the new "war"?

[stumbleine]

dude,it was never expected(underlined)to sell 3 mill.

I just say that's a fair benchmark for a real success.

Foo Fighters sold 260 000 in their first week of wasting light.Foo fighters is Nirvana light and not real rock n roll,but thats another story.

this genre we're in can still sell records,exile remastered hit nr 2 on billboard album chart.

[classicrawker]

There is no such thing as bad publicity........IMHO ChiDem under achieved here because it was mediocre not because of lack of promotion

We'll have to have a difference of opinion then. I think CD did great considering what was going against it.

World wide it did well but in the U.S. it sold about half as was expected and less than 1 million copies so that is why I say it under achieved but it certainly was not a flop as some like to claim.......we will have disagree on the quality of the music which is subjective and a matter of taste.......

[axl8302]

dude,it was never expected(underlined)to sell 3 mill.

I just say that's a fair benchmark for a real success.

Foo Fighters sold 260 000 in their first week of wasting light.Foo fighters is Nirvana light and not real rock n roll,but thats another story.

this genre we're in can still sell records,exile remastered hit nr 2 on billboard album chart.

So what? CD sold more than that in it's first week in the US and out-sold that album worldwide.

[Apollo]

CD had tons of promotion. And was reviewed by every entertainment paper, magazine and website known to man.

Axl and the band didn't do all thru could to promote the album and singles. Like playing the latest single at awards shows or late night talk shows.

Selling ay best buy instead of Walmart hurt sales from casual fans. There isn't a best buy within 500 miles of where I live. There are three Walmarts.

Any rock album that sells 3 million copies or more shouldn't be considered a failure.

[Chris 55]

dude,it was never expected(underlined)to sell 3 mill.

I just say that's a fair benchmark for a real success.

Foo Fighters sold 260 000 in their first week of wasting light.Foo fighters is Nirvana light and not real rock n roll,but thats another story.

this genre we're in can still sell records,exile remastered hit nr 2 on billboard album chart.

So what? CD sold more than that in it's first week in the US and out-sold that album worldwide.

CD took 15 years and cost millions. That's what.

[SoulMonster]

CD took 15 years and cost millions. That's what.

Did it really take 15 years, or is that just the time that went between releases? I hope you see the difference.

[Bobbo]

Slash did manage to do one thing Axl hasn't, release an album that was relevant and had an impact. For better or for worse, it doesn't really matter because THAT'S what's subjective, but it's an indisputable fact Contraband was the most relevant post 96 gnr album. Way more than CD was.

2 things.

1: Slash needed Duff, Matt and the fanbase of Stone Temple Pilots to accomplish anything in America.

2: America does not equal the world.

And Axl had plenty of help during Chinese Democracy, including $13 million and the luxury of owning the GNR name. Oh and over a decade worth of buzz and mystique. Way more coverage and anticipation than Contraband. Now; I realize that most of the general population didn't follow the whole process of getting to the album, but anybody that gave a remote shit about Axl or followed GNR at all knew that this was the first GNR album without Slash and co, and it took a lot of time and money to produce. When release was officially announced and set it stone the media went abuzz. It was talked about by every respectable musical publication under the sun, and was reviewed by them as well. It was talked about on entertainment shows, it had commercials, Time Magazine and other articles, newspaper articles, and one of the most popular soft drink companies giving away a free can of their product to everybody in the country JUST because the album was finally release. It WAS promoted, and pretty well, by outside sources. Axl did promote, through online websites and interviews a few weeks after release. Sure, he could have done more on his part, but I HIGHLY doubt it would've been a big game changer in the grand scheme of things. People were gonna either treat it like Van Hagar or Van Halen III when it came out regardless. They were either gonna take to the music, or they weren't. That's why I think it's a little more fair to compare the two than you're bringing on.

