Rose, Corgan: Same Dilema

[GnR Chris]

You are downplaying the others involvement in the songwriting process. Did Axl write the guitar riffs? No. Did Slash write lyrics? No. But you seem to make it out like Axl was total creative drive powering the band which is totally untrue.

No, I'm not. The problem is that many of you are very emotionally attached to the perceived value of your heroes and it causes you to over amplify anything you consider to be a slight.

My premise was simple. Axl and Izzy started the band. Axl and Izzy were the primary songwriters.

Both of those things are facts. Neither of those things minimize the contributions of Slash.

And yet, several of you chew on those sentences and then spit out your own premise, while attributing it to me. Why? So you can then pick apart something I never said, since what I actually did say is indisputable.

I find it funny that when I give proper credit to Axl and Izzy, those of you who have disagreed have each either singled out Axl or singled out Izzy, even though I was very clear that I was giving the credit to BOTH of them for starting the band and writing MOST of the songs.

Not all. Most.

Not sure why so many of you have a hard time reading and understanding basic sentences.

But Slash's contributions brought those songs to another level. The SCOM intro and solo elevated the song through the stratosphere. Estranged's leads blew everyone away. Don't Cry's solo was a harrowing answer to Axl's vocals. I truly believe that every member except maybe Adler/Matt/Dizzy bought in an equal share to most songs. It's not only a count of writing credits alone.

Don't even try to debate with him. He refuses to acknowledge this point and would rather stick to writing credits Axl got for LYRICS.

[DrBrownstone]

You are downplaying the others involvement in the songwriting process. Did Axl write the guitar riffs? No. Did Slash write lyrics? No. But you seem to make it out like Axl was total creative drive powering the band which is totally untrue.

No, I'm not. The problem is that many of you are very emotionally attached to the perceived value of your heroes and it causes you to over amplify anything you consider to be a slight.

My premise was simple. Axl and Izzy started the band. Axl and Izzy were the primary songwriters.

Both of those things are facts. Neither of those things minimize the contributions of Slash.

And yet, several of you chew on those sentences and then spit out your own premise, while attributing it to me. Why? So you can then pick apart something I never said, since what I actually did say is indisputable.

I find it funny that when I give proper credit to Axl and Izzy, those of you who have disagreed have each either singled out Axl or singled out Izzy, even though I was very clear that I was giving the credit to BOTH of them for starting the band and writing MOST of the songs.

Not all. Most.

Not sure why so many of you have a hard time reading and understanding basic sentences.

Surely by now you must be tired of constantly defending yourself to everyone on this forum while we're all wrong and you're always right. You're like a one man army fighting for his cause....except you really don't have a cause, and are just trying to stir shit up. If that's what gets you through the day, have at it I guess..

[SoulMonster]

So you're saying Axl and Izzy didn't start the band? You're saying they weren't the primary songwriters?

I don't think anyone disagrees with that, I think their point is that by merely looking on song credits you are not accurately looking at whose contributions made those songs great. Basically, you are discussing different things. Or rather, they are trying to discuss Slash's important contributions to iconic songs while you are trolling with your facts because you enjoy the effect it has on them. Not really entertaining to others...

[Young_Gun]

So you're saying Axl and Izzy didn't start the band? You're saying they weren't the primary songwriters?

I don't think anyone disagrees with that, I think their point is that by merely looking on song credits you are not accurately looking at whose contributions made those songs great. Basically, you are discussing different things. Or rather, they are trying to discuss Slash's important contributions to iconic songs while you are trolling with your facts because you enjoy the effect it has on them. Not really entertaining to others...

This.

[Nosaj Thing]

So you're saying Axl and Izzy didn't start the band? You're saying they weren't the primary songwriters?

I don't think anyone disagrees with that, I think their point is that by merely looking on song credits you are not accurately looking at whose contributions made those songs great. Basically, you are discussing different things. Or rather, they are trying to discuss Slash's important contributions to iconic songs while you are trolling with your facts because you enjoy the effect it has on them. Not really entertaining to others...

This.

[DaneisKing1389]

Dane is King disagreed with it. So did GNR Chris. Do you guys actually read the thread, or do you just like to disagree with whatever I say regardless of whether I'm clearly correct?

Discuss Slash's important contributions all you want. Who is saying he didn't make important contributions?

You guys are arguing against things that nobody ever said.

Very very odd behavior.

I agreed with the fact that Izzy wrote the base layer of music and Axl wrote the lyrics. That's where you're drawing the line. That's it. That's the song. In reality, it's not. There's more than a base layer to a song. You're generalizing too much. That's all we're saying. SoulMonster had it right.

