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Was having a guitarist as iconic as Slash a double-edged sword for GnR?


Madridista

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more importantly, since this thread is about slash. it should have been posted in the pre 94 forum instead of the post 01 forum.

Wrong. The forum is in restructure, and if you would go and look at the pre-'94 forum and enter its one (locked) thread, you would see that Zint has asked us to temporarily refrain from posting in that section until the restructure is complete.

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more importantly, since this thread is about slash. it should have been posted in the pre 94 forum instead of the post 01 forum.

Wrong. The forum is in restructure, and if you would go and look at the pre-'94 forum and enter its one (locked) thread, you would see that Zint has asked us to temporarily refrain from posting in that section until the restructure is complete.

Whats your excuse for the other 10000000000000 posts posted in the wrong section in the past?

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Come off it, buddy. I don't give a flying fuck about what thread is posted where; it's really not a big problem in my life. I was only stating that since the Classic Gn'R forum is closed now, that all Gn'R talk would naturally redirect here. I'm not a spokesman for all fans of Classic Gn'R, and I'm not making excuses for the horrible sin of posting in the wrong section, so why don't you just have a Coke and a smile and relax?

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If you look at the history of most famous bands out there, chances are you will find one or two major lineup changes somewhere along the line. I will give you two examples, Dave Mustaine replacing Marty Friedman in Megadeth after making their best albums (Rust in Peace and Countdown to Extinction) and Adrian Smith leaving Iron Maiden in the early 1990's, after making their best albums ever in the 1980's.

Depending on who you ask, those bands were somewhat succesful at finding a replacement, though it did take their fanbase a long time to accept the changes. And in the case of Iron Maiden, Adrian Smith rejoined Maiden in the late 90s and he's still there.

I don't want this thread to turn into an anti DJ Ashba thread, or into a we all hate Slash thread. That is not my intention. I just want to know what you guys think about the following question.

Was having an iconic guitarist like Slash, a guitarist whose image is well known around the world, even by those who are not into rock/metal scene a double-edge sword for GnR? You know, Marty Friedman was a great musician, but image wise he was not that impressive. I mean, he did not stand out. Slash on the other hand, with that iconic hat, the hair, his guitar, the pose... I think it all created an iconic image that got imprinted on everyone's mind, at least the general public's. And it's not just that, it was his sound. You may hate the old lineup, which I will never understand because they created the songs and albums that made GnR who they are, but anyway... His solos in classics like SCOM or Estranged or November Rain and his riffs on songs like Mr. Brownstone have Slash written all over them. They're examples of the sound we (most of us at least) grew up loving.

Did all that make it even arder for Axl to find a replacement that would be readily accepted by everyone or most of GnR's fanbase? What if GnR had had a guitarist whose image and sound were not so recognizable? Would that have made it easier to find a replacement? You know, just a good musician, but someone without such a strong image and such a personal style in his guitar playing.

I remember talking to some die hard Iron Maiden fans back in 1994, when I was starting to get into Maiden and had already been a GnR fan for quite a few years. We were talking about who our favorite guitarists were and of course I said Slash and they said his sound was, quote "dirty" "not clean sounding" like Dave Murray's. I remember saying "yeah, maybe. But his sound fits GnR just fine".

I am sorry if I'm rambling, but just wanted to know what you guys think.

:thumbsup:

Well, I notice that every article I read about GNR has some Slash mention in it. Blabbermouth is especially good at doing this. Also, it doesn't help the current members of GNR when they are touring and they show old pictures of the original band and use that to promote who is touring now.

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Come off it, buddy. I don't give a flying fuck about what thread is posted where; it's really not a big problem in my life. I was only stating that since the Classic Gn'R forum is closed now, that all Gn'R talk would naturally redirect here. I'm not a spokesman for all fans of Classic Gn'R, and I'm not making excuses for the horrible sin of posting in the wrong section, so why don't you just have a Coke and a smile and relax?

Only if I can have rum in my coke dry.gif

It's just annoying because sections are creatd for a reason. If I want to read about Gilby or Duff I would expect to find this information in the former member section.

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Please, don't turn this into I HATE SLASH thread. Is that too difficult? :question:

Well Im not going to let it turn into a piss on CD and Axl thread either...see it goes both ways.

Who's pissing on Axl and CD? Jesus Christ... Are you in love with Axl?

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A GUITARIST'S IMAGE AND SOUND BEING DIFFICULT TO REPLACE !!! :rolleyes:

in megadeth, do you think that friedman was well replaced?