Chinese had an impressive debut, and I wasn't shocked by that at all. I always thought it would regardless of how the music was. I think it could have done even better based on curiosity alone had they not streamed the entire finished album on Myspace beforehand. But even then, I think the end result would've been more or less the same. Stronger debut, and then fall off. And that's really what happened. A couple months after release, CD fell off the face of the Earth, both in the media and on the radio, and in the end all it really did was go over most casual fans' heads and split the hard cores into two. Axl could never play a song off CD again, and most people wouldn't bat an eye. The sad truth.

Meanwhile, I CONSTANTLY still hear Slither and FTP on rock fm radio on a regular basis, eight years later. And that's my point. Contraband had significance, impact, and positive fan feedback. It connected with an audience and got steady interest in return. Axl didn't get that feat with Chinese, and has never achieved any of the above since Slash left the band. Maybe Axl made more with the luxury of the name from the revenue aspect, I honestly don't know; but Contraband was the most relevant post '96 GNR album, and that's just a fact. And ask yourself, what's more respectable...making more money using (for the most part) music and a legacy built by an entirely different band? Or releasing a relevant and overall successful album that had a notable impact post heyday despite all odds? I think most people would go with the latter, but each to their own...

I didn't see the VH1 special on CD like I did the forming of VR. I didn't see an Axl or band member interviews every time I went online after the launch of CD. Most of the press that I saw for CD was negative because of the time, money and lack of Slash. Until you can provide a link disproving any one of those things, Contraband was way more positively hyped than CD.

I also don't understand this whole name thing people get hung up on all the time. The names Axl and Slash were just as famous as the name Guns N' Roses. It's a strawman argument at best.

I didn't see any popular soft drinks offering to give a free can to everybody in America just because slash and co were releasing an album. Call me crazy, but I think that had more people tuning in than a vh1 special.

During the years, yeah, CD got criticism, and arguably rightfully so with all the time and money put into it. But I think that was also a positive as well. It gained a lot of mystique and hype that way. When everything was set in stone, and the best buy deal was made public, that mystique really helped. What in the Fuck exactly took over a decade and over 13 million to accomplish? Surely it had to be magnificent, right? I also think the press also gave the album a fair shake during that time. And that's what was important. What happened during crunch time.

Axl DID go on the forums, and did an interview shortly after release that were heavily publicized in the press. I agree he could have done more on his part, but do you honestly believe it would have been a huge game changer in the grand scheme of things? As Axl himself has implied in the chats as to why he doesnt do too many interviews, it wouldn' really matter. It was either gonna sink or swim on its own merits. If the public had dug what they heard, it wouldn't have mattered if slash and co weren't there. It would've been van Hagar all over again.

The Dr Pepper deal was only made because they thought that there was no chance of the album being released. Much like every aspect of the album launch, it was botched too.

There could have been a video available and Axl could have toured at the time of release. The Best Buy deal was good because it paid for the album. Best Buy doesn't know how to promote an album though, and their limited amount of store locations didn't help matters. It could have sold a lot more if it would have been more widely available.

His forum visits were ridiculed to hell and back in the mainstream media and the same can be said about his interview. They were both negative and didn't do many favors for CD.

Everyone involved with CD could have done things better, but they didn't, and we have what we have. That's not to say that CD wasn't successful though, because it was. It did very well for a rock record in 2008.

Even if the Dr. Pepper deal was made because they thought the album wouldn't come out, it's irrelevant because the deal was still made, and gave CD a nice extra boost. Why is the reason it was made important? Do you really even know that to be fact anyways? The end result wasn't ideal, but again, it gave some spotlight to the album itself. It was up to the music to fill the appeal and do the rest.

I think Best Buy did a fine job on their end promoting the album. They had commercials, they had promotion at the stores (at least mine did). What more did you want them to do on their end even had Axl done more from his end to promote the record? I agree with you about going with Best Buy and it's limited locations, but it's hard for me to have sympathy for Axl there. He chose it. And there's always itunes. I do think that if they had never put the whole record on Myspace beforehand, and had done the exclusive deal at Walmart or something initial sales would've been bigger, but I think the end result would've been the same. Nice start, and then loss of interest.

