Astrology in the GNR camp

[Angelica]

I'm joking, no hostility going on here...

Haha, and what a great joke it was! But I feel the full extent of it may have been lost by most if it isn't accompanied by the triplet of hilarious messages you posted on my profile:

Intelligence and humour, you got it all, axl8302!

Did not read the whole thread, but when you put people in a position of being able to make a decision to apply logic and reason to a comfortably ignorant part of their life, this happens. Common defence mechanism. You touched a nerve, obviously.

This.

[The Linguini Occurrence]

Even people have been (and are still being) killed because of religion, and our huge population number is due in some cases to uneducated people refusing to use natality control methods because they were forbidden by church.

Based on most recent available data, 41% of all live births in the United States were to unmarried women. In other countries the percentage of babies born out of wedlock is much higher (ie: 55% Sweden, 53% France). I'm pretty sure the church forbids unmarried couples from fornicating, so if you're going to blame the church for births resulting from a refusal to use birth control then you also have to give the church credit for preventing a large number of babies from being born out of wedlock.

And I have no idea why the church was dragged into a discussion about astrology.

[SoulMonster]

IMO astrology may be dangerous at an individual level if people become dependent. I mean, poor people who believe their fate is dominated by the stars and not by their good or bad choices, and the ones that can't make a decision without asking an astrologist for advice. But astrology is harmless compared to religion. Religion has had a global impact and it fucked up the world. Animals species have become extinct because as they are not supposed to have a soul it wasn't a sin to slaughter them. And the planet has been depleted because these people think god made it for humans to take profit of everything in it. Even people have been (and are still being) killed because of religion, and our huge population number is due in some cases to uneducated people refusing to use natality control methods because they were forbidden by church.

So I don't care about beliefs that only affect individuals in opposition to beliefs that can fuck the whole planet. But that's only the biology/conservation perspective, we don't think about individuals but about populations. And our population is extremely unhealthy because of the bad choices our ancestors made based in religions. Anyway, it's a boring conversation for a GNR forum Soul

On the level of truth, there isn't any difference between astrology, reincarnation, homoeopathy, karma, theistic religions, ghosts, unicorns and so on. They are all based on the premise of something existing for which no evidence exist. What makes them different from each other is not whether they are supported by any evidence or not, because none of them are, but to which degree their inherent irrational premise has been draped in additional dogmas that affect us. Theistic religions are a good example of something based on the simple irrational belief that the universe is created and maintained by a supernatural being (or beings) but where people have then added dogmas to this belief which affect believers (and, unfortunately often the case, non-believers). Some of these dogmas can be good for us ("give to the poor", the golden rule, etc) but many are bad ("you shall have no other gods than me", "our scripture trumps science", "prevention is bad", "chaos is good because the rapture is imminent", "hell exists"). Wars, terror, horrors are committed partly because people believe in the silly dogmas that humans have created to flesh out their irrational beliefs.

Astrology is pretty much harmless compared to theistic religions, but it does affect some individuals very negatively (those that waste their money and time because they truly believe in the hocus pocus of horoscopes). But what all these silly beliefs do is tell us that it is okay to believe in something for which no evidence exist. If we grow up in a family where our parents believe in astrology - no matter how innocent it might seem - it sends us the signal that it is okay to turn off the critical sense, evidence doesn't mean anything, you are free to inhabit the world with figments of your fantasy. And this idea, this notion, is dangerous because it gives us carte blanche to adopt the more harmful irrational beliefs. It doesn't give us the important mental resilience to see through the lies of beliefs that are completely empty on evidence. We won't reject them out of the reason that they have no supporting evidence, because to us that is not a prerequisite for what can be factual, plausible and worth spending time on. The idea that rationality is meaningless is the root to people who kill others in the name of whatever god they may believe exist, to people who get rich selling homoeopathic crap, to people who reject facts and knowledge because it contradicts their supposed holy scripture.

Edited September 13, 2012 by SoulMonster

[SoulMonster]

Everybody Chillax,I seriously doubt this discussion will convert/change anyone's beliefs/convictions-hasn't affected mine in the slightest.

It is not a matter of 'converting'. People who believe in silly things (like you) and people who don't (like me, I would hope) still share the great majority of our "belief system", so there really isn't about converting from something to something else. It is more of a minor tweak, really. I mean, you do understand that science is a marvellous method for figuring things out, even if this knowledge is too well buried in your conciousness to ever be expressed. After all, I am sure you marvelled at the recent Mars landing, a feat that could never have happened if not science had worked steadfastly for the last centuries. It is not like scripture or spiritual revelation or any horoscope could ever have got us on Mars . And you agree to this. Everybody does. Our world is filled with the fantastic results of science -- technology. The difference between us, which is rather small but important, is that whereas I stop believing when we have reached the point of implausibility, you just keep on going and going. You have basically told your reasoning faculties to go on vacation. A permanent vacation, I am afraid. So it is not a matter of "converting you", because you already agree that rationality is a great thing, it is just to reel you in a bit so you also realize that irrationality is silly and potentially bad.