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Lolcano, you've reached a new low. Now John Mayer is better than Slash??? LOL :crazy:

Watch the video i mentioned then come back and tell me im wrong

Didn't watch video........... you're wrong.

Watch the video before disagreeing

Please, don't turn this into I HATE SLASH thread. Is that too difficult? :question:

Well Im not going to let it turn into a piss on CD and Axl thread either...see it goes both ways.

Who's pissing on Axl and CD? Jesus Christ... Are you in love with Axl?

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A GUITARIST'S IMAGE AND SOUND BEING DIFFICULT TO REPLACE !!! :rolleyes:

in megadeth, do you think that friedman was well replaced?

Friedman was easily replaced. Chris Broderick is AMAZING. He's a beast on the ax and plays Friedman's parts better than Freidman can play them lol

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Lolcano, you've reached a new low. Now John Mayer is better than Slash??? LOL :crazy:

Watch the video i mentioned then come back and tell me im wrong

Didn't watch video........... you're wrong.

Watch the video before disagreeing

Please, don't turn this into I HATE SLASH thread. Is that too difficult? :question:

Well Im not going to let it turn into a piss on CD and Axl thread either...see it goes both ways.

Who's pissing on Axl and CD? Jesus Christ... Are you in love with Axl?

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A GUITARIST'S IMAGE AND SOUND BEING DIFFICULT TO REPLACE !!! :rolleyes:

in megadeth, do you think that friedman was well replaced?

Friedman was easily replaced. Chris Broderick is AMAZING. He's a beast on the ax and plays Friedman's parts better than Freidman can play them lol

I've watched the video and I don't see where Slash has "no idea"... Slash plays great and then John Mayer plays great. Are you saying that John Mayer is a better guitarist then Slash, irrespective of this video?

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Lolcano, you've reached a new low. Now John Mayer is better than Slash??? LOL :crazy:

Watch the video i mentioned then come back and tell me im wrong

Didn't watch video........... you're wrong.

Watch the video before disagreeing

Please, don't turn this into I HATE SLASH thread. Is that too difficult? :question:

Well Im not going to let it turn into a piss on CD and Axl thread either...see it goes both ways.

Who's pissing on Axl and CD? Jesus Christ... Are you in love with Axl?

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A GUITARIST'S IMAGE AND SOUND BEING DIFFICULT TO REPLACE !!! :rolleyes:

in megadeth, do you think that friedman was well replaced?

Friedman was easily replaced. Chris Broderick is AMAZING. He's a beast on the ax and plays Friedman's parts better than Freidman can play them lol

I've watched the video and I don't see where Slash has "no idea"... Slash plays great and then John Mayer plays great. Are you saying that John Mayer is a better guitarist then Slash, irrespective of this video?

I'm saying Slash was owned by Mayer. Look at ZZ top's reaction....it's not rocket science.

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Lolcano, you've reached a new low. Now John Mayer is better than Slash??? LOL :crazy:

Watch the video i mentioned then come back and tell me im wrong

Didn't watch video........... you're wrong.

Watch the video before disagreeing

Please, don't turn this into I HATE SLASH thread. Is that too difficult? :question:

Well Im not going to let it turn into a piss on CD and Axl thread either...see it goes both ways.

Who's pissing on Axl and CD? Jesus Christ... Are you in love with Axl?

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A GUITARIST'S IMAGE AND SOUND BEING DIFFICULT TO REPLACE !!! :rolleyes:

in megadeth, do you think that friedman was well replaced?

Friedman was easily replaced. Chris Broderick is AMAZING. He's a beast on the ax and plays Friedman's parts better than Freidman can play them lol

I've watched the video and I don't see where Slash has "no idea"... Slash plays great and then John Mayer plays great. Are you saying that John Mayer is a better guitarist then Slash, irrespective of this video?

I'm saying Slash was owned by Mayer. Look at ZZ top's reaction....it's not rocket science.

Lolcano, ZZ were giving the boy props for mixing it up with a legend and encouraging him. They know who the icon is on that stage. Slash has more class than to blow away some kid. Such hate for the man, it's just ridiculous.

Edited by Peter Shneck
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Lolcano, ZZ were giving the boy props for mixing it up with a legend and encouraging him. They know who the icon is on that stage. Slash has more class than to blow away some kid on a strat. Such hate for the man, it's just ridiculous.

