Use Your Illusions Production/Mixing Question

[Vincent Vega]

The UYIs are my favorite GNR albums but I do have a question: Why do the mix/production on the guitars seem dull (in comparison to AFD)? I can't explain it, but the guitars on AFD are mixed really raw, sharp and clear like a knife, you can hear all the parts clearly...Whereas on the UYIs they seem more 'polished', muddier, not as clear, like, the parts seem kinda mushed together on some songs...Why do you think GN'R chose to do it that way? And what sort of production techniques would achieve that sort of duller, more polished guitar sound?

[iftheworld]

The UYIs are my favorite GNR albums but I do have a question: Why do the mix/production on the guitars seem dull (in comparison to AFD)? I can't explain it, but the guitars on AFD are mixed really raw, sharp and clear like a knife, you can hear all the parts clearly...Whereas on the UYIs they seem more 'polished', muddier, not as clear, like, the parts seem kinda mushed together on some songs...Why do you think GN'R chose to do it that way? And what sort of production techniques would achieve that sort of duller, more polished guitar sound?

They were going for a more jagged bluesy sound.

[rainman_1985]

I always thought Spaghetti Incident sounded a lot better than Illusions. The guitars were, like you say, jagged.The sound in general was crisper, more live sounding. I've wondered why it sounded so much better, like "DId recording technology\quality go up in the 2 and 1\2 years between releases?

Edited May 21, 2012 by rainman_1985

[californiaz06]

From my understanding Slash could not re-create the appetite sound exactly when they did the UYI recordings. The amp he used was rented from some place and that specific amp was modded. Slash wanted to buy it but the store wouldn't sell it. At one point he lied and said he lost the amp just so he could use it for gigs extensively. It was a really sought after amp as well. The story is something like that. I don't think the appetite sound would really fit some of the UYI songs and I'm not suggesting Slash wanted to have the appetite sound on the UYI Albums but I know he wasn't able to recreate it exactly. Now the appetite sound can be recreated. I think it's a modded Marshall jubilee or something he used. It took a while for people to track it down. I think his guitar tech Adam spoke about it I don't know. Take this with a grain of salt I read the story years ago.

[chevelle]

From my understanding Slash could not re-create the appetite sound exactly when they did the UYI recordings. The amp he used was rented from some place and that specific amp was modded. Slash wanted to buy it but the store wouldn't sell it. At one point he lied and said he lost the amp just so he could use it for gigs extensively. It was a really sought after amp as well. The story is something like that. I don't think the appetite sound would really fit some of the UYI songs and I'm not suggesting Slash wanted to have the appetite sound on the UYI Albums but I know he wasn't able to recreate it exactly. Now the appetite sound can be recreated. I think it's a modded Marshall jubilee or something he used. It took a while for people to track it down. I think his guitar tech Adam spoke about it I don't know. Take this with a grain of salt I read the story years ago.

I remember reading that story, too.

I think part of it was probably just how they decided to EQ/layer/etc the tracks. They had just become the biggest rock band in the world, so they wanted to sound like it too. Big, polished guitars, reverby, huge drums...that kind of thing.

[Smokin' Cigarettes]

To sum it all up real quick..... AFD was one of those "lightning in the bottle" type records. That's part of what made it the the classic album it is. It was the equipment, producer, studio, and the right combination of guys. There's sloppiness, and there's an edge. All of those combined made for a perfect storm.

You can't go back and do it again and you can't re-create it. They had even changed so much musically from AFD to UYI where the music was going in a completely different direction as well. They were already in full fledge transition between rock club band to stadium band at that point.

[rhb]

The UYIs are my favorite GNR albums but I do have a question: Why do the mix/production on the guitars seem dull (in comparison to AFD)? I can't explain it, but the guitars on AFD are mixed really raw, sharp and clear like a knife, you can hear all the parts clearly...Whereas on the UYIs they seem more 'polished', muddier, not as clear, like, the parts seem kinda mushed together on some songs...Why do you think GN'R chose to do it that way? And what sort of production techniques would achieve that sort of duller, more polished guitar sound?

As far as I know, Slash wrote on his book that he could never recreate the AFD guitar sound. It was not a Gibson Les Paul (is was a replica made by someone in LA) and it was not a Marshall amp, and it was very raw, with very little of bass sound. A little of chorus effect, sometimes flanger and wha-wha, and reverb. I play guitar myself, and the near sound I can get is using almost no effects with a Gibson and a Marshall amp. Even in his new albums (live or studio) it doesn't sound as good asit was. I think it was pure inspiration and the capacity of the producer to not change the raw sound Slash had on early live GN'R shows.

The Illusions are overproduced in my opinion. Even Axl voice is changed by that time studio techniques.

[oxocubeingravy]

I think part of it was probably just how they decided to EQ/layer/etc the tracks. They had just become the biggest rock band in the world, so they wanted to sound like it too. Big, polished guitars, reverby, huge drums...that kind of thing.

I think you're right - UYI just has a totally different style of production going for a different, bigger, more stadium-rock sound. Guitars especially had to be EQ'd differently to make room for the additional keys of Dizzy Reed & other additional instruments such as strings and what not. Otherwise the sound frequencies would have overlapped too much, making things unclear. This takes away the sharpness of the guitars which were present on AFD.