I also agree about the ridicule towards what he said in his interviews and the forum visits, but it would've probably been the same song and dance had he done it with Rolling Stone anyways. It was what it was.

Look at the end of the day, honestly, what post 96 "gnr" album overall had the most impact and success? Contraband earned a grammy, two hit singles, sold over 4 million worldwide, hit number one on the charts, and had impact. It connected with an audience. CD had a great start, and fell off just a couple months later. Even had Axl toured in 08, and I mean, shit even now, you can take all the CD songs off the setlist and most people wouldn't bat an eye. They're aware of what they are by now, they just don't care for the most part. How much impact did that album really have towards fans? It flew over most peoples heads, and divided the hardcores into two. That's really it in a nutshell. When was the last time you turned on the radio past the beginning of '09 and heard a CD song? I heard FTP on my way home from work tonight. Eight years after release. That's more than just a "right place at the right time" kinda ordeal, that's impact. And that's something Slash did without Axl that Axl couldn't do without Slash, despite more time, a huge budget, and the luxury of a name with a big legacy already attached to it.

Slash and co. accomplished a lot more with Contraband in terms of releasing an album people liked and appreciated than Axl did with Chinese Democracy; that's fact.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Bobbo

[Damn_Smooth]

Even if the Dr. Pepper deal was made because they thought the album wouldn't come out, it's irrelevant because the deal was still made, and gave CD a nice extra boost. Why is the reason it was made important? Do you really even know that to be fact anyways? The end result wasn't ideal, but again, it gave some spotlight to the album itself. It was up to the music to fill the appeal and do the rest.

I think Best Buy did a fine job on their end promoting the album. They had commercials, they had promotion at the stores (at least mine did). What more did you want them to do on their end even had Axl done more from his end to promote the record? I agree with you about going with Best Buy and it's limited locations, but it's hard for me to have sympathy for Axl there. He chose it. And there's always itunes. I do think that if they had never put the whole record on Myspace beforehand, and had done the exclusive deal at Walmart or something initial sales would've been bigger, but I think the end result would've been the same. Nice start, and then loss of interest.

I also agree about the ridicule towards what he said in his interviews and the forum visits, but it would've probably been the same song and dance had he done it with Rolling Stone anyways. It was what it was.

Look at the end of the day, honestly, what post 96 "gnr" album overall had the most impact and success? Contraband earned a grammy, two hit singles, sold over 4 million worldwide, hit number one on the charts, and had impact. It connected with an audience. CD had a great start, and fell off just a couple months later. Even had Axl toured in 08, and I mean, shit even now, you can take all the CD songs off the setlist and most people wouldn't bat an eye. They're aware of what they are by now, they just don't care for the most part. How much impact did that album really have towards fans? It flew over most peoples heads, and divided the hardcores into two. That's really it in a nutshell. When was the last time you turned on the radio past the beginning of '09 and heard a CD song? I heard FTP on my way home from work tonight. Eight years after release. That's more than just a "right place at the right time" kinda ordeal, that's impact. And that's something Slash did without Axl that Axl couldn't do without Slash, despite more time, a huge budget, and the luxury of a name with a big legacy already attached to it.

Slash and co. accomplished a lot more with Contraband in terms of releasing an album people liked and appreciated than Axl did with Chinese Democracy; that's fact.

First off, I never asked you to feel sorry for Axl anywhere. Don't put words in my mouth.

Now that that's out of the way, the Dr. Pepper deal was nothing more than a blurb in any major publication. How you think that anyone considered it more than anything but a joke is far beyond me. It truly is a non issue.

Let's take a look at the Best Buy deal and compare it to Wal-Mart's deal for Black Ice. Did you see hanging signs that advertised CD in your local Best Buy? How about t-shirts available there? Any promotion at the front of the store over a month before the album released? I didn't see any of that. Maybe it's different where you live.

Now let's talk about the reality of VR's first album.