:rofl-lol: :rofl-lol: :rofl-lol:

Are you saying Slash played like crap not to "blow away" Mayer? Oh my... of all the shit i've heard from the bitter ex-fans this tops it all..

:rofl-lol: :rofl-lol: :rofl-lol:

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Have I missed something? Is DJ Ashba an iconic guitarist now? How long was I asleep?

You haven't missed a thing. He Isn't and never will be and I'm not saying this because I have anything personal against the guy, because I don't know him, but after watching him live, he Isn't anything special.

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Slash became iconic because of his look

Agree 100%

He was a good guitar player but he basically did what was already done. He can never be a Clapton, Jeff Beck or an SRV who can play brilliantly by themselves. Slash needs to play off other guitarists.

That shit always makes me cringe. Why the fuck do some people think that Slash had his own original sound, image and everything else? For fuck's sake, even his image was stolen from famous acts that were around decades before him, and I'm not even gonna mention his Page/Perry wannabe playing. He brought that sound "back" to mainstream when people like him were trying to be the next Eddie Van Halen, sure, but nothing was new at all. Sorry, the thread already got derailed, but I had to comment on this.

Regarding the thread, may be... but people tend to get attached to the past anyway no matter who's or who was in the band. You had a clear example of how that happens in the GNR world when most of its fanbase bashed Finck and Bucket to death when they were around, now they're godlikes. You forgot to mention that Bruce left Maiden as well though.

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Slash became iconic because of his look

Agree 100%

He was a good guitar player but he basically did what was already done. He can never be a Clapton, Jeff Beck or an SRV who can play brilliantly by themselves. Slash needs to play off other guitarists.

That shit always makes me cringe. Why the fuck do some people think that Slash had his own original sound, image and everything else? For fuck's sake, even his image was stolen from famous acts that were around decades before him, and I'm not even gonna mention his Page/Perry wannabe playing. He brought that sound "back" to mainstream when people like him were trying to be the next Eddie Van Halen, sure, but nothing was new at all. Sorry, the thread already got derailed, but I had to comment on this.

Regarding the thread, may be... but people tend to get attached to the past anyway no matter who's or who was in the band. You had a clear example of how that happens in the GNR world when most of its fanbase bashed Finck and Bucket to death when they were around, now they're godlikes. You forgot to mention that Bruce left Maiden as well though.

Slash never claimed to be original but then again neither were are Clapton, Beck, SRV etc... or any of the guitar heroes we all admire......they were all deriviative of the old black blues players they stole their licks from....even Hendrix was deriviative and he admited it.................

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Slash never claimed to be original but then again neither were are Clapton, Beck, SRV etc... or any of the guitar heroes we all admire......they were all deriviative of the old black blues players they stole their licks from....even Hendrix was deriviative and he admited it.................

Oh, so you think those guys weren't original at all, not even Hendrix? I have no further comment on this subject, nothing else to add to this after what your said, sorry. And I never said Slash claimed to be original, I said the gunners that try to put him on the same page as EVH or Hendrix.

Lolcano, ZZ were giving the boy props for mixing it up with a legend and encouraging him. They know who the icon is on that stage. Slash has more class than to blow away some kid on a strat. Such hate for the man, it's just ridiculous.

Are you saying Slash played like crap not to "blow away" Mayer? Oh my... of all the shit i've heard from the bitter ex-fans this tops it all..

Yes, he said that. He also would say that Slash had more class than to blow away some kid on a Gibson if he had to comment on this vid...

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i think axl was happy to have an iconic guitarist, so long as the iconic guitarist was happy to put up with all of axl's bullshit.

but now that axl's washed up and fat and can't sing like he used to, there's no way an iconic guitarist is going to be willing to put up with his shit. hell, even third rate studio musicians like robin finck can't stomach him any more.

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I'm saying Slash was owned by Mayer. Look at ZZ top's reaction....it's not rocket science.

