A little bit of Oscar Wilde on Chinese Democracy

[Rustycage]

If the issue is critics, don't inflate the dubious reference with user reviews.

IMO, I'd never buy anything from anyone online with 3 of 5 stars. That's an average response. Average isn't positive.

[AXL_N_DIZZY]

If the issue is critics, don't inflate the dubious reference with user reviews.

IMO, I'd never buy anything from anyone online with 3 of 5 stars. That's an average response. Average isn't positive.

Not sure I see what is "dubious" about a website that merely functions as a compiler of high profile (e.g. RS, LA Times, Billboard, AllMusic, SPIN, Boston Globe, etc.) "critical reviews" written by others. The asserion that critics generally disliked Chinese Democracy in the face of such evidence is far more dubious IMHO (not saying you're making that specific assertion BTW- but others appear to be). Meanwhile- I was upfront from the very first post about the fact that there was a total of 349 user reviews. Incidentally St. Anger garnered 342 such reviews. Seems to be about par for the course for comparable releases. If 350 people showed up here tomorrow giving Chinese 8.2/10 reviews (on average)- I think folks would definitely take notice IMHO. That said- as not directly relevant to the issue at hand (professional critical response) it should probably be discounted for the purposes of this discussion. It was merely additional information provided by the same site.

Anyway- despite evidence to the contrary- I'm really not that emotionally invested in what kind of crtical response Chinese received. Crtics could have shredded it to smithereens and I still would have enjoyed many parts of that album. Hell- some very rough things have been written and said about the Illusions and TSI? through the years- and that doesn't stop UYI II in particular from being my all-time favorite album...

[Spirit]

Also, 340+ people aren't a good sample size of the population. LOL

I think reassurance from a website that most of the world couldn't give a shit about is dubious.

Actually 340 people is a quite good sample size. The margin of error would be around 6% according to scientific tables.

[Rustycage]

If people showed up here giving user reviews, it'd be the same circle jerk as always. They are fans. I don't know why anyone would rely on that when 350 people is a horrible sample size of international,national or even state/province regional sentiment. That's why it is dubious.

Also, 340+ people aren't a good sample size of the population. LOL

I think reassurance from a website that most of the world couldn't give a shit about is dubious.

Actually 340 people is a quite good sample size. The margin of error would be around 6% according to scientific tables.

LOL assuming that all plausible demographics are covered which there is no proof of in this case. Now this is getting silly.

So when 350 people sign a petition to remove GNR from the upcoming festival, do you consider that a good sample size?

Absolutely not.

[Spirit]

If people showed up here giving user reviews, it'd be the same circle jerk as always. They are fans. I don't know why anyone would rely on that when 350 people is a horrible sample size of international,national or even state/province regional sentiment. That's why it is dubious.

Also, 340+ people aren't a good sample size of the population. LOL

I think reassurance from a website that most of the world couldn't give a shit about is dubious.

Actually 340 people is a quite good sample size. The margin of error would be around 6% according to scientific tables.

LOL assuming that all plausible demographics are covered which there is no proof of in this case. Now this is getting silly.

So when 350 people sign a petition to remove GNR from the upcoming festival, do you consider that a good sample size?

Absolutely not.

But that's not the same thing.. Signing a petition as opposed to be asked to rate something on a scale from 1 to 10.

When 350 people sign that petition, that tells us that 350 people don't want GN'R at their concert. Nothing more.

When 350 people are rating an album we end up with an average rating that can be put in context with a general population. (With margin of error of course)

I will admit there's a factor of hardcore fans of the band rating the album which might overweigh the casual fan.

On a general base though, 350 people isn't a bad sample size. (1000 people are often used in official surveys)

Edited February 15, 2013 by Spirit

[Rustycage]

If people showed up here giving user reviews, it'd be the same circle jerk as always. They are fans. I don't know why anyone would rely on that when 350 people is a horrible sample size of international,national or even state/province regional sentiment. That's why it is dubious.

Also, 340+ people aren't a good sample size of the population. LOL

I think reassurance from a website that most of the world couldn't give a shit about is dubious.

Actually 340 people is a quite good sample size. The margin of error would be around 6% according to scientific tables.

LOL assuming that all plausible demographics are covered which there is no proof of in this case. Now this is getting silly.

So when 350 people sign a petition to remove GNR from the upcoming festival, do you consider that a good sample size?

Absolutely not.

But that's not the same thing.. Signing a petition as opposed to be asked to rate something on a scale from 1 to 10.

When 350 people sign that petition, that tells us that 350 people don't want GN'R at their concert. Nothing more.

When 350 people are rating an album we end up with an average rating that can be put in context with a general population. (With margin of error of course)

I will admit there's a factor of hardcore fans of the band rating the album which might overweigh the casual fan.

