The concept of Jesus

[The_Universal_Sigh]

So.

In the beginning God decided to create the universe, I guess he got lonely and felt he needed to create some beings to worship him. Adam and Eve were created and for some reason he decided to make one tree that they couldn't eat from: The tree of knowledge of good and evil. So I'm to understand that Adam and Eve had no concept of good... or maybe it's stressed mostly evil... before eating from this tree? Minor point. Anyway, a talking snake that was actually Satan, an evil being who gets pleasure out of torturing God's creations for all time whom God for some reason doesn't abolish and therefore is totally cool with, decides to convince them to eat from this one tree. God is aware of this but doesn't stop it... which is weird because obviously Adam and Eve don't understand that eating the apple is bad since they don't have a concept of good from evil so they don't know listening to a snake is bad and listening to God is good.

God, who knew this would happen and designed it to happen (allowed Satan to come to Earth, created the tree, allowed Adam to eat from it), then decides that because ignorant Adam ate from a specific tree the human race was forever cursed. Until Jesus.

Many years later (only a few thousand apparently) God decides "hey, I'll forgive these guys now". So the creator of the universe sees the following as the best, or only way, to forgive those that he in the first place condemned: To send himself who is also his son down to Earth to die in an underdeveloped part of the world in a fashion similar to other made up stories before him (virgin birth, etc, not confusing at all eh God?). If he condemned us and had the power to forgive us why would he need to go through this bizarre procedure of having himself get killed? Jesus didn't die for our sins, Jesus died because God couldn't forgive us for eating from the wrong tree that he allowed/designed for us to eat from, us without knowledge eating from that tree was wrong, so he had to send himself to Earth and kill himself to make it okay for himself to forgive us? That's quite a lot of bullshit for God to go through to get back to a pre-eating-of-a-bad-apple period that was only bad because he deemed it so. That makes sense to billions of people, somehow.

So the whole point of Jesus is some bizarre attempt by God to convince himself it's okay to forgive us, so long as we imagine he exists. Can anyone make the genesis/jesus story more logical? To me it's absolutely crazy. Aside from how crazy it is on it's own if you accept evolution as fact, which it obviously is, Adam and Eve never existed. If Adam never existed he never ate from the evil tree, if he never ate from the evil tree creating original sin than it doesn't matter if Jesus was a real dude or anything else because the very concept/need for Jesus never happened.

Evolution single handedly destroys Judaism, Christianity, and Islam by proving Genesis wrong... but that's another topic. I want to know specifically the Genesis/Jesus story. How is any of it logical?

[Dazey]

Evolution single handedly destroys Judaism, Christianity, and Islam by proving Genesis wrong.

It doesn't prove creation wrong as such but the rest of what you said is pretty much spot on.

[Budweiser]

I wish there was a subforum for atheist topics. Once upon a time I would involve myself in these threads, but now they are just repetitive dribble. What's the point?

So you don't believe in God or Jesus. Congratulations. Go outside and enjoy life without either idea. Next.

[Desperado]

that was probably one of the best posts ever

[shades]

Evolution single handedly destroys Judaism, Christianity, and Islam by proving Genesis wrong... but that's another topic. I want to know specifically the Genesis/Jesus story. How is any of it logical?

How is anything "logical" there Einstein?

Evoloution would have to be explained a little better to meet your wtf criteria too wouldnt it,

it all comes down to the beginning, something had to start it all.

Most of the stories you poke fun at are in all likelyhood more lesson based analogies than they are actually talking snakes and apples.

discipline, believing, trusting that there are consequences for what your mind tells you is wrong as you are doing it, etc.

Got to believe in something.

I was once told "what if" Christianity is right, Hell seems like a real bad place to end up just because you werent willing to have faith.

Faith is not a bad thing, doesnt cost you anything or hurt anyone.

I like to call it the love train.

jmo

[Forsaken]

I wish there was a subforum for atheist topics. Once upon a time I would involve myself in these threads, but now they are just repetitive dribble. What's the point?

So you don't believe in God or Jesus. Congratulations. Go outside and enjoy life without either idea. Next.

Seriously, this shit grows tiresome on this board.