The record company was completely behind it. Fact.

The band was on the cover of every major music publication at that time, giving interviews. Fact.

It tried to combine the fanbase of 2 major bands and failed to meet the success of either one of them. Fact.

Slash successfully painted himself as the major creative force behind GN'R even though his contributions were only greater than Duff's, Gilby's and whatever drummer you chose. Fact.

It came out at a time where piracy was a lot lower than when CD released. Fact.

Their second album proves that people like me can't be fooled twice. Fact.

From what anybody knows, CD was close to Contraband in sales. It did pretty good against what people consider the "real" GN'R combined with the STP fanbase.

Now you're starting to get me to believe that GN'R was a joke after Nirvana came around. That's the only way that you can explain VR's sales. They really should have lit the world on fire considering their roots. What happened?

[classicrawker]

World wide it did well but in the U.S. it sold about half as was expected

As was expected by who?

Best Buy

[Izzyslash]

There are no war. It's just Slash and Axl not speaking to each other. I don't really think Izzy cares that much, he would probably have been at the HOF if it fitted his schedule.

Funny how the HOF performance sounded more GNR than Axl's band ever did or will do. But, easy math, 3/5 of the original would make a better situation than 1/5 or 2/5 of the original. Izzy is on terms with all of them according to happenings over the last 10 years. I doubt he sees Axl and his group as GNR, he just think it's fun to be able to go up an play a few of his own songs every once in a while. He probably gets paid good money for it as well, as Axl sees that bringing him up there is great PR, and gets him further patience by a lot of newer fans for not doing anything other than tour old material, and shitting on a greats bands legacy.

[stumbleine]

I agree,the HOF performance did sound more like GNR than Axl's band.

the spirit was there.

made me miss the real band even more.

[axl8302]

dude,it was never expected(underlined)to sell 3 mill.

I just say that's a fair benchmark for a real success.

Foo Fighters sold 260 000 in their first week of wasting light.Foo fighters is Nirvana light and not real rock n roll,but thats another story.

this genre we're in can still sell records,exile remastered hit nr 2 on billboard album chart.

So what? CD sold more than that in it's first week in the US and out-sold that album worldwide.

CD took 15 years and cost millions. That's what.

They weren't working on it for 15 years. The gap between releases is irrelevant.

[classicrawker]

World wide it did well but in the U.S. it sold about half as was expected

As was expected by who?

Best Buy

so shouldn't you say that in your post? because nobody in the industry expected it to sell that much. best buy was hoodwinked.

Why should I have stated that in my post?

Evidently the label and music press thought it underperformed as well based on all you read on te internet....so where did you read the "nobody in industry" expected it to selll that much? I have not read anything stating this?

[SONOFABITCH]

Th HOF performance with 3/5 of the original ban was one of the greatest GNR related moments in the last 15+ years.

[vaida]

There is no *new war* as you put it. All involved have solo careers these days.

That's probably the best way of looking it it. All former members have / have had bands where their name, made by the success of Guns N'Roses, leads their band. This also aplies to Axl Rose, the only difference being, he choose to use his former bandmates band name

No members, including Axl Rose, have managed to equal past success. They've had their day.

Edited June 9, 2012 by vaida

[classicrawker]

There is no *new war* as you put it. All involved have solo careers these days.

That's probably the best way of looking it it. All former members have of have had bands where their name, made by the success of Guns N'Roses, leads their band. This also aplies to Axl Rose, the only difference being, he choose to use his former bandmates band name

No members, including Axl Rose, have managed to equal past success. They've had their day.

Great post and so true...they are all basically cult bands now IMHO..the only difference for Axl is he is milking the Guns name

And be prepared to be attacked now by the Axl fans about how he started the band and it has always been his band...blah, blah, blah.........

[Rustycage]

Evidently the label and music press thought it underperformed as well based on all you read on te internet....so where did you read the "nobody in industry" expected it to selll that much? I have not read anything stating this?

