If you accept the UYI lineup(s), then you should accept the CD lineup(s). Do you agree with this logic?

[Young_Gun]

Not really. Izzy was still there for the writing of UYI's and toured some of it. Gilby never wrote a note. Matt was a drummer which although it did affect their sound, did not affect the songwriting. You still had the majority of the original band and all the songwriters on UYI. The CD lineup is totally different as all the primary songwriters have left. Also that the lineup only consists of one original member instead or 3 changes the platform. Just my opinion anyway.

[dalsh327]

If you accept the UYI lineup(s), then you should accept the CD lineup(s). Do you agree with this logic?

I accept the lineup to a point because Slash, Duff, and Izzy signed their rights to the name over, but it wouldn't be GNR without Axl, either. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

I think if Slash and Duff stayed in GNR, most of these songs would have made it out, maybe not as electronics heavy, but Axl seemed to want to take on writing all the songs.

Maybe if Robin had been hired on when Slash was still in the band, things might have turned out differently, because Robin's not a spotlight stealer. Someone like Zakk is.

It was always a collective of ideas, but GNR wasn't a one man band concept like NIN. Smashing Pumpkins and The Who had a strong driving force behind both bands, but the SP sound was primarily Jimmy and Billy, but Jimmy wasn't a founding member. The Who was determined like Pink Floyd to have 1 do most of the writing, 1 to do most of the singing.

I'm sure part of what Axl's manager made sure of was to make sure what Gilmour did to Roger in using the Pink Floyd name, Slash, Duff and Izzy would never do. I highly doubt they would have, but that's like the people who thought Roth would always be in Van Halen. Frontmen do leave bands (Peter Gabriel, Syd Barrett, Lou Gramm, Steve Perry, Lou Reed).

Axl turned GNR into Steely Dan, but even with SD, you had two strong willed guys who wrote all the songs and one who sang the majority of the songs, but they were band members featured on the album covers and promo photos for the first couple of years. No one really knows who Denny Dias was, but he was a founding member of Steely Dan, but never wrote songs with them, so he's kind of irrelevant to most fans of theirs.

I disagree that the band had no say in the songs when they helped create the songs. If they all thought it sucked or Axl felt they were kind of "meh" about it, he prob. scrapped it. They all talk with pride (except Bucket) about what they contributed, I think Brain was frustrated with RTB and Axl for a while, but he's never said anything like he hated the experience. Why would he have toured with them when he had plenty of options and kept Claypool waiting who was doing plenty of festivals at the time?

Edited January 10, 2013 by dalsh327

[James Bond]

I can understand where the logic is coming from since the Illusions tour contained the first "replacements," but ultimately it's a different scenario because you still had 3/5 of the band that released Appetite and contributed to the initial success. You had 4/5 for the first bit of the tour anyways. While Izzy was a big contributor to the songwriting, in the public eye Guns N' Roses was Axl and Slash. They were the image of the band. Duff was an added bonus in that he was still around as well. So again, a different scenario than now.

With no disrespect to the other guys intended, I honestly believe any line-up would be accepted by the public provided it had Axl and Slash. People I know in real life who dismiss the current line-up usually limit their feelings to "It's not the same without Slash" as opposed to "It's not the same without Slash, Izzy, Duff and Steven" - if that makes sense.

I wish people would stop with the "Slash doubled up guitars" thing. Yes, for Civil War, Locomotive, The Garden and Coma he did. Nothing else. Izzy plays on the rest and if you're listening to his playing you should defintely know it's him. Izzy in the left, Slash in the right. Especially on UYI 1 as I feel UYI2 is where they truly put him low in the mix.

This. Izzy's still there, his guitar is just mixed really low. The same was true for the tour and it happened to Gilby too. Take the Tokyo DVDs for example - you can barely tell there's a second guitar for half of the show. Most bootlegs from that period suffer the same fate.

[saber_]

There have been some good points so far. People have pointed out where the logic doesn't work: the UYI lineup(s) contained more key members from the original lineup. The UYI and CD lineups are similar only in that they are not the AFD lineup. However, I still believe a case could be made that if one accepts the UYI lineup, then one is accepting a progression and/or evolution of the band, and therefore one should accept the latest incarnation/evolution of the band: the CD lineup(s). I get why people don't accept the CD lineup(s), but I still wanted to explore the issue nonetheless.

