remember Vinalla Ice and I believe Queen was threating suing him over ICE ICE Baby, yes the sounds where very similar but there where differences. I don't remember the out come but I think it was settled before they sued. He was also sued for another song which went to #1 and had to pay $500,000 in rolaties. This was in a day when it was nothing for an album to go multi platium I think his went 7-8 times platium in the US alone.

By the way I HATE Vinalla ICE.

But Riad is far from a number one hit and CD sales where not that great but by todays standards done pretty good world wide. So 1 million is just too much for a song that was never released as a single and an ablum that had a luke warm receiption.

Fail.

[bigcountry]

They are similar but not EXACT copies.

Yes insperation for the sound may have been taken from these songs but what band isn't inspired by a multitude of bands and sone similar but not Exactly the same????

To me that is what making music is about, Insperation, I am not right.

So I guess I could just make me some sounds and what ever I can think of and have a copywrite put on them and try to sue anyone for sounding close to what I have.

Anyone remember Vinalla Ice and I believe Queen was threating suing him over ICE ICE Baby, yes the sounds where very similar but there where differences. I don't remember the out come but I think it was settled before they sued. He was also sued for another song which went to #1 and had to pay $500,000 in rolaties. This was in a day when it was nothing for an album to go multi platium I think his went 7-8 times platium in the US alone.

By the way I HATE Vinalla ICE.

But Riad is far from a number one hit and CD sales where not that great but by todays standards done pretty good world wide. So 1 million is just too much for a song that was never released as a single and an ablum that had a luke warm receiption.

Fail.

How is my post a fail???

I was pointing out that they where similar but not EXACTLY the same.

Then brought up a artist with a similar issue and what happened.

Compared to the late 80'-mid 90's it was like if an album went platinum one time it was a complete failure but by todays standard it is not looked at that in that way.

There was alot more money involved in sales department back then they only got 1/2 million dollars.

With CD that is not the case and 1 million is way to much.

If I was a signed artist with alot of time on my hands I could make all kinds of different music and copyright it and most likely give it away on my website and sue anyone that came close to my sounds. Thats just show how sue happy people are now a days.

If the artist wins which I feel they will the settlement should be much lower than a million dollars considering the sales number CD has.

[Gagarin]

The sound is THE SAME.

For fuzzy memories:

http://www.thatsongsoundslike.com/2009/10/07/guns-n-roses-vs-ulrich-schnauss/

Vanilla Ice was fortunate he was left with anything (actually, one multinational corporation suing another multinational corporation who sometimes do business together was NOT going to see this to a catastrophic ending). Under Pressure and Ice Ice Baby aren't just "similar", of course there's differences, but it was clearly either a sample, or they intentionally just used Under Pressure. That part of Under Pressure is a distinctive feature, the same is true of it's use on Ice Ice Baby. You know how you listen to the radio and you don't know which is which at first? Yeah. It's a little bit more than "similar".

This guy, apparently, did his work to craft that sound and sonic scape. He invented that sound, apparently. He didn't fart into a microphone.

GNR took it because they liked it.

Well, they need to pay.

How much GNR has sold or how popular the song is doesn't make a difference.

This should have been settled already.

If I was a signed artist with alot of time on my hands I could make all kinds of different music and copyright it and most likely give it away on my website and sue anyone that came close to my sounds. Thats just show how sue happy people are now a days.

It's the same freaking sound.

Since it was artificially created, it's very unlikely they just happened to remake it themselves accidentally. His music is creating sounds and sort of avante garde stuff...the kind of things Chinese expirments with, that's what his main deal is. Just because there's no traditional guitar music here doesn't mean it's exempt from copyright.

GNR had to go through the channels to get the movie clips and MLK quotes licensed and rights secured. It was important enough that they do that. Well, if they liked this sound so much, that they sampled it, they need to pay for it.

Or prove that they did pay for it, or thought they did, and it wasn't intentional (intent goes a long way) - but they still need to pay for it...hopefully out of court.

They certainly aren't going to get a chunk of CD's proceeds, but there's going to be a price paid.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Gagarin

[Yesterdays-Civil-War]

My head hurts...

[Eu4ic]

Of course they used it - it's almost like they wanted to get caught! Not only is there one, but there is two, AND they are played on top of each other. lol. Funny because it's such a pointless jackoff part of the album.

[GET OFF AXLS BACK]

Pay up,move on.

[YOUCOULDBEMINE.]

LOL getting mad because someone used some of your weird little sounds in a song.

I think that ''Schnauss'' dude or whatever he's called hoped for some fame with this.

[axlsfury]

My question is who is the GNR perp in all this? Mother Goose?

[Damn_Smooth]

The sound is THE SAME.

For fuzzy memories:

http://www.thatsongsoundslike.com/2009/10/07/guns-n-roses-vs-ulrich-schnauss/

Vanilla Ice was fortunate he was left with anything (actually, one multinational corporation suing another multinational corporation who sometimes do business together was NOT going to see this to a catastrophic ending). Under Pressure and Ice Ice Baby aren't just "similar", of course there's differences, but it was clearly either a sample, or they intentionally just used Under Pressure. That part of Under Pressure is a distinctive feature, the same is true of it's use on Ice Ice Baby. You know how you listen to the radio and you don't know which is which at first? Yeah. It's a little bit more than "similar".