I work in the industry

This guy is hilarious. Like a chameleon. Quick, tell us what it's like being Jesus. You are Jesus, aren't you? No wait, you were only there and one of the disciples.

On the internet, people can be everything.

[Bobbo]

Even if the Dr. Pepper deal was made because they thought the album wouldn't come out, it's irrelevant because the deal was still made, and gave CD a nice extra boost. Why is the reason it was made important? Do you really even know that to be fact anyways? The end result wasn't ideal, but again, it gave some spotlight to the album itself. It was up to the music to fill the appeal and do the rest.

I think Best Buy did a fine job on their end promoting the album. They had commercials, they had promotion at the stores (at least mine did). What more did you want them to do on their end even had Axl done more from his end to promote the record? I agree with you about going with Best Buy and it's limited locations, but it's hard for me to have sympathy for Axl there. He chose it. And there's always itunes. I do think that if they had never put the whole record on Myspace beforehand, and had done the exclusive deal at Walmart or something initial sales would've been bigger, but I think the end result would've been the same. Nice start, and then loss of interest.

I also agree about the ridicule towards what he said in his interviews and the forum visits, but it would've probably been the same song and dance had he done it with Rolling Stone anyways. It was what it was.

Look at the end of the day, honestly, what post 96 "gnr" album overall had the most impact and success? Contraband earned a grammy, two hit singles, sold over 4 million worldwide, hit number one on the charts, and had impact. It connected with an audience. CD had a great start, and fell off just a couple months later. Even had Axl toured in 08, and I mean, shit even now, you can take all the CD songs off the setlist and most people wouldn't bat an eye. They're aware of what they are by now, they just don't care for the most part. How much impact did that album really have towards fans? It flew over most peoples heads, and divided the hardcores into two. That's really it in a nutshell. When was the last time you turned on the radio past the beginning of '09 and heard a CD song? I heard FTP on my way home from work tonight. Eight years after release. That's more than just a "right place at the right time" kinda ordeal, that's impact. And that's something Slash did without Axl that Axl couldn't do without Slash, despite more time, a huge budget, and the luxury of a name with a big legacy already attached to it.

Slash and co. accomplished a lot more with Contraband in terms of releasing an album people liked and appreciated than Axl did with Chinese Democracy; that's fact.

First off, I never asked you to feel sorry for Axl anywhere. Don't put words in my mouth.

Now that that's out of the way, the Dr. Pepper deal was nothing more than a blurb in any major publication. How you think that anyone considered it more than anything but a joke is far beyond me. It truly is a non issue.

Let's take a look at the Best Buy deal and compare it to Wal-Mart's deal for Black Ice. Did you see hanging signs that advertised CD in your local Best Buy? How about t-shirts available there? Any promotion at the front of the store over a month before the album released? I didn't see any of that. Maybe it's different where you live.

Now let's talk about the reality of VR's first album.

The record company was completely behind it. Fact.

The band was on the cover of every major music publication at that time, giving interviews. Fact.

It tried to combine the fanbase of 2 major bands and failed to meet the success of either one of them. Fact.

Slash successfully painted himself as the major creative force behind GN'R even though his contributions were only greater than Duff's, Gilby's and whatever drummer you chose. Fact.

It came out at a time where piracy was a lot lower than when CD released. Fact.

Their second album proves that people like me can't be fooled twice. Fact.

From what anybody knows, CD was close to Contraband in sales. It did pretty good against what people consider the "real" GN'R combined with the STP fanbase.

Now you're starting to get me to believe that GN'R was a joke after Nirvana came around. That's the only way that you can explain VR's sales. They really should have lit the world on fire considering their roots. What happened?

First off, I never said you asked me to have sympathy for Axl, so follow your own advice. I was simply addressing the fact that I don't as he and co chose the route to take when it came to the exclusive deal.