[Dazey]

Evoloution would have to be explained a little better to meet your wtf criteria too wouldnt it,? It all comes down to the beginning, something had to start it all.

Evolution is pretty frickin' well explained these days to be honest. As well as any other field in science if not more so yet people don't seem to have a problem with other fields of study where there's no perceived conflict with scripture. That just seems odd to me. Gravity? Oh yeah, we believe in Gravity. People will happily trust the science of flight when Gravity is no less of a theory than Evolution but that's cos the creation of big metal flying things doesn't contradict the bible. I mean let's face it honestly, if you don't believe in evolution is it because it doesn't fit into your religious world view or because after a full and thorough appraisal of the evidence you drew that conclusion? I'm going 99% with the former statement.

You're very right about something having to start it all; the thing that there's no evidence to suggest it was a god. The answer to that point would be that we know pretty much exactly what happened from the second the universe winked into existence up until the present day and as far as life is concerned we've got that pretty much nailed down from the first self-replicating cellular organism. What started the universe and what made that organism? We don't know but that's no reason to presume anything without corroborating evidence.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Dazey

[ThomasMeadow]

I don't follow any church. And I honestly don't buy into any church. But as long as people are being peaceful about their "god" who am I to say?

Edited July 12, 2012 by ThomasMeadow

[Guest Satanisk_Slakt]

I don't follow any church. And I honestly don't by into any church. But as long as people are being peaceful about their "god" who am I to say?

Agreed. I see no point in constantly bashing religious people over and over again. As long as they don't do any harm, let them do whatever they want.

[Guest Len B'stard]

I don't follow any church. And I honestly don't by into any church. But as long as people are being peaceful about their "god" who am I to say?

Agreed. I see no point in constantly bashing religious people over and over again. As long as they don't do any harm, let them do whatever they want.

i think a lot of the issues arise when they do do harm i.e. when it effects government policy on something that effects all of us, or sort of moral issues of the day that are decided on the basis of a particular faith and it's tenets...so in defence of the non-believers, they ain't just pointless attacks for the sake of attacking. I'm sure a parrallel can be drawn between the more militant atheists of the day and the rise of religious nutbaggery in the 21st Century. It's a reaction of sorts.

[shades]

I don't follow any church. And I honestly don't by into any church. But as long as people are being peaceful about their "god" who am I to say?

Agreed. I see no point in constantly bashing religious people over and over again. As long as they don't do any harm, let them do whatever they want.

i think a lot of the issues arise when they do do harm i.e. when it effects government policy on something that effects all of us, or sort of moral issues of the day that are decided on the basis of a particular faith and it's tenets...so in defence of the non-believers, they ain't just pointless attacks for the sake of attacking. I'm sure a parrallel can be drawn between the more militant atheists of the day and the rise of religious nutbaggery in the 21st Century. It's a reaction of sorts.

so why dont you shoot us an example of when Christianity "affected" you, or "effects" government policy with something other than making you feel uncomfortable that you dont believe

[YOUCOULDBEMINE.]

Evoloution would have to be explained a little better to meet your wtf criteria too wouldnt it,? It all comes down to the beginning, something had to start it all.

Evolution is pretty frickin' well explained these days to be honest. As well as any other field in science if not more so yet people don't seem to have a problem with other fields of study where there's no perceived conflict with scripture. That just seems odd to me. Gravity? Oh yeah, we believe in Gravity. People will happily trust the science of flight when Gravity is no less of a theory than Evolution but that's cos the creation of big metal flying things doesn't contradict the bible. I mean let's face it honestly, if you don't believe in evolution is it because it doesn't fit into your religious world view or because after a full and thorough appraisal of the evidence you drew that conclusion? I'm going 99% with the former statement.

You're very right about something having to start it all; the thing that there's no evidence to suggest it was a god. The answer to that point would be that we know pretty much exactly what happened from the second the universe winked into existence up until the present day and as far as life is concerned we've got that pretty much nailed down from the first self-replicating cellular organism. What started the universe and what made that organism? We don't know but that's no reason to presume anything without corroborating evidence.

This.

You really are at your best in topics like this btw.