[HisRoyalSweetness]

wow, this sure has turned into an uninteresting conversation.

[SoulMonster]

wow, this sure has turned into an uninteresting conversation.

Not enough whining about GN'R for you?

[HisRoyalSweetness]

no gnr at all. you're just talking about astrology. even worse, you're trying to have an intelligent conversation about something you think is stupid. pointless and boring all around. and preachy and self-important.

you're my least favorite member of this forum. far and away.

Edited September 13, 2012 by HisRoyalSweetness

[sailaway]

Everybody Chillax,I seriously doubt this discussion will convert/change anyone's beliefs/convictions-hasn't affected mine in the slightest.

It is not a matter of 'converting'. People who believe in silly things (like you) and people who don't (like me, I would hope) still share the great majority of our "belief system", so there really isn't about converting from something to something else. It is more of a minor tweak, really. I mean, you do understand that science is a marvellous method for figuring things out, even if this knowledge is too well buried in your conciousness to ever be expressed. After all, I am sure you marvelled at the recent Mars landing, a feat that could never have happened if not science had worked steadfastly for the last centuries. It is not like scripture or spiritual revelation or any horoscope could ever have got us on Mars . And you agree to this. Everybody does. Our world is filled with the fantastic results of science -- technology. The difference between us, which is rather small but important, is that whereas I stop believing when we have reached the point of implausibility, you just keep on going and going. You have basically told your reasoning faculties to go on vacation. A permanent vacation, I am afraid. So it is not a matter of "converting you", because you already agree that rationality is a great thing, it is just to reel you in a bit so you also realize that irrationality is silly and potentially bad.

Which part of "I'm not responding to you" did you not comprehend?

Go "reel" someone else in,I'm set with my spirituality.

My spiritual guide told me to ignore you.

wow, this sure has turned into an uninteresting conversation.

[Nosaj Thing]

wow, this sure has turned into an uninteresting conversation.

[SoulMonster]

Which part of "I'm not responding to you" did you not comprehend?

Yet you are responding to me. So perhaps it was the blatant insincerity?

My spiritual guide told me to ignore you.

I am happy to see you are ignoring the advice of your spiritual quack. It seems you were open to reason and sense after all.

[Nick83]

Soulmonster, something must have happened to you to for you to have this hate in your heart. Abused by someone perhaps?

[SoulMonster]

Soulmonster, something must have happened to you to for you to have this hate in your heart. Abused by someone perhaps?

Heh, no.

But hey! Weren't we playing some game? I thought you were going to do my horoscope or something based on when I was born and stuff. What's up with that? I could do with some generic, vague and generalized predictions for my future.

[Nick83]

Your astrological data told me all I need to know about you, which also included the fact that there is ZERO chance of making any progress with you.

[SoulMonster]

Your astrological data told me all I need to know about you, which also included the fact that there is ZERO chance of making any progress with you.

So every person born on that specific date and time in my hometown is destined to reject astrology? That is amazingly silly...and of course wrong. I hope you didn't pay any money for that horoscope.

If you want to make any "progress" with me you just have to present some evidence suggesting that there is any chance that astrology isn't complete hogwash. It is that simple.

[sailaway]

[quote name=Nick83' timestamp

='1347607055' post='3210234]

Soulmonster, something must have happened to you to for you to have this hate in your heart. Abused by someone perhaps?

Nick,Thats what I was thinking,poor thing lashimg out,not realizing that denial is not only a river in Egypt.

Needs Enlightenment (and therapy)

Edited September 14, 2012 by sailaway

[sailaway]

wow, this sure has turned into an uninteresting conversation.

Thank Bill Nye the Science guy for that

[sailaway]

Nick,lets overlook soul monster and the bickering.

Have you ever read any Joseph Campell books? Guy was brilliant!

“The goal of life is to make your heartbeat match the beat of the universe, to match your nature with Nature.” –Joseph Campbell

“The privilege of a lifetime is to be who you are.” – Joseph Campbell

“We must be willing to get rid of the life we’ve planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us.” ~ Joseph Campbell, US folklorist & expert on mythology (1904 – 1987)

“People say that what we’re all seeking is a meaning of life. I don’t think that’s what we’re really seeking. I think that what we’re really seeking is an experience of being alive, so that our life experiences on the purely physical plane will have resonances within our own innermost being and reality, so that we actually feel the rapture of being alive.” – Joseph Campbell in The Power of Myth

“You must have a room, or a certain hour or so a day, where you don’t know what was in the newspapers that morning… a place where you can simply experience and bring forth what you are and what you might be.” –Joseph Campbell, 1904-1987

“Once you know the difference between right and wrong, you have lots fewer decisions to make.” – Joseph Campbell, quoted in the biography “A Fire in the Mind – The Life of Joseph Campbell” by Stephen and Robin Larsen

“We are at this moment participating in one of the very greatest leaps of the human spirit.” – Joseph Campbell, 1904-1987

“When you follow your bliss…doors will open where you would not have thought there would be doors & where there wouldn’t be a door for anyone else.” – Joseph Campbell

Quote of the Day

“No matter how far you’ve gone down a wrong road, TURN BACK!”