[JVesper]

The funny thing is, guitars don't sound good on either AFD or UYI's.

[Vincent Vega]

The funny thing is, guitars don't sound good on either AFD or UYI's.

What do you mean? Why don't they sound good?

I think part of it was probably just how they decided to EQ/layer/etc the tracks. They had just become the biggest rock band in the world, so they wanted to sound like it too. Big, polished guitars, reverby, huge drums...that kind of thing.

I think you're right - UYI just has a totally different style of production going for a different, bigger, more stadium-rock sound. Guitars especially had to be EQ'd differently to make room for the additional keys of Dizzy Reed & other additional instruments such as strings and what not. Otherwise the sound frequencies would have overlapped too much, making things unclear. This takes away the sharpness of the guitars which were present on AFD.

Here's the problem though--

Look at Live Era, which was massively tinkered with in the studio. You have percussion, keyboards, etc even on the rock tracks yet the guitars are more raw. Or CD. There's tons of layers of stuff, keyboards, piano, strings, on CD yet the guitars have a rawer edge to them. Or look at other bands, where you have two guitars, bass, vox, drums, keyboards and/or synth...It doesn't have the same dullness with the guitars that only the UYIs have. Even on TSI, which has piano and keyboards on tracks, and Sympathy for the Devil which once again has keyboards and synth, the guitars have a rawer sound.

[GeetarMikey]

I just can't be doing with all the plinky plonky bar-style piano on most of the UYI's. '14 Years', for example, has just relentless bar-room piano all the way through it, it totally ruins the song. SOME is ok I find, but less is more when it comes to piano in a hard rock band and I find it drowns out Izzy's guitar most of the time.

[dario27]

The funny thing is, guitars don't sound good on either AFD or UYI's.

oh God

[TeeJay410]

This might be heresy, but I don't think Slash's tone on AFD was all that special outside of SCOM.

Edited May 21, 2012 by tuyfuvk17

[Voodoochild]

The guitars on AFD are panned in a way that Slash's rhythm was really placed at the right channel, while Izzy was way far on the left.

In Use Your Illusions, the mix brought Slash kinda more to the center-right, while Izzy's guitar is buried in a very low volume in the left. IMHO, that's why you think the guitar tracks on UYI are mudded in comparison to AFD.

Look at Live Era, which was massively tinkered with in the studio. You have percussion, keyboards, etc even on the rock tracks yet the guitars are more raw. Or CD. There's tons of layers of stuff, keyboards, piano, strings, on CD yet the guitars have a rawer edge to them. Or look at other bands, where you have two guitars, bass, vox, drums, keyboards and/or synth...It doesn't have the same dullness with the guitars that only the UYIs have. Even on TSI, which has piano and keyboards on tracks, and Sympathy for the Devil which once again has keyboards and synth, the guitars have a rawer sound.

I hate Live Era's guitars, sounds like shit to me and I still can't understand why did they left out the second guitar on Rocket Queen, leaving only Slash and a cheesy keyboard. Even if it was Gilby (who simplified the hell out of the excellent rhythm created by Izzy), it would still be better than nothing.

But I don't like Chinese Democracy's mix too. There are tons of layers who should be more proeminent, like Ron's rhythm in Scraped or Robin's rhythm and lead on Riad. Also, I don't get why they didn't left the stereo places for each member, like it was in the demos (Bucket and Paul or Richard in the left, Robin in the right channel). Each song has its own configuration, wich didn't help to set some of the "who plays what" in the record.

[californiaz06]

The UYIs are my favorite GNR albums but I do have a question: Why do the mix/production on the guitars seem dull (in comparison to AFD)? I can't explain it, but the guitars on AFD are mixed really raw, sharp and clear like a knife, you can hear all the parts clearly...Whereas on the UYIs they seem more 'polished', muddier, not as clear, like, the parts seem kinda mushed together on some songs...Why do you think GN'R chose to do it that way? And what sort of production techniques would achieve that sort of duller, more polished guitar sound?

As far as I know, Slash wrote on his book that he could never recreate the AFD guitar sound. It was not a Gibson Les Paul (is was a replica made by someone in LA) and it was not a Marshall amp, and it was very raw, with very little of bass sound. A little of chorus effect, sometimes flanger and wha-wha, and reverb. I play guitar myself, and the near sound I can get is using almost no effects with a Gibson and a Marshall amp. Even in his new albums (live or studio) it doesn't sound as good asit was. I think it was pure inspiration and the capacity of the producer to not change the raw sound Slash had on early live GN'R shows.

The Illusions are overproduced in my opinion. Even Axl voice is changed by that time studio techniques.

Yes he used a 100W Marshall Super Tremolo (Model 1959T) for appetite but it was modded by a company named SIR. There are two versions #39 and #36. I think they were both used for appetite.

Edited May 21, 2012 by californiaz06

[cc4rhu]

I've always wondered why we know so much about the recording of the AFD album but little about the UYI recordings. Pretty much every book describes the exact same things on Appetite. I'd love to read about the recordings of UYI and TSI and and how they fit into the massive world tour.