[izzydoezit]

The problem with the CD era for me is that the members had NO SAY in the artistic creation of the album.

There you go again talking out of your ass when it comes to music *sigh*

Check the credits on CD and you will be amazed and how many people had input in every song.

Input means just writing parts. Axl had complete artistic control of pretty much everything on the album including guitars. That's why you had numerous guitar parts from various guitarists that were overlaid, mixed, deleted , re-recorded etc. Please think before posting because your immature stupid posts are a waste of kilobytes.

[Tomek1985]

Nope.

[izzydoezit]

There have been some good points so far. People have pointed out where the logic doesn't work: the UYI lineup(s) contained more key members from the original lineup. The UYI and CD lineups are similar only in that they are not the AFD lineup. However, I still believe a case could be made that if one accepts the UYI lineup, then one is accepting a progression and/or evolution of the band, and therefore one should accept the latest incarnation/evolution of the band: the CD lineup(s). I get why people don't accept the CD lineup(s), but I still wanted to explore the issue nonetheless.

Yes, but the main argument presented by most people is that with UYI there was truly an evolution and many common elements in sound of previous and the then current band, whereas in CD you have a completely new band which:

1. is not really a band situation, but merely hired hands.

2. you have had every single member replaced and not in an evolutionary way, but quite abruptly.

Edited January 10, 2013 by izzydoezit

[volcano62]

The problem with the CD era for me is that the members had NO SAY in the artistic creation of the album.

There you go again talking out of your ass when it comes to music *sigh*

Check the credits on CD and you will be amazed and how many people had input in every song.

Input means just writing parts. Axl had complete artistic control of pretty much everything on the album including guitars. That's why you had numerous guitar parts from various guitarists that were overlaid, mixed, deleted , re-recorded etc. Please think before posting because your immature stupid posts are a waste of kilobytes.

Izzyfuckit -

CD was a full collaboration whether you accept it or not.

[Freddie Mercury's Ghost]

CD was a full collaboration whether you accept it or not.

Axl and Caram Costanzo EDITED GUITAR SOLOS TOGETHER from multiple takes - Brian May said that pissed him off when he heard them play back "Catcher in the Rye" and Bumblefoot was pissed off about some of his work on the final album being copied-and-pasted too.

Axl was the only one with final say on the track listing.

That's not a full collaboration. It's Axl hiring studio musicians under the guise of Guns N' Roses and controlling everything himself.

[izzydoezit]

The problem with the CD era for me is that the members had NO SAY in the artistic creation of the album.

There you go again talking out of your ass when it comes to music *sigh*

Check the credits on CD and you will be amazed and how many people had input in every song.

Input means just writing parts. Axl had complete artistic control of pretty much everything on the album including guitars. That's why you had numerous guitar parts from various guitarists that were overlaid, mixed, deleted , re-recorded etc. Please think before posting because your immature stupid posts are a waste of kilobytes.

Izzyfuckit -

CD was a full collaboration whether you accept it or not.

Full collaboration? lol yeah. keep telling yourself that. Read above post to see why you were pwned again.

[GnR Chris]

This is a ludicrous argument for reasons that have already been stated here.

[saber_]

This is a ludicrous argument for reasons that have already been stated here.

When I was a kid, I was pissed off about Matt Sorum and the backup singers, and Gilby. Especially Gilby. I got over it though. And I eventually accepted that the band was changing.

So, as ludicrous as the premise might be, I have learned to accept the changes in the band over the years, and part of that stems from being able to accept the UYI lineup(s).

[Vincent Vega]

The UYI lineup is GN'R. It's a collaboration between Axl, Slash, Izzy and Duff, which are the core of GN'R. Gilby is more GN'R even just by virtue of TSI than Bbf or DJ Ashba will ever be.

The CD "band" is Axl Rose directing a bunch of session musicians who have no say in anything.

The UYI albums rock and were massive hits both critically and commercially.