Random Quote

“Be like a tree in pursuit of your cause. Stand firm, grip hard, thrust upward, bend to the winds of heaven, and learn tranquillity.”

Dedication to Richard St. Berbe Baker, Father of Trees

[sailaway]

*interview with B.Moyers excerpt

_________________________________________

Campbell: With passing over a boundary, the adventure begins. You get into a field that's unprotected, novel. You can't have creativity unless you leave behind the bounded, the fixed, all the rules.

Moyers: And life becomes-

Campbell:-harmonious, centered, and affirmative.

Moyers: Even with suffering?

Campbell: Exactly. The Buddhists speak of bodhisattva - the one who knows immortality, yet voluntarily enters into the field of fragmentation of time and participates willingly and joyfully in the sorrows of the world. And this means not only experiencing sorrows oneself but participating with compassion with the sorrow of others. Compassion is the awakening of the heart from bestial self-interest to humanity. The word "compassion" means literally "suffering with."

Moyers:But people ask, isn't myth a lie?

Campbell: No, mythology is not a lie, mythology is poetry, it is metaphorical. It has been well said that mythology is the penultimate truth -penultimate because the ultimate cannot be be put into words. It is beyond words, beyond images, beyond the bounding rim of the Buddhist Wheel of Becoming. Mythology pitches the mind beyond that rim, to what can be known but not told. So this is the penultimate truth. It's important to live life with the experience, and therefore the knowledge, of its mystery and your own mystery. This gives life a new radiance, a new harmony, a new splendor. Thinking in mythological terms helps to put you in accord with the inevitables of this vale of tears. You learn to recognize the positive values in what appear to be negative moments and aspects of your life. The big question is whether you are going to be say a hearty yes to your adventure.

Moyers:The adventure of the hero?

Campbell:Yes, the adventure of the hero - the adventure of being alive.

[Nick83]

Sailaway, those are some fantastic quotes. I haven't read Joseph Campbell yet, but I am going to check him out. Do you have any other recommendations from any other inspiring minds?

[SoulMonster]

Needs Enlightenment (and therapy)

I love the irony of you implying that people who don't believe in superstition should seek therapy

[axl8302]

Needs Enlightenment (and therapy)

I love the irony of you implying that people who don't believe in superstition should seek therapy

Here he comes!

[sailaway]

Needs Enlightenment (and therapy)

I love the irony of you implying that people who don't believe in superstition should seek therapy

At the risk of ruining my chakra alignment,and goofing up my cosmic vibrations,I feel the need to point out the error of your statement.

I wasn't suggesting that "everyone not believing in Astrology" should get therapy,only that YOU may benefit from it.

As.far as I am concerned,spirituality is up to the individual.

Whatever makes life meaningful and bearable.

Jai guru deva Om.

[SoulMonster]

Needs Enlightenment (and therapy)

I love the irony of you implying that people who don't believe in superstition should seek therapy

I wasn't suggesting that "everyone not believing in Astrology" should get therapy,only that YOU may benefit from it.

Interesting. Why do I need therapy, then? Because I believe your irrational beliefs are...irrational? Or because I have the audacity to actually express and discuss this instead of just evading the issue because we shouldn't confuse and upset the poor guys who believe in such things by actually saying it is wrong?

[axl8302]

Needs Enlightenment (and therapy)

I love the irony of you implying that people who don't believe in superstition should seek therapy

I wasn't suggesting that "everyone not believing in Astrology" should get therapy,only that YOU may benefit from it.

Interesting. Why do I need therapy, then? Because I believe your irrational beliefs are...irrational? Or because I have the audacity to actually express and discuss this instead of just evading the issue because we shouldn't confuse and upset the poor guys who believe in such things by actually saying it is wrong?

Are you crying, again?

[sailaway]

Sailaway, those are some fantastic quotes. I haven't read Joseph Campbell yet, but I am going to check him out. Do you have any other recommendations from any other inspiring minds?

Nick,I read a lot-all joseph campell's books,a bit of Carlos Castenada,If you do research on "the Hero's journey,or look into Shamanism you will find some deep reading,,

By all means be selective,I dont believe everybody that does Astrology charts,or an I-ching reading,but certain people resonate in your soul, also Astral travel and hypnotherapy are helpful w/stress.

I will look up some further reading,if you would like-it will keep me distracted from the idiot topics.

Even Jim Morrison saw the concert experience as something sacred,an initiation,And at one time Jimmy Page owned Alistair Crowleys house,NIN did some recording on Cielo drive in the house that the Tate murder was committed in,(it has since been demolished)

So, spirituality and Rock music go back decades- to the crossroads if you are familiar with the Robert Johnson story,yeah that was technically blues,but- I'll find some further reading,and inspiring quotes to post