[WhazUp]

So you're saying Axl and Izzy didn't start the band? You're saying they weren't the primary songwriters?

I don't think anyone disagrees with that, I think their point is that by merely looking on song credits you are not accurately looking at whose contributions made those songs great. Basically, you are discussing different things. Or rather, they are trying to discuss Slash's important contributions to iconic songs while you are trolling with your facts because you enjoy the effect it has on them. Not really entertaining to others...

Spot on!

[Young_Gun]

Lars Ulrich gets a writing credit on EVERY single Metallica song and he just plays drums, does not write one lyric, doesn't play a guitar note... Writing credit does not mean everything... Not saying Axl's contributions are the same and Lar's, but songwriting credits are not definitive to me.

[auad]

Hey Guys! What about the subject of the topic?

despite differences, there are a lot of similarities between rose and corgan.

Edited March 29, 2012 by auad

[Old School]

Young Gun -

It's not a perfect comparison, but it's a better comparison than most. Axl and Billy are two guys trying to push forward with new music and new members and both are dealing with a lot of negative shit because of it. There are enough similarities for it to be interesting to think about IMO. There are obviously differences as well.

Logical, practical reply. But Axl isn't trying to push forward with new music. If taking 12+ years to put out a record, and no real sign he will ever produce another, is trying to push forward with new music then I guess I'm a moron.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Old School

[GnR Chris]

So you're saying Axl and Izzy didn't start the band? You're saying they weren't the primary songwriters?

I don't think anyone disagrees with that, I think their point is that by merely looking on song credits you are not accurately looking at whose contributions made those songs great. Basically, you are discussing different things. Or rather, they are trying to discuss Slash's important contributions to iconic songs while you are trolling with your facts because you enjoy the effect it has on them. Not really entertaining to others...

This.

[AIC04]

As a diehard pumpkins fan i find the original post a bit off. Billy wrote and played everything on the albums except drums which was played by chamberlin except on adore and there new stuff. In a nutshell the pumpkins were allways Billys band.

Gnr not so much.

Both axl n billy are musical genious and had huge fam in the 90s but other then that the band aspects not so much.

[auad]

As a diehard pumpkins fan i find the original post a bit off. Billy wrote and played everything on the albums except drums which was played by chamberlin except on adore and there new stuff. In a nutshell the pumpkins were allways Billys band.

Gnr not so much.

Both axl n billy are musical genious and had huge fam in the 90s but other then that the band aspects not so much.

the question of this topic: two icons moving ahead with their projects, with totally different lineups of their groups. this is the similarity between them, despite their differences.

[dalsh327]

Lars Ulrich gets a writing credit on EVERY single Metallica song and he just plays drums, does not write one lyric, doesn't play a guitar note... Writing credit does not mean everything... Not saying Axl's contributions are the same and Lar's, but songwriting credits are not definitive to me.

James is the primary songwriter, but when they're in the studio, Lars pretty much co-produces the albums and works on lyric changes. Should he get songwriting credit for his 1 or 2 percent? Prob. not. James and Lars created Metallica, so if Lars insisted he'd get songwriting credit from the day they worked together, that's no different than Lennon getting credit on songs Paul wrote 100 percent of, and vice versa.

Owning your publishing gives you money and some control of your music. GNR has limits to what they can do with the music, because the publishing's owned by the band. But if Axl were to put up his publishing as collateral (and that plays a part in signing a band to a new label) Universal would have him over a barrel.

[dalsh327]

GNR Chris -

Your words were: "Slash and Duff were just as much a part of the writing process."

It's simply not true. The facts don't support it. Axl and Izzy were the primary songwriters with Slash being an important songwriter as well and then Duff to a much lesser extent.

Songwriting is one of MANY important components to being successful. However, why do you feel the need to lie about Slash and Duff's contributions in that particular aspect? I don't understand why you would argue against absolute fact.

Old School -

I don't think it makes you a moron, but I do think you're being very unfair if you're going to take the position that Axl has not tried to push forward with new music. The length of time it took really supports my premise because it shows how much effort Axl was willing to put into new music. Even if he chooses to never release more of it, we know for a fact that he spent a significant portion of his life working on it. How could you use that as evidence to argue that he didn't try? If anything, the more logical argument would be that he tried too hard.

I think people have to understand Axl faced an uncertain future with GNR in the mid 90s. I don't think he really knew what shape the songs would take, but I think with someone whose own tastes in music are more theatrical than Slash's, he didn't want to bash out a rock album. The thing to have done to keep the band together, would've been to record some of those songs instead of having a standoff, but I think Axl would've still brought another lead guitarist in.