[Rafał]

Evolution single handedly destroys Judaism, Christianity, and Islam by proving Genesis wrong... but that's another topic. I want to know specifically the Genesis/Jesus story. How is any of it logical?

How is anything "logical" there Einstein?

Evoloution would have to be explained a little better to meet your wtf criteria too wouldnt it,

it all comes down to the beginning, something had to start it all.

Most of the stories you poke fun at are in all likelyhood more lesson based analogies than they are actually talking snakes and apples.

discipline, believing, trusting that there are consequences for what your mind tells you is wrong as you are doing it, etc.

Got to believe in something.

I was once told "what if" Christianity is right, Hell seems like a real bad place to end up just because you werent willing to have faith.

Faith is not a bad thing, doesnt cost you anything or hurt anyone.

I like to call it the love train.

jmo

This comes down to the "it's all truth unless we say it's allegory when it's impossible that it really happened or controversial" shit.

[Dazey]

so why dont you shoot us an example of when Christianity "affected" you, or "effects" government policy with something other than making you feel uncomfortable that you dont believe

Banning federal funding for embryonic stem cell research? I have a cousin who was a professional sportsman and was left quadraplegic after sustaining a spinal injury in a car accident. Apparently an area of research that shows promise in the field of regenerative medicine has to be gimped cos George Bush thinks a couple of cells in a lab is a baby. Next question?

You really are at your best in topics like this btw.

One tries.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Dazey

[Rafał]

In my country the priests openly say who to vote for and who to boycott (during the rituals/wtf else is happening in christian catholic churches).

[MEXzilla]

I don't follow any church. And I honestly don't by into any church. But as long as people are being peaceful about their "god" who am I to say?

Agreed. I see no point in constantly bashing religious people over and over again. As long as they don't do any harm, let them do whatever they want.

I agree with u guys completely. Although I'm a god believer I never understood why people who believe in god bashed those who don't or vise versa. As for the main post I really don't know how to explain genesis lol. I believe in science yeah I know weird god n science lol but like science explains nothing exist out of nothing and as of now science can't explain the exact beginning of the universe so I choose to believe God made it. I don't know why but I felt I had to say that, anyways real great post dude.

Edited July 12, 2012 by MEXzilla

[Guest Len B'stard]

I don't follow any church. And I honestly don't by into any church. But as long as people are being peaceful about their "god" who am I to say?

Agreed. I see no point in constantly bashing religious people over and over again. As long as they don't do any harm, let them do whatever they want.

i think a lot of the issues arise when they do do harm i.e. when it effects government policy on something that effects all of us, or sort of moral issues of the day that are decided on the basis of a particular faith and it's tenets...so in defence of the non-believers, they ain't just pointless attacks for the sake of attacking. I'm sure a parrallel can be drawn between the more militant atheists of the day and the rise of religious nutbaggery in the 21st Century. It's a reaction of sorts.

so why dont you shoot us an example of when Christianity "affected" you, or "effects" government policy with something other than making you feel uncomfortable that you dont believe

Can't really help you there i'm afraid, i give about as much of a fuck about government policy and religion as i do about correct spelling and grammar, i was just attempting to explain some of the problems of the problems non-believers have, wasn't trying to align myself with believers or non-believers, i'm a don'tgiveafuck-er, i'm a simple man, long as i got food to eat and a roof over my head some good tunes and a bag of skunk, non believers and believers can fight each other to the death for all i care

Start a conversation on rock n roll or boxing with me and i'll talk your fuckin ears off But since you've mentioned it, i dunno, say abortion, this is something where people have attempted to effectively legislate their particular faith.

[Rafał]

I don't follow any church. And I honestly don't by into any church. But as long as people are being peaceful about their "god" who am I to say?

Agreed. I see no point in constantly bashing religious people over and over again. As long as they don't do any harm, let them do whatever they want.

I agree with u guys completely. Although I'm a god believer I never understood why people who believe in god bashed those who don't or vise versa. As for the main post I really don't know how to explain genesis lol. I believe in science yeah I know weird god n science lol but like science explains nothing exist out of nothing and as of now science can't explain the exact beginning of the universe so I choose to believe God made it. I don't know why but I felt I had to say that, anyways real great post dude.

