Gangster movies in rap culture

[Vincent Vega]

In rap culture, I've noticed that gangsters in movies like Scarface and New Jack City are always thought to be badass, an influence. You can definitely see the Scarface influence in rap culture...One thing I don't get is, why do rappers worship guys who get killed in the end? What I mean is, Tony Montana is portrayed as this big bad ass in pop culture, in rap culture...But he loses in the end. By the end of the film he's addicted like crazy to his own product, his connections have dumped him and he's pumped full of bullets. Or Nino Brown--The guy goes and snitches on his partner to save himself, and then gets blasted to Hell minutes later. But both are regarded as heroes in the rap culture.

I'll never understand it. Rap/Hip Hop culture uplifts gangsters as the ultimate badass but in almost every gangster movie, the gangster gets his ass killed.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Rap Culture doesn't do it, America does it. Scarface was a favorite before rap was big. The original Scarface was before rappers were born, it's not even just America, it's all over the world, Butch and Sundance were criminals, Al Capone, a man that graced the cover of Time Magazine in his day, was a criminal, Lucky Luciano, Whitey Bulger, all these guys are immortalised in film and, to some degree, considered badasses.

It's just a story and it sells, end of. And i don't think Nino Brown is considered a hero in rap culture...or Scarface for that matter. The issue is bigger than rap and started back when books and tracts started coming out glorifying people like Billy the Kid, then your Warner Bros gangster movies with Cagney and Bogart and George Raft and all these guys, they all ended up dead in the movies.

It's a pheripheral thing, just a parrallel drawn to project a certain image, playfully at that, there's really that much thought put into it, it's too offhand to bear scrutiny.

You're very much mistaken though if you think that those fictional characters are some kind of hip hop heroes cuz they're not.

Edited September 25, 2012 by sugaraylen

[Carne_asaDA]

Scarface is one of the most overrated gangster movies EVER.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Scarface is one of the most overrated gangster movies EVER.

Yeah, gimme King of New York any day

[Georgy Zhukov]

Rap Culture doesn't do it, America does it. Scarface was a favorite before rap was big. The original Scarface was before rappers were born, it's not even just America, it's all over the world, Butch and Sundance were criminals, Al Capone, a man that graced the cover of Time Magazine in his day, was a criminal, Lucky Luciano, Whitey Bulger, all these guys are immortalised in film and, to some degree, considered badasses.

It's just a story and it sells, end of. And i don't think Nino Brown is considered a hero in rap culture...or Scarface for that matter. The issue is bigger than rap and started back when books and tracts started coming out glorifying people like Billy the Kid, then your Warner Bros gangster movies with Cagney and Bogart and George Raft and all these guys, they all ended up dead in the movies.

It's a pheripheral thing, just a parrallel drawn to project a certain image, playfully at that, there's really that much thought put into it, it's too offhand to bear scrutiny.

You're very much mistaken though if you think that those fictional characters are some kind of hip hop heroes cuz they're not.

I believe rappers idolize film version of gangsters over real life men Luciano, Capone, Costello, ect. The only gangster they seem familiar with is John Gotti who loved the camera.

I don't know if it was Cagney or Edward G. Robinson but one of them refused to die again so Bogart got the lead in one of the films.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Stannis Baratheon

[Mao5]

In rap culture, I've noticed that gangsters in movies like Scarface and New Jack City are always thought to be badass, an influence. You can definitely see the Scarface influence in rap culture...One thing I don't get is, why do rappers worship guys who get killed in the end? What I mean is, Tony Montana is portrayed as this big bad ass in pop culture, in rap culture...But he loses in the end. By the end of the film he's addicted like crazy to his own product, his connections have dumped him and he's pumped full of bullets. Or Nino Brown--The guy goes and snitches on his partner to save himself, and then gets blasted to Hell minutes later. But both are regarded as heroes in the rap culture.

I'll never understand it. Rap/Hip Hop culture uplifts gangsters as the ultimate badass but in almost every gangster movie, the gangster gets his ass killed.

99% of movies are propaganda, that's why the bad guy must die at the end. and the rule of law must prevail...

if some rappers respect gangsters so much, that's partly because gangsters are seen as examples of tough self-made men who reached fortune in the capitalist society.

in france, a real life gangster as jacques mesrine is a hero among the suburban youth. many rappers paid homage to mesrine in their music. a good movie in two episodes has been released in 2008 about mesrine's life. mesrine wasn't the typical gangster, he reached political consciousness and declared war to society.

[dalsh327]

Are gangster movies that prevalent in rap though?

[Guest Len B'stard]

Are gangster movies that prevalent in rap though?