I also can't comprehend why you're downplaying the Dr. Pepper promotion. You're trying to pass your perspective on it as fact, it's not. One of the biggest soft drink companies offered a free can of their product to everybody in America if Axl released the album in 2008. When the Best Buy deal was set in stone, Dr. P stayed true to their word. I agree the end result was flawed, but the buzz did help CD during that time. It was up to the album itself to pick up the slack from there.

I live in Buffalo and I specifically remember tons of promotion from Best Buy at the time of CDs release. Banners on the side of the building saying "CD available now" Posters on the window claiming "The most anticipated album...ever". A bunch of displays with CD. What more did you want them to do on their end without Axl's cooperation?

As for the points about VR. I'm not arguing most of your points, but to pretend the label wasn't supporting Axl was asinine. 13 millions dollars, they did what they could without his cooperation, Axl was seemingly the only one not supporting Axl . Again, do you really think if Axl would've said what he said on the internet to Rolling Stone with his face on the cover would had been a real game changer? People were either gonna take to the music or they weren't.

Again, what's with the "Slash painted himself as a major creative force" crap, he was A MAJOR force in the creative aspect. His guitar parts that he wrote and contributed to were arguably just as integral to the songs as Axl's lyrics were. People miss Slash for a reason. And it's hard to argue that point when "GNR" hasn't done anything really relevant or that's had an impact since he's been gone.

Libertad was a different animal than Contraband, and a less interesting one. But you can't place the failure on the notion that "VR was a right place at a right time ordeal". They didn't set the world on fire, but they didn't crash and burn either. Contraband was a success with two singles that were big successes. They had impact, were relevant and connected with an audience. If that wasn't true, we wouldn't still be hearing two of their songs on the radio eight years later, and they would've been dropped off the face of the Earth after the second month like CD was for Axl. And it's a fact Axl hasn't reached that level of success without Slash yet. The success of releasing something that had universal appeal.

I do like your concept of "the second album proves you can't fool people like me twice", I just think you're applying it to the wrong "team". You do realize the majority of the public passed on CD; so do you really think now they want more of the same vain, or even another "GNR" album without Slash and co? If Axl ever does get around to releasing another album in the foreseeable future, or ever, I'll be shocked if it sells a million worldwide. Utterly shocked.

Then again, I'm a firm believer there will never be another official Guns N Roses album again. But if it does happen, it'll be interesting to see if your little theory holds true...

Edited June 9, 2012 by Bobbo

[classicrawker]

Evidently the label and music press thought it underperformed as well based on all you read on te internet....so where did you read the "nobody in industry" expected it to selll that much? I have not read anything stating this?

Please provide a link where the label expressed that Chinese sold half of what they expected in the US.

I did not read that nobody in the industry expected it to sell that much. I work in the industry and I'm telling you that nobody expected it to sell 1.6 million physical copies in the US, especially if only available at Best Buy.

You show me your proof I will waste my time digging mine up...since I know you have no proof ,other than your supposed insider information, I know I will not have to waste my time....

[classicrawker]

classic rawker -

i stated that nobody i knew in the industry expected chinese to sell 1.6 million. seeing as how i was the first one to report about the best buy deal, the details of the deal, the amount they were paying, how many copies they were paying for, how long the exclusivity period was, what the release date was, etc etc etc, that should be proof that i must have been in contact with people in the industry about the deal and can share my personal experience of what others were expecting.

you've claimed that based on what you've READ ONLINE, that the album underperformed comapred to the label's expectations. all i'm asking is to read what you have read. i have wasted a LOT of time digging up facts and figures in the past when you've asked and the polite thing to do would be to show me what you've read so i can see it for myself. i can tell you that nobody i knew in UMG expected best buy to sell anywhere near 1.6 million copies at full price. they were all snickering and very excited to have the whole mess off their hands.

Support your claim with proof or it is nothing but your opinion...you have no proof so you deflect playing games....put up or STFU ....

[classicrawker]

classic rawker -

it is impossible for someone to have this much trouble understanding the difference between fact and opinion unless they're either a cupcake or have some sort of learning disability. if it's a cupcake, kudos man. you got me.