But if God created it, then he must have created it from nothing too, so we have the same situation here. And then you also have the question, where did God come from? He couldn't have created himself, because to do that he would have to exist, and if he already existed he wouldn't create himself just to destroy himself so the new himself could stay as the God.

[shades]

This comes down to the "it's all truth unless we say it's allegory when it's impossible that it really happened or controversial" shit.

the very definition of allegory, something used to illustrate a complex set of ideas,

which certainly creation and all of the wonder we have falls under

is the entire essence of religion, or my religion anyway.

and nothing is impossible if you think about it with the same brain that you rely on the science of everything around us as to some sort of explanation.

the fact that we rotate 93 million miles away from the sun,

and if we were just 1 mile closer we would burn up or just 1 mile further away we would freeze can all be explained away to you by some

random explosion millions of years ago I find not only ridiculous but would make a sensible person leary of any of your other thoughts.

no?

[Desperado]

so why dont you shoot us an example of when Christianity "affected" you, or "effects" government policy with something other than making you feel uncomfortable that you dont believe

Gay marriage, abortions, stem cell research, contraceptives are some things that have been rejected in many countrys because of religion.

It hasn't personaly effected me but many others.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Religion works under the premise that we, mankind, do not know everything. The ways of God are supposed to be a mystery to us. So, yeah, that's why it isn't logical. It isn't a fucking equation. Its a faith. It takes faith to believe in it, not deduction.

How is this so simple and we still have these arguments?

Surely thats grounds for even more argument though? Only this time about the nature of faith and it's application to concepts or discourses where sobriety and logic are perhaps more beneficial and furthermore, the nature of an entity like religion that would have your choices dictated to blindly?

Perhaps the real problem here is that abstractions shouldn't really factor into discussions or desicions made about the real and the tangible.

Shades made some interesting observations about metaphor and allegory...but i have a question...who among us is qualified to interpret God?

Edited July 12, 2012 by sugaraylen

[Dazey]

the fact that we rotate 93 million miles away from the sun,

and if we were just 1 mile closer we would burn up or just 1 mile further away we would freeze can all be explained away to you by some

random explosion millions of years ago I find not only ridiculous but would make a sensible person leary of any of your other thoughts.

no?

Well for a start you're talking bollocks right there! Might want to look up the idea of an "elliptical" orbit and put the King James Pop Up Book of Astronomy^TM down there Treacle! We actually vary in distance from the Sun by something like 3 MILLION miles depending on the time of year but why let good old facts get in the way of a good old bit of verbal Diarrhoea huh? Here’s a nice pretty picture for you! Hahaha! 1 mile eh? Fuck me I’ve heard it all now!

Also even if your original point was true it doesn't for a second mean we were "so perfectly designed that god had to have done it" it just means that out of the thousands of BILLIONS of planets in the hundreds of billions of galaxies in the universe that ONE of them happened to be in the right place. If you do the math and work out the odds it's not a stretch at all! Fuck me some of you lot make me laugh!

But yeah, I do see how "sensible" people like you might struggle with some of this.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Dazey

[Nobodys_Fault]

and if we were just 1 mile closer we would burn up or just 1 mile further away we would freeze

No we wouldn't. The earth is not at a constant distance from the sun... in fact we're 3 million miles closer to the sun in early January.

[Dazey]

and if we were just 1 mile closer we would burn up or just 1 mile further away we would freeze

No we wouldn't. The earth is not at a constant distance from the sun... in fact we're 3 million miles closer to the sun in early January.

This is the thing about the anti science whackjobs that boils my piss! If we go one mile closer or nearer we're dead? I mean it just shows utter willful ignorance of any kind of facts and these are the people trying to stop evolution being taught in schools!

Shades made some interesting observations about metaphor and allegory...

Yeah, before he dropped an absolute fucking bollock and got laughed out of the thread!

[Cosmo]

MyGnR has some really angry atheists. Actually, the internet is full of 'em now. It's like we'll be answering door to "Sir, have you heard the good news about atheism?"