There was a period in rap where the mafioso thing was huge, Junior MAFIA and Biggie, Raekwon and Ghost doing all that mob stuff, Hip Hop is generally littered with pop culture references really, this stuff is just part of it. There's definitely a link, Frank White aka Big Smalls, Snoop Dogg-Corleone, the rapper Scarface, it's littered with references but it's littered with all sorts of shit really.

[Georgy Zhukov]

The pre-code gangster films gave a gritty portrayal of the mob world. They all followed the same formula, guy makes it big, the audiences are put in the position where they want that life of their own (especially during the Depression) but are afraid to take it and in the last half of the film they go into decline and eventually die in the streets.

Interestingly enough they only portrayed Irish and Italian gangsters and never the Jewish gangsters. Possibly because Jack Warner was Jewish even though he witnessed similar activies growing up and pretty much lived like a gangster. The Jewish gangs were just as ruthless as the Irish gangs and the Italian America Syndicate later becoming the Five Families of New York, New England, New Jersey and the Chicago Outfit headed by Johnny Torrio and later Al Capone. Men like Rothstien, Lansky and Siegel laid the foundations for organized crime.

[Guest Len B'stard]

The pre-code gangster films gave a gritty portrayal of the mob world. They all followed the same formula, guy makes it big, the audiences are put in the position where they want that life of their own (especially during the Depression) but are afraid to take it and in the last half of the film they go into decline and eventually die in the streets.

Some heavyweight movies came out of that whole era man, it's one of my favorites ever and some of the great ones are the forgotten ones, George Raft out of that era is kind of ignored, a lot of Bogies gangster movies are kinda forgotten, Petrified Forest is a great one although it's not really gangster as in mob, organised crime type thing.

There's a great one with Bogie and the Lower East Side kids, can't remember the name now but it's a fuckin' belter, real NY neighbourhood picture, i think it was called Dead End, dunno if you've seen it but you should check it out if you haven't.

John Garfield was great in those kinda roles too, ever see They Made Me a Criminal? Great movie.

The king of em for me is Cagney although one of the best performances, i mean for the era and overall, it's just amazing how far ahead this guy was, was Paul Muni in Scarface. Muni is another fucking genius of an actor...and pretty fuckin' forgotten too, shame, a real artist was Muni.

[Georgy Zhukov]

Cagney really wanted to get away from the gangster films. He was a natural since he had disadvantages growing up, he was a fantastic dancer but he didn't have the face for it in film like Fred Astaire did. Hollywood just wanted to recreate films where audiences can see their stars doing films they love. Cagney really shined in Yankee Doodle Dandy. He was really fucking good at being a tough guy. He became the first action hero in G-Men when be played a bad ass FBI agent.

Been wanted to watch Scarface with Muni. I hate it when people think the Scarface with Pacino was a remake.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Cagney really wanted to get away from the gangster films. He was a natural since he had disadvantages growing up, he was a fantastic dancer but he didn't have the face for it in film like Fred Astaire did. Hollywood just wanted to recreate films where audiences can see their stars doing films they love. Cagney really shined in Yankee Doodle Dandy. He was really fucking good at being a tough guy. He became the first action hero in G-Men when be played a bad ass FBI agent.

Been wanted to watch Scarface with Muni. I hate it when people think the Scarface with Pacino was a remake.

Oh mate, you need to get on that man, seriously. It's a remake and it's a closer remake than you might initially imagine, there's lots of Muni's characterisation in Pacino performance, which makes it all the more aggravating that, y'know, he's so lauded for that performance and yet so much of it is a take on Muni's. A man like you, whoose seen the movies of that era will get it instantly when you see Muni performance, honestly mate it's the fuckin bollocks, you seriously SERIOUSLY need to get on that man.

Go on, go on Birdie, click it, click it and sit back, you know you want to

I think there was a handful of pre-Brando actors that were like signposts to where acting was going, Cagney, Muni, Henry Fonda, John Garfield and Muni's performance in films like this and The Good Life and Emile Zola and I Was A Fugitive From A Chain Gang were serious standout turns.

Edited September 25, 2012 by sugaraylen

[Randy Lahey]

[Vincent Vega]

The pre-code gangster films gave a gritty portrayal of the mob world. They all followed the same formula, guy makes it big, the audiences are put in the position where they want that life of their own (especially during the Depression) but are afraid to take it and in the last half of the film they go into decline and eventually die in the streets.