On a general base though, 350 people isn't a bad sample size. (1000 people are often used in official surveys)

It's bad sample size when it's so small that it doesn't tap all of the applicable demographics. The fact is we don't know a proper review of the album from that poll because of the extremely loose environment. You wanted to bring science into it but for starters, it wasn't a controlled poll and 300 of those people could be Axl fans. It's NOT a good sample size. Until they either have a huge amount of reviewers to cover every possible fan or control the environment, there was nothing worthy of science there.

350 isn't 1,000. And when those 1,000 are involved, they cover all of the demographics.

[Spirit]

If people showed up here giving user reviews, it'd be the same circle jerk as always. They are fans. I don't know why anyone would rely on that when 350 people is a horrible sample size of international,national or even state/province regional sentiment. That's why it is dubious.

Also, 340+ people aren't a good sample size of the population. LOL

I think reassurance from a website that most of the world couldn't give a shit about is dubious.

Actually 340 people is a quite good sample size. The margin of error would be around 6% according to scientific tables.

LOL assuming that all plausible demographics are covered which there is no proof of in this case. Now this is getting silly.

So when 350 people sign a petition to remove GNR from the upcoming festival, do you consider that a good sample size?

Absolutely not.

But that's not the same thing.. Signing a petition as opposed to be asked to rate something on a scale from 1 to 10.

When 350 people sign that petition, that tells us that 350 people don't want GN'R at their concert. Nothing more.

When 350 people are rating an album we end up with an average rating that can be put in context with a general population. (With margin of error of course)

I will admit there's a factor of hardcore fans of the band rating the album which might overweigh the casual fan.

On a general base though, 350 people isn't a bad sample size. (1000 people are often used in official surveys)

It's bad sample size when it's so small that it doesn't tap all of the applicable demographics. The fact is we don't know a proper review of the album from that poll because of the extremely loose environment. You wanted to bring science into it but for starters, it wasn't a controlled poll and 300 of those people could be Axl fans. It's NOT a good sample size. Until they either have a huge amount of reviewers to cover every possible fan or control the environment, there was nothing worthy of science there.

350 isn't 1,000. And when those 1,000 are involved, they cover all of the demographics.

Yes, I said that's another factor to be counted (Axl fans), but you have to consider the "haters" as well then.

The difference in margin of error is just 5% between 350 and 1000, so it is not as big as you make it out to be.

The result on metacritic is probably not as accurate as a controlled survey, but it gives a glimpse of the general opinion. (I would say a rating somewhere in the top 50% - between 5/10 and 10/10)

[Rustycage]

Calculating margin of errors between a disorganized poll to an organized poll? FFS. Have fun with that.

[Apollo]

The number of people who signed the list really doesn't mean anything on its own, other than a group of people think that GnR doesn't fit the bill and what it stands for.

The only real way to put this into perspective is to compare it to ALL the other active protests for the festival, as well as comparing it to the numbers on past festival protests.

So we know that roughly 350 people signed the GnR protest.

Can somebody list stats from the other band's that have protest lists against them for the festival, so we can see where GnR ranks compared to them?

Can somebody pull up the numbers from say the last five year's worth of protests, so we can see where GnR's 350 votes rank.

Thanks

[Spirit]

Calculating margin of errors between a disorganized poll to an organized poll? FFS. Have fun with that.

I was talking generaly.. Your original statement was "Also, 340+ people aren't a good sample size of the population. LOL". That's just false.

Also, if you read the last sentence of my last post, I gave this particular "poll" a margin of error of over 30%.

The number of people who signed the list really doesn't mean anything on its own, other than a group of people think that GnR doesn't fit the bill and what it stands for.

The only real way to put this into perspective is to compare it to ALL the other active protests for the festival, as well as comparing it to the numbers on past festival protests.

So we know that roughly 350 people signed the GnR protest.

Can somebody list stats from the other band's that have protest lists against them for the festival, so we can see where GnR ranks compared to them?

Can somebody pull up the numbers from say the last five year's worth of protests, so we can see where GnR's 350 votes rank.

Thanks

I haven't checked, but I don't think it's a usual thing to start a petition against a band appearing at a festival.

There's probably some, only one I can think of is the one asking to remove Nickelback from a half-time show (not a festival, I know). It got over 55,000 signatures. The smaller ones probably didn't get that much press.

If you're eager to compare I suggest you pull up the numbers yourself instead of asking others to do the job for you.

[Roush]

It's cool if you guys dig Chinese.

But come on! Most folks didn't. Get over it, and join us in 2013

[saber_]

It's cool if you guys dig Chinese.

But come on! Most folks didn't. Get over it, and join us in 2013

I think you have CD confused with Libertad.

[Roush]

Sigh...

[saber_]

Either way, you're shit outta luck because no reunion for you! It stings, doesn't it?

But keep repeating yourself over and over. I'm sure you'll accomplish whatever it is you're hoping to accomplish on this board.