I watched the video and really don't understand what you're talking about. They're both good players and both did a good job interpreting La Grange. Of course you're not going to like Slash's playing because you don't like Slash (and I surmise this is purely based on Axl's own reflections on his former band mate). That's fine in a sense, but to say that one person is better than the other and treat it as fact is ignoring the subjective nature of music and art. The fact that you feel Mayer performed better than Slash on one guitar solo and thus this means Mayer is a much better guitar player says little about their actual playing ability. I suppose that because Michael Phelps lost one race last week in his Olympic qualifier to his teammate that makes him an inferior swimmer. Your logic doesn't add up Volcano (but then again, it rarely does). Apparently every thread for you has to turn into a thread as to why Slash sucks. I serious don't understand your motivations for this but whatever floats your boat. You may feel like that Slash is an embarrassment on guitar, but just remember who wrote the iconic solos that you cheer on when DJ, Bumble or Fortus play them live. Those guy wouldn't have the jobs they now have if it weren't for the man in the top hat. I'm not a John Mayer fan but I can appreciate the fact that he can play; I just think he writes shit songs. Let me give you an example of how to discuss something in a thread that relates to Axl and Slash that doesn't disparage either:

As for the topic at hand, yes, for Axl it certainly was a double-edge sword having someone so iconic move on from the band. I look at someone like Ozzy who had to replace Randy Rhodes with Jake E. Lee and then Zakk Wylde. No one had too much of an issue with this (especially with replacing Rhodes who died) simply because the Ozzy brand was obviously synonymous with Ozzy. The fruitful beginnings and rise to domination of GNR was associated visually by Axl and Slash. Had Axl moved on from Guns N' Roses his eventual lead guitarist would not have received such a spiteful comparison with the image people have of GNR. Very few people have held much contempt for Slash's lead singers over the years because they weren't Axl simply because he wasn't attempting to change, revise or modify people's perceptions of what GNR is or was. As soon as anyone hears the intro to Sweet Child O' Mine or the outro guitar solo in November Rain they will immediately associate visually that sound to Slash. That's not an association that will easily or ever be changed unless Axl was able to stick with one guitar player and produce meaningful and numerous songs/albums. Buckethead obviously has/had a distinct sound a visual representation. Had they been able to work together for a five to ten year period I'm sure some if not most would have moved on from the associations they have of GNR and Slash. Returning to my Ozzy comparison, if you look at Black Sabbath after Ozzy's departure, the fact that they were able to produce relevant and noteworthy music with Ronnie James Dio speaks to how replacing a band member can be done if that's the route one wants to take. I suppose the same could be said with Van Halen and Sammy Hagar. Fans will come around if you give them a reason to. Apparently the public feels like Axl hasn't given enough to knock their old associations of GNR and Slash.

Remember though, like myself, GNR is a band synonymous with their youth. Youth, and its nostalgic influence, is a powerful force. Slash is always going to be part of my association with GNR as it was his playing, along with Axl's voice and piano playing, that had such a profound effect on my musical identity when I was young. I think for a lot of newer fans who weren't into GNR when they were younger (or weren't old enough to know of or appreciation GNR in its classic formation) have an easier time associating GNR without Slash's iconic look and sound. It's a contextual issue that I think is lost on most people. So I understand why people like Volcano and others who weren't big on GNR's formative years disparage the classic lineup like they do, but they ultimately fail to understand why others like myself substantiate guys like Slash, Izzy and Duff on a much higher level than they do.

Some bands, when drastic change is forced upon them, decide to end it simply because they feel like what they lost was too instrumental to continue without it. Look at Zeppelin, without Bonham's drums the band felt it just wouldn't be the same and decided to end it. Axl obviously felt differently with respect to GNR and Slash's departure. It's a tall order to fill on his part and some respect is deserved in attempting something so ambitious and what many would consider a fool's errand. Like I mentioned earlier, had Axl been able to hold on to Buckethead and produced a meaningful body of work I think he might have been able to achieve what he envisioned when he decided to regroup back in 1996 and 1997 with Slash and Duff's departure. Since that didn't happen and the man is now past the half-century mark, it doesn't seem like he'll ever escape Slash's shadow in the public's eye.

Cheers,

Andrew

Edited by downzy
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Yes, there's no need for an iconic guitarist, he woudn't be as good as a truly awesome guitarist and musician anyway.

And I think Slash was also happy to have an iconic frontman, so long as the iconic frontman was happy to put up with all of Slash's bullshit. See, it goes both ways, HRS.

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I'm saying Slash was owned by Mayer. Look at ZZ top's reaction....it's not rocket science.