Some heavyweight movies came out of that whole era man, it's one of my favorites ever and some of the great ones are the forgotten ones, George Raft out of that era is kind of ignored, a lot of Bogies gangster movies are kinda forgotten, Petrified Forest is a great one although it's not really gangster as in mob, organised crime type thing.

There's a great one with Bogie and the Lower East Side kids, can't remember the name now but it's a fuckin' belter, real NY neighbourhood picture, i think it was called Dead End, dunno if you've seen it but you should check it out if you haven't.

John Garfield was great in those kinda roles too, ever see They Made Me a Criminal? Great movie.

The king of em for me is Cagney although one of the best performances, i mean for the era and overall, it's just amazing how far ahead this guy was, was Paul Muni in Scarface. Muni is another fucking genius of an actor...and pretty fuckin' forgotten too, shame, a real artist was Muni.

Do you like the gangster drama Manhattan Melodrama? Was the film Dillinger saw before he exited the theater and was gunned down....

[The Sandman]

[Guest Len B'stard]

Do you like the gangster drama Manhattan Melodrama? Was the film Dillinger saw before he exited the theater and was gunned down....

Saw that a great long time ago on TV as a kid, it has Myrna Loy in it too if i'm not mistaken. Was it Myrna Loy or Jean Harlow? I can't fuckin remember but yeah, i have seen that film, have some very fond memories attached to it actually, Clark Gable was a formiddible (i totally forgot how to spell that fuckin' word) actor. I had no idea about the Dillinger connection.

Hey Birdie, did you ever see Cagney in The Doorway to Hell? It's the first gangster movie he did and it's fuckin' fantastic, Lew Ayers is in it, you should check it out.

It's really getting difficult to remember all the films i've seen, i can literally go through the filmographies of Cagney and Bogie etc and i've seen about 99% of the films of both (probably 100% with Bogie) but i can't remember em, i need to read the synopsis or maybe a characters name or something will spark my memory and it'll be like "oh yeahhh, i remember that one!".

Edited September 26, 2012 by sugaraylen

[Vincent Vega]

Do you like the gangster drama Manhattan Melodrama? Was the film Dillinger saw before he exited the theater and was gunned down....

Saw that a great long time ago on TV as a kid, it has Myrna Loy in it too if i'm not mistaken. Was it Myrna Loy or Jean Harlow? I can't fuckin remember but yeah, i have seen that film, have some very fond memories attached to it actually, Clark Gable was a formiddible (i totally forgot how to spell that fuckin' word) actor. I had no idea about the Dillinger connection.

Hey Birdie, did you ever see Cagney in The Doorway to Hell? It's the first gangster movie he did and it's fuckin' fantastic, Lew Ayers is in it, you should check it out.

It's really getting difficult to remember all the films i've seen, i can literally go through the filmographies of Cagney and Bogie etc and i've seen about 99% of the films of both (probably 100% with Bogie) but i can't remember em, i need to read the synopsis or maybe a characters name or something will spark my memory and it'll be like "oh yeahhh, i remember that one!".

Yeah Dillinger went to the movie theaters to see it with his girlfriend, "The Lady in Red". The FBI was staked out, plainclothes, all outside and began to move in after he went in. He watched the movie the whole way through, then exited the theater. The Lady in Red fingered him to the FBI, then they tried to catch him, he fled and was shot to death right outside the theater.

I'll have to check out that one. I love Cagney's gangster films.

[Death Star]

Samples some GoodFellas

[Guest Len B'stard]

Criminology off Raekwons album samples Scarface, the remake. Jay Z's first album samples Carlitos Way, Ironman, Ghostfaces album samples tons of movies, you could reel em off all day really. Notorious BIGs nickname was Frank White as in King of New York, Funkmaster Flex's Mixtape, the one with Big Kap, that samples Carlitos Way, the list in endless really, Big Punishers album Capital Punishment samples the movie Fresh, these are just off the top of my head. There's another Jay Z one that samples Goodfellas, the whole "fuck you, pay me!" routine.

[Georgy Zhukov]

I wonder how the generation who grew up on Warner Brother gangster films felt about The Godfather films? in those films the gangster always ends up dead after a decline but at the end of The Godfather, Michael wins. Part II he wins but loses his soul, Part III he wins but loses something he holds dear but he dies in peace.

[Jakey Styley]

There's a popular beat that a lot of rappers (Pusha T, Lil Wayne, and Meek Mill off the top of my head) used this past year called "Tony Montana". It was originally used by Future. It sucks.

A rising star from Chicago named Chief Keef (he originally did Don't Like from Cruel Summer) calls himself Sosa.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Jakey Styley

[ThomasMeadow]

I can't stand most rap and I can't stand most "gangster" films.