This guy, apparently, did his work to craft that sound and sonic scape. He invented that sound, apparently. He didn't fart into a microphone.

GNR took it because they liked it.

Well, they need to pay.

How much GNR has sold or how popular the song is doesn't make a difference.

This should have been settled already.

If I was a signed artist with alot of time on my hands I could make all kinds of different music and copyright it and most likely give it away on my website and sue anyone that came close to my sounds. Thats just show how sue happy people are now a days.

It's the same freaking sound.

Since it was artificially created, it's very unlikely they just happened to remake it themselves accidentally. His music is creating sounds and sort of avante garde stuff...the kind of things Chinese expirments with, that's what his main deal is. Just because there's no traditional guitar music here doesn't mean it's exempt from copyright.

GNR had to go through the channels to get the movie clips and MLK quotes licensed and rights secured. It was important enough that they do that. Well, if they liked this sound so much, that they sampled it, they need to pay for it.

Or prove that they did pay for it, or thought they did, and it wasn't intentional (intent goes a long way) - but they still need to pay for it...hopefully out of court.

They certainly aren't going to get a chunk of CD's proceeds, but there's going to be a price paid.

Are those the only parts of Rhiad he's suing over? They should give him a small settlement and remove those parts. It's not like the song would be any worse without them.

[YOUCOULDBEMINE.]

LOL getting mad because someone used some of your weird little sounds in a song.

I think that ''Schnauss'' dude or whatever he's called hoped for some fame with this.

His "weird little sounds" ARE his songs. Some of you are so god damn thick, man. If they stole a guitar riff, he could sue. I'm sure that makes sense to you in your linear view of music. If they stole a bass riff, he could sue. How about a synthesizer piece? Yep. So this sound this guy created on his own... without conventional instruments where one could just happen across the same riff... is even more of a case imo because of just that. It's not like it's a simple guitar riff that over the years someone is bound to come up with it as well, but unrelated to the original piece, this is an original sound created. I bet GNR don't even know how he made it, pfff.

On another, worse note. It appears if Schnauss wins it appears Rhiad will have to be removed from CD... I thought it was just going to be for money.

EDIT: Schnauss isn't a complete unknown by the way guys, he has a fan base and the other forum I'm on in the MUSIC section there was a thread about him a couple months ago.

Boohoo, someone used my random sounds.

[sweetness]

It's no different than sampling without permission, nobody here really thinks that Dizzy or Pittman synthesized that on their own do they?

[dalsh327]

The sound is THE SAME.

For fuzzy memories:

http://www.thatsongsoundslike.com/2009/10/07/guns-n-roses-vs-ulrich-schnauss/

Vanilla Ice was fortunate he was left with anything (actually, one multinational corporation suing another multinational corporation who sometimes do business together was NOT going to see this to a catastrophic ending). Under Pressure and Ice Ice Baby aren't just "similar", of course there's differences, but it was clearly either a sample, or they intentionally just used Under Pressure. That part of Under Pressure is a distinctive feature, the same is true of it's use on Ice Ice Baby. You know how you listen to the radio and you don't know which is which at first? Yeah. It's a little bit more than "similar".

This guy, apparently, did his work to craft that sound and sonic scape. He invented that sound, apparently. He didn't fart into a microphone.

GNR took it because they liked it.

Well, they need to pay.

How much GNR has sold or how popular the song is doesn't make a difference.

This should have been settled already.

If I was a signed artist with alot of time on my hands I could make all kinds of different music and copyright it and most likely give it away on my website and sue anyone that came close to my sounds. Thats just show how sue happy people are now a days.

It's the same freaking sound.

Since it was artificially created, it's very unlikely they just happened to remake it themselves accidentally. His music is creating sounds and sort of avante garde stuff...the kind of things Chinese expirments with, that's what his main deal is. Just because there's no traditional guitar music here doesn't mean it's exempt from copyright.

GNR had to go through the channels to get the movie clips and MLK quotes licensed and rights secured. It was important enough that they do that. Well, if they liked this sound so much, that they sampled it, they need to pay for it.

Or prove that they did pay for it, or thought they did, and it wasn't intentional (intent goes a long way) - but they still need to pay for it...hopefully out of court.

They certainly aren't going to get a chunk of CD's proceeds, but there's going to be a price paid.

Are those the only parts of Rhiad he's suing over? They should give him a small settlement and remove those parts. It's not like the song would be any worse without them.

Guys like that aren't looking for big paydays (their lawyers might be though), they just want the credit and any royalties they would've received. I mean, how would anyone feel if you created something that made some money, but then someone famous takes it for their own use and makes money off of it? There's no debate on whether or not he should be compensated for a sample, any more than anyone who was credited on ChiDem should be. If he had sampled from Trent Reznor, who has deeper pockets, you know he would've been furious and had media attention to blast GNR in the press.

The dude who sued Jimmy Page for "Dazed and Confused" blew it off for 40 years, and then decided it was time to settle this in the courtroom. He just wants the credit, not the backpay, which would prob. be around 10 million when you consider radio play, live concerts, copies of Led Zep I, Song Remains the Same, Box Set, BBC Sessions. But he made enough in writing songs for other people not to care about the money.