[Rustycage]

Calculating margin of errors between a disorganized poll to an organized poll? FFS. Have fun with that.

I was talking generaly.. Your original statement was "Also, 340+ people aren't a good sample size of the population. LOL". That's just false.

Also, if you read the last sentence of my last post, I gave this particular "poll" a margin of error of over 30%.

If I wanted a semantic debate to bore me to sleep, I'd go to MSL's site.

Perhaps I should have said, "350 random people in a disorganized poll is not a good sample size. If it were more people, I would trust the tainted poll a little more since they would have tapped into evenly split opinions by coincidence."

It's cool if you guys dig Chinese.

But come on! Most folks didn't. Get over it, and join us in 2013

I think you have CD confused with Libertad.

Wrong section, Screech.

I don't care for a reunion because they will never be what they once were but boy I would love to see some heads spin and tears flow if they did reunite. The amount of back peddling from certain posters around here would be hilarious.

"Oh, but I liked Slash the whole time!"

[saber_]

Whatever you say mister tylenol whiskey liver.

So, let me see if I understand this: You don't want a reunion... but you would "love to see" the reactions from certain posters on an internet message board? Wow. Just wow.

[Rustycage]

Whatever you say mister tylenol whiskey liver.

So, let me see if I understand this: You don't want a reunion... but you would "love to see" the reactions from certain posters on an internet message board? Wow. Just wow.

Yep. I come here to engage the people, not kiss the band's ass. So I would enjoy watching their responses.

[T.wa.T]

Guaranteed, if the poll was negative towards CD, then it would be used to try and discredit every argument that says otherwise. But since it doesn't, 350 people isn't enough. Because people like David Fricke, don't know what their taking about. Lol

[saber_]

Whatever you say mister tylenol whiskey liver.

So, let me see if I understand this: You don't want a reunion... but you would "love to see" the reactions from certain posters on an internet message board? Wow. Just wow.

Yep. I come here to engage the people, not kiss the band's ass. So I would enjoy watching their responses.

Right because you've already admitted openly that you don't like post-2001 Guns. At least you're honest that you're just coming here to cupcake, not actually discuss the band in any meaningful way. You don't seem to spend much time in the classic Guns sections. This one seems to be your fave. lol

[Rustycage]

I guess you got me there, didn't you? It could be worse. I could pretend to be a GNR fan just because they heard Buckethead do the Star Wars solo and made them crush their Princess Leia doll during the excitement.

[Flayer]

Never mind the sample size, the reason 350 people on MyGNRForum or on that Governor's Ball protest are not a statistically valid sample is because both have an extreme selection bias; the participants in both would almost exclusive be fans of GNR for the former and people who hate GNR for the latter.

[Spirit]

Never mind the sample size, the reason 350 people on MyGNRForum or on that Governor's Ball protest are not a statistically valid sample is because both have an extreme selection bias; the participants in both would almost exclusive be fans of GNR for the former and people who hate GNR for the latter.

The poll for Chinese Democracy was on Metacritic, a general entertainment (music, films, games) review site.

[saber_]

I guess you got me there, didn't you? It could be worse. I could pretend to be a GNR fan just because they heard Buckethead do the Star Wars solo and made them crush their Princess Leia doll during the excitement.

You're the one who said it, mister cirrhosis. Haha, pop a tylenol, it'll make you feel better.

[Rustycage]

Never mind the sample size, the reason 350 people on MyGNRForum or on that Governor's Ball protest are not a statistically valid sample is because both have an extreme selection bias; the participants in both would almost exclusive be fans of GNR for the former and people who hate GNR for the latter.

The poll for Chinese Democracy was on Metacritic, a general entertainment (music, films, games) review site.

And the petition for removing GNR was made by concert goers that represent fans that don't typically like bands like GNR. Trying to endorse those reviews now or something?

I guess you got me there, didn't you? It could be worse. I could pretend to be a GNR fan just because they heard Buckethead do the Star Wars solo and made them crush their Princess Leia doll during the excitement.

You're the one who said it, mister cirrhosis. Haha, pop a tylenol, it'll make you feel better.

LOL wtf.

[Spirit]

Never mind the sample size, the reason 350 people on MyGNRForum or on that Governor's Ball protest are not a statistically valid sample is because both have an extreme selection bias; the participants in both would almost exclusive be fans of GNR for the former and people who hate GNR for the latter.

The poll for Chinese Democracy was on Metacritic, a general entertainment (music, films, games) review site.

And the petition for removing GNR was made by concert goers that represent fans that don't typically like bands like GNR. Trying to endorse those reviews now or something?

Jeez, no. Just made a point that the poll wasn't done on a GN'R fan forum, so the bias wouldn't be quite as strong.

Did you even read what I wrote earlier, I take that Metacritic user poll with a big grain of salt.