CD was a flop which got mixed to negative reviews and is generally hated by the rock public.

The UYIs IMO are GN'R's best efforts.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Vincent Vega

[wasted]

Pretty much. Gilby and Matt were sanctioned by Slash and Duff. It's like if Slash replaced Dj and Duff replaced Tommy today and they said Ron and Frank and Fortus were cool. I'm sure everyone would accept that as GNR. Maybe?

I don't agree with your "pretty much" but do agree with you that if Slash and Duff rejoined the band many of the NuGuns haters would embrace that band..

Were biased all of us in someway. If you strip it down accepting the slash and duff bumble line up is hypocritical. In someways you could say matt and gilby could be seen as doing us a favor to keep the band together. But in that could be how Axl saw all the line ups. I personally dont care its interesting to have various line ups. All we are is entertainment.

[Johnny Drama]

I wish people would stop with the "Slash doubled up guitars" thing. Yes, for Civil War, Locomotive, The Garden and Coma he did. Nothing else. Izzy plays on the rest and if you're listening to his playing you should defintely know it's him. Izzy in the left, Slash in the right. Especially on UYI 1 as I feel UYI2 is where they truly put him low in the mix.

I have to partially disagree. You're right in that on the songs you listed Izzy didn't play on them. However, UYI is definitely not as clear cut as Izzy on left and Slash on right. Also, from the sounds of it, Izzy laid one rhythm track down on the songs and Slash laid down at least 2 guitar tracks - one of him doing rhythm and one doing lead. In many cases, Slash overdubbed more than two guitars. You can hear Izzy's faint "strum-like" rhythm on many tracks but it's buried deep, while Slash's rhythm parts have that "driving" power chord feel. Then Slash lays a lead track with riffs overtop - plus, he then overdubs his solo separately. Not to mention if he adds an acoustic part, 6-string bass, banjo, etc..

Yeah but that's not doubling up for Izzy. That's how Slash always recorded his guitars and how it was done on AFD as well. Double tracked rhythm/live tracks with a double tracked lead guitar overdubbed on top. The difference for UYI is that Izzy was low in the mix and he wasn't double tracked. Of course like I said his guitar does stand out more on UYI 1 than 2 eg. Perfect Crime, Don't Damn Me.

[Crash Diet]

If you accept the UYI lineup(s), then you should accept the CD lineup(s). Do you agree with this logic?

No

because UYI lineup(s) contains some classic members whom made classic tunes. CD lineup(s) don't make classic tunes

If you accept the UYI lineup(s), then you should accept the CD lineup(s). Do you agree with this logic?

Well, you haven't explained your logic. Hard to explain that when you can't explain how you've hit 40 years old and have to answer to still being a virgin and spending your nights playing with your light saber

No, because Izzy still toured during parts of UYI and both he and Steven (to a much lesser extent) contributed to the albums.

Dizzy Reed was involved more than Izzy at this time then, no?

ROFLROFLROFL best post towards brainsaber

I agree Saber...I've accepted every lineup as GNR since the beginning.

The line up(s) with Slash as well?

because it seems to me, you hate Slash more than Axl hates Slash

[GN'R Lies]

The problem with the CD era for me is that the members had NO SAY in the artistic creation of the album.

There you go again talking out of your ass when it comes to music *sigh*

Check the credits on CD and you will be amazed and how many people had input in every song.

Input means just writing parts. Axl had complete artistic control of pretty much everything on the album including guitars. That's why you had numerous guitar parts from various guitarists that were overlaid, mixed, deleted , re-recorded etc. Please think before posting because your immature stupid posts are a waste of kilobytes.

Izzyfuckit -

CD was a full collaboration whether you accept it or not.

Of course there was collaboration, and the other guys may have contributed to decisions, but the decisions themselves would have been made by Axl. That means their voice was only to provide their thoughts and recommendations. It was Axl who had the final say and full control. By my definition that's a solo artists position, not a band members position.

[izzydoezit]

Yes that's pretty much what I meant. Obviously Axl didn't write the (awful) riffs and solos note for note on CD. But he made them re-re-re-record them a million times each and then he pasted parts into Chinese Democracy.