I watched the video and really don't understand what you're talking about. They're both good players and both did a good job interpreting La Grange. Of course you're not going to like Slash's playing because you don't like Slash (and I surmise this is purely based on Axl's own reflections on his former band mate). That's fine in a sense, but to say that one person is better than the other and treat it as fact is ignoring the subjective nature of music and art. The fact that you feel Mayer performed better than Slash on one guitar solo and thus this means Mayer is a much better guitar player says little about their actual playing ability. I suppose that because Michael Phelps lost one race last week in his Olympic qualifier to his teammate that makes him an inferior swimmer. Your logic doesn't add up Volcano (but then again, it rarely does). Apparently every thread for you has to turn into a thread as to why Slash sucks. I serious don't understand your motivations for this but whatever floats your boat. You may feel like that Slash is an embarrassment on guitar, but just remember who wrote the iconic solos that you cheer on when DJ, Bumble or Fortus play them live. Those guy wouldn't have the jobs they now have if it weren't for the man in the top hat. I'm not a John Mayer fan but I can appreciate the fact that he can play; I just think he writes shit songs. Let me give you an example of how to discuss something in a thread that relates to Axl and Slash that doesn't disparage either:

As for the topic at hand, yes, for Axl it certainly was a double-edge sword having someone so iconic move on from the band. I look at someone like Ozzy who had to replace Randy Rhodes with Jake E. Lee and then Zakk Wylde. No one had too much of an issue with this (especially with replacing Rhodes who died) simply because the Ozzy brand was obviously synonymous with Ozzy. The fruitful beginnings and rise to domination of GNR was associated visually by Axl and Slash. Had Axl moved on from Guns N' Roses his eventual lead guitarist would not have received such a spiteful comparison with the image people have of GNR. Very few people have held much contempt for Slash's lead singers over the years because they weren't Axl simply because he wasn't attempting to change, revise or modify people's perceptions of what GNR is or was. As soon as anyone hears the intro to Sweet Child O' Mine or the outro guitar solo in November Rain they will immediately associate visually that sound to Slash. That's not an association that will easily or ever be changed unless Axl was able to stick with one guitar player and produce meaningful and numerous songs/albums. Buckethead obviously has/had a distinct sound a visual representation. Had they been able to work together for a five to ten year period I'm sure some if not most would have moved on from the associations they have of GNR and Slash. Returning to my Ozzy comparison, if you look at Black Sabbath after Ozzy's departure, the fact that they were able to produce relevant and noteworthy music with Ronnie James Dio speaks to how replacing a band member can be done if that's the route one wants to take. I suppose the same could be said with Van Halen and Sammy Hagar. Fans will come around if you give them a reason to. Apparently the public feels like Axl hasn't given enough to knock their old associations of GNR and Slash.

Remember though, like myself, GNR is a band synonymous with their youth. Youth, and its nostalgic influence, is a powerful force. Slash is always going to be part of my association with GNR as it was his playing, along with Axl's voice and piano playing, that had such a profound effect on my musical identity when I was young. I think for a lot of newer fans who weren't into GNR when they were younger (or weren't old enough to know of or appreciation GNR in its classic formation) have an easier time associating GNR without Slash's iconic look and sound. It's a contextual issue that I think is lost on most people. So I understand why people like Volcano and others who weren't big on GNR's formative years disparage the classic lineup like they do, but they ultimately fail to understand why others like myself substantiate guys like Slash, Izzy and Duff on a much higher level than they do.

Some bands, when drastic change is forced upon them, decide to end it simply because they feel like what they lost was too instrumental to continue without it. Look at Zeppelin, without Bonham's drums the band felt it just wouldn't be the same and decided to end it. Axl obviously felt differently with respect to GNR and Slash's departure. It's a tall order to fill on his part and some respect is deserved in attempting something so ambitious and what many would consider a fool's errand. Like I mentioned earlier, had Axl been able to hold on to Buckethead and produced a meaningful body of work I think he might have been able to achieve what he envisioned when he decided to regroup back in 1996 and 1997 with Slash and Duff's departure. Since that didn't happen and the man is now past the half-century mark, it doesn't seem like he'll ever escape Slash's shadow in the public's eye.

Cheers,

Andrew

Great post.

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Another addition I'll make is that Slash's association with GNR would not have been so prevalent had Axl launched the new GNR with a new album, new promotion and a setlist devoid of former material. If he truly wanted to unshackle all former associations of GNR with his new band, it might not have been a prudent move to comprise a setlist that wasn't 90% old material.

One can only image what people's perceptions would be like had GNR relaunched with a new album and setlist right from the get-go. I think ultimately Axl can't have it both ways - he can't have a setlist that's comprised mostly of classic GNR material and produce only one album and also expect fans to relinquish their old associations. If he truly wanted the public to accept his new band as Guns N' Roses, he needed to give them something truly new. He didn't do that, and for that reason he'll always be associated with his former lineup.

Cheers,

Andrew

Edited by downzy
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