Right or wrong, it wasn't where his head was at. Axl prob. would have been fine with Duff doing his own thing, but Velvet Revolver had to have pissed him off and turned into a bigger rivalry than it should have been. But to me, VR brought GNR some of the modern rock fans that slagged GNR off in the early 90s.

[AIC04]

As a diehard pumpkins fan i find the original post a bit off. Billy wrote and played everything on the albums except drums which was played by chamberlin except on adore and there new stuff. In a nutshell the pumpkins were allways Billys band.

Gnr not so much.

Both axl n billy are musical genious and had huge fam in the 90s but other then that the band aspects not so much.

the question of this topic: two icons moving ahead with their projects, with totally different lineups of their groups. this is the similarity between them, despite their differences.

For me it still isnt the same. The pumpkins in the studio was billy and Jimmy(mostly). Unless you are talking live only. Then yes I will agree on that.. Having seen the pumpkins live they still put on a great show. I saw them in 08 at a sold out red rocks, so then they still sold well live, same a year later at a smaller venue however..One of the best live acts, im a hard core fan so i dont give a fuck if they play the hits or not.

Yes they are the same in the fact that they are moving a head and playing live with differant band members but other then that, not so sure... Billy still writes a ton and releases it mostly free now on his site, maybe axl ought to try that who knows..

[auad]

As a diehard pumpkins fan i find the original post a bit off. Billy wrote and played everything on the albums except drums which was played by chamberlin except on adore and there new stuff. In a nutshell the pumpkins were allways Billys band.

Gnr not so much.

Both axl n billy are musical genious and had huge fam in the 90s but other then that the band aspects not so much.

the question of this topic: two icons moving ahead with their projects, with totally different lineups of their groups. this is the similarity between them, despite their differences.

For me it still isnt the same. The pumpkins in the studio was billy and Jimmy(mostly). Unless you are talking live only. Then yes I will agree on that.. Having seen the pumpkins live they still put on a great show. I saw them in 08 at a sold out red rocks, so then they still sold well live, same a year later at a smaller venue however..One of the best live acts, im a hard core fan so i dont give a fuck if they play the hits or not.

Yes they are the same in the fact that they are moving a head and playing live with differant band members but other then that, not so sure... Billy still writes a ton and releases it mostly free now on his site, maybe axl ought to try that who knows..

i told that there are similarity between then, not that they are the same...

[auad]

[sailaway]

There is a section to advertise/discuss other bands.

And please correct the "Dilema" to Dilemma.

Edited May 2, 2012 by sailaway

[The_Universal_Sigh]

One similarity perhaps not mentioned: Axl and Bilyl both have not looked half as happy since they came back and tried to turn their solo projects into their old bands.... the backlash will always be too great to overcome, which is upsetting as a fan of both.

[Chris 55]

I don't find it to be an exact comparison, but there are certainly many similarities.

Here are some of the differences though. While Corgan was the primary writing force for SP, it was a combo of Axl and Izzy that were the primary writing force for GNR. Some would say that gives Corgan more of a right to continue the band as the sole member of the classic lineup.

On the flipside however, SP broke up. They officially ended and everyone went their separate ways. Then later on, Billy decided to restart the band with one additional member of the classic lineup.

He actually tried to reunite ALL of the SP members and even took out an ad in a paper (I think it was the New York Times) promising fans that all the original members would be back-didn't work.

[Birk]

I seen Billy Corgans dad play a show a few years ago at a bar near my house, he hates Billy Corgan and said that when Corgan became big he was an asshole to him, i assume Corgans dad taught him how to play, who knows

WOW guess i was wrong

http://hipstersunited.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/corgans-father-reflects-ive-blown-it-a-few-times/

[themadcaplaughs]

I seen Billy Corgans dad play a show a few years ago at a bar near my house, he hates Billy Corgan and said that when Corgan became big he was an asshole to him, i assume Corgans dad taught him how to play, who knows

WOW guess i was wrong

Corgan's father was also physically abusive to him as well as a drug addict. I'm sure they have had their differences in the past, but they seem to be cool now. He played with Billy at a Smashing Pumpkins show I saw in Florida in 2008.

[auad]

[dalsh327]

I seen Billy Corgans dad play a show a few years ago at a bar near my house, he hates Billy Corgan and said that when Corgan became big he was an asshole to him, i assume Corgans dad taught him how to play, who knows

WOW guess i was wrong

http://hipstersunited.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/corgans-father-reflects-ive-blown-it-a-few-times/

When he got big, you know his dad did it to get money out of him, but when you know your dad is a heroin addict, you know where that money's going. I'm sure it was tough love more than being a dick about it.