Calling someone a cupcake...LOL, very ironic coming from you mate...show us your proof or it is just more of your bullshit......

[YOUCOULDBEMINE.]

What amazes me the most is that MSL's posts are sometimes done with capitals at the start of sentences, and sometimes without.

Not bitching or anything, just find it a bit weird.

[Rustycage]

Classic Rawker -

You say it's "more of my bullshit" as if I have this long history of making false claims. On the contrary, I have a long history of delivering accurate info. YOU are the one talking about the label's supposed expectations, which you claim you read online, and yet, you refuse to allow us to read it. Very strange. I on the other hand am refusing to post private correspondence, which would be against forum rules anyway.

UcudBmine -

If I'm making a serious well thought out reply, I usually type like this. If I'm making a quick or casual reply, I often type the other way.

What does this have to do with the topic?

Anyways, if there was a war, I'm betting on the 11 foot tall karate blonde.

[Damn_Smooth]

Even if the Dr. Pepper deal was made because they thought the album wouldn't come out, it's irrelevant because the deal was still made, and gave CD a nice extra boost. Why is the reason it was made important? Do you really even know that to be fact anyways? The end result wasn't ideal, but again, it gave some spotlight to the album itself. It was up to the music to fill the appeal and do the rest.

I think Best Buy did a fine job on their end promoting the album. They had commercials, they had promotion at the stores (at least mine did). What more did you want them to do on their end even had Axl done more from his end to promote the record? I agree with you about going with Best Buy and it's limited locations, but it's hard for me to have sympathy for Axl there. He chose it. And there's always itunes. I do think that if they had never put the whole record on Myspace beforehand, and had done the exclusive deal at Walmart or something initial sales would've been bigger, but I think the end result would've been the same. Nice start, and then loss of interest.

I also agree about the ridicule towards what he said in his interviews and the forum visits, but it would've probably been the same song and dance had he done it with Rolling Stone anyways. It was what it was.

Look at the end of the day, honestly, what post 96 "gnr" album overall had the most impact and success? Contraband earned a grammy, two hit singles, sold over 4 million worldwide, hit number one on the charts, and had impact. It connected with an audience. CD had a great start, and fell off just a couple months later. Even had Axl toured in 08, and I mean, shit even now, you can take all the CD songs off the setlist and most people wouldn't bat an eye. They're aware of what they are by now, they just don't care for the most part. How much impact did that album really have towards fans? It flew over most peoples heads, and divided the hardcores into two. That's really it in a nutshell. When was the last time you turned on the radio past the beginning of '09 and heard a CD song? I heard FTP on my way home from work tonight. Eight years after release. That's more than just a "right place at the right time" kinda ordeal, that's impact. And that's something Slash did without Axl that Axl couldn't do without Slash, despite more time, a huge budget, and the luxury of a name with a big legacy already attached to it.

Slash and co. accomplished a lot more with Contraband in terms of releasing an album people liked and appreciated than Axl did with Chinese Democracy; that's fact.

First off, I never asked you to feel sorry for Axl anywhere. Don't put words in my mouth.

Now that that's out of the way, the Dr. Pepper deal was nothing more than a blurb in any major publication. How you think that anyone considered it more than anything but a joke is far beyond me. It truly is a non issue.

Let's take a look at the Best Buy deal and compare it to Wal-Mart's deal for Black Ice. Did you see hanging signs that advertised CD in your local Best Buy? How about t-shirts available there? Any promotion at the front of the store over a month before the album released? I didn't see any of that. Maybe it's different where you live.

Now let's talk about the reality of VR's first album.

The record company was completely behind it. Fact.

The band was on the cover of every major music publication at that time, giving interviews. Fact.

It tried to combine the fanbase of 2 major bands and failed to meet the success of either one of them. Fact.

Slash successfully painted himself as the major creative force behind GN'R even though his contributions were only greater than Duff's, Gilby's and whatever drummer you chose. Fact.

It came out at a time where piracy was a lot lower than when CD released. Fact.

Their second album proves that people like me can't be fooled twice. Fact.

From what anybody knows, CD was close to Contraband in sales. It did pretty good against what people consider the "real" GN'R combined with the STP fanbase.

Now you're starting to get me to believe that GN'R was a joke after Nirvana came around. That's the only way that you can explain VR's sales. They really should have lit the world on fire considering their roots. What happened?

First off, I never said you asked me to have sympathy for Axl, so follow your own advice. I was simply addressing the fact that I don't as he and co chose the route to take when it came to the exclusive deal.

I also can't comprehend why you're downplaying the Dr. Pepper promotion. You're trying to pass your perspective on it as fact, it's not. One of the biggest soft drink companies offered a free can of their product to everybody in America if Axl released the album in 2008. When the Best Buy deal was set in stone, Dr. P stayed true to their word. I agree the end result was flawed, but the buzz did help CD during that time. It was up to the album itself to pick up the slack from there.

I live in Buffalo and I specifically remember tons of promotion from Best Buy at the time of CDs release. Banners on the side of the building saying "CD available now" Posters on the window claiming "The most anticipated album...ever". A bunch of displays with CD. What more did you want them to do on their end without Axl's cooperation?

As for the points about VR. I'm not arguing most of your points, but to pretend the label wasn't supporting Axl was asinine. 13 millions dollars, they did what they could without his cooperation, Axl was seemingly the only one not supporting Axl . Again, do you really think if Axl would've said what he said on the internet to Rolling Stone with his face on the cover would had been a real game changer? People were either gonna take to the music or they weren't.

Again, what's with the "Slash painted himself as a major creative force" crap, he was A MAJOR force in the creative aspect. His guitar parts that he wrote and contributed to were arguably just as integral to the songs as Axl's lyrics were. People miss Slash for a reason. And it's hard to argue that point when "GNR" hasn't done anything really relevant or that's had an impact since he's been gone.

Libertad was a different animal than Contraband, and a less interesting one. But you can't place the failure on the notion that "VR was a right place at a right time ordeal". They didn't set the world on fire, but they didn't crash and burn either. Contraband was a success with two singles that were big successes. They had impact, were relevant and connected with an audience. If that wasn't true, we wouldn't still be hearing two of their songs on the radio eight years later, and they would've been dropped off the face of the Earth after the second month like CD was for Axl. And it's a fact Axl hasn't reached that level of success without Slash yet. The success of releasing something that had universal appeal.

I do like your concept of "the second album proves you can't fool people like me twice", I just think you're applying it to the wrong "team". You do realize the majority of the public passed on CD; so do you really think now they want more of the same vain, or even another "GNR" album without Slash and co? If Axl ever does get around to releasing another album in the foreseeable future, or ever, I'll be shocked if it sells a million worldwide. Utterly shocked.

Then again, I'm a firm believer there will never be another official Guns N Roses album again. But if it does happen, it'll be interesting to see if your little theory holds true...

Damn Sir, that was way too long for me to care to pay attention to. Once I realized that the first sentence would only make sense to someone that has never been exposed to the English language in their life, I decided not to join you in a nonsensical debate.

I know that you have a massive hard-on for Slash, mostly everyone here does. It doesn't matter. I wish that I cared enough to see if you had a point, but I don't.

Whatever excuses you came up with for the success of VR's first album, and the total failure of their second one, does not mean shit to me.

We should probably wait to continue this conversation when CD2 proves to be a bigger letdown than VR's second. It might happen.

Edit: let's do this without essays that would bore an English professor. I truly think that might be possible.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Damn_Smooth

[Johnny Drama]

On topic ahem bottom line for me its like this: if Izzy plays with Axl at a GN'R concert, Slash and co aren't gonna care. If Izzy had played with the others at the HOF, and considering Izzy is like the in-between guy, as opposed to Slash, Duff, Steven and Matt who seem pretty tight nowadays, Axl may have taken that personally.