Support section announcement: **READ BEFORE POSTING THREADS**

[highvoltage]

Reinforcing the new policy stated in this post, the Support section is to be used for forum suggestions and issues only.

Issues with mod decisions and complaints should be directed to me or UK SUBS through private message. We always take the effort to take time to consider and respond to these messages.

We've mentioned this repeatedly in this section - as a result, people who continue to ignore this rule will be suspended or banned without warning.

EDIT: Just to add, people are welcome to post computer/technical issues in here as well.

[SunnyDRE]

cool.

[Tyler Drama]

Why...? Why can't we have discussions about issues with mod decisions? Why does it have to be private? Sometimes it's good to see that others agree with you and can help you gain support.

[Zint]

Why...? Why can't we have discussions about issues with mod decisions? Why does it have to be private? Sometimes it's good to see that others agree with you and can help you gain support.

The mod team / admins are no longer interested in this section being a battleground.

High requested your concerns be addressed to an admin via pm, thanks.

[bacardimayne]

Why...? Why can't we have discussions about issues with mod decisions? Why does it have to be private? Sometimes it's good to see that others agree with you and can help you gain support.

I agree. Someone on another forum made a pretty good point about the timing of this, with everyone praising everything about the update in the other thread and ignoring this little thing off in the corner. All this rule accomplishes is stopping people from having organized, public discussion about their thoughts on how the mods here are handling things. Why is this a bad thing? Sure, the discussion can get pretty heated, but that's the case for pretty much anything on MyGNR.

[highvoltage]

Why...? Why can't we have discussions about issues with mod decisions? Why does it have to be private? Sometimes it's good to see that others agree with you and can help you gain support.

I agree. Someone on another forum made a pretty good point about the timing of this, with everyone praising everything about the update in the other thread and ignoring this little thing off in the corner. All this rule accomplishes is stopping people from having organized, public discussion about their thoughts on how the mods here are handling things. Why is this a bad thing? Sure, the discussion can get pretty heated, but that's the case for pretty much anything on MyGNR.

It's rarely respectful towards the mods and it's not the way member issues should be handled. If you were in our shoes for a day, you'd probably understand. We have plenty of public, organised discussion about how we're handling things on a regular basis. Mods shouldn't have to put up with members making public complaints about warnings for attention.

Subsy and I have never been anything less than reasonable with people, and when people raise issues respectfully in private, they're much more likely to get a favourable outcome anyway. If a mod's stepped over the line (we/they do, we're not perfect), it's better for them that we overturn a decision privately. We don't need everyone weighing in with an opinion when they don't know the full story.

[Tyler Drama]

Why...? Why can't we have discussions about issues with mod decisions? Why does it have to be private? Sometimes it's good to see that others agree with you and can help you gain support.

I agree. Someone on another forum made a pretty good point about the timing of this, with everyone praising everything about the update in the other thread and ignoring this little thing off in the corner. All this rule accomplishes is stopping people from having organized, public discussion about their thoughts on how the mods here are handling things. Why is this a bad thing? Sure, the discussion can get pretty heated, but that's the case for pretty much anything on MyGNR.

Exactly.

[volcano62]

I think if there is issues with the forum and/or mods, it should be discussed publically.

There is nothing to be ashamed of.

[Powerage5]

I think if there is issues with the forum and/or mods, it should be discussed publically.

There is nothing to be ashamed of.

there is when someone makes a thread titled "will so-and-so have the mod powers revoked?" Because they're unhappy they got a warning point they deserved. That's not a discussion, it's an immature reaction.

[Zint]

Why...? Why can't we have discussions about issues with mod decisions? Why does it have to be private? Sometimes it's good to see that others agree with you and can help you gain support.

I agree. Someone on another forum made a pretty good point about the timing of this, with everyone praising everything about the update in the other thread and ignoring this little thing off in the corner. All this rule accomplishes is stopping people from having organized, public discussion about their thoughts on how the mods here are handling things. Why is this a bad thing? Sure, the discussion can get pretty heated, but that's the case for pretty much anything on MyGNR.

It's rarely respectful towards the mods and it's not the way member issues should be handled. If you were in our shoes for a day, you'd probably understand. We have plenty of public, organised discussion about how we're handling things on a regular basis. Mods shouldn't have to put up with members making public complaints about warnings for attention.

Subsy and I have never been anything less than reasonable with people, and when people raise issues respectfully in private, they're much more likely to get a favourable outcome anyway. If a mod's stepped over the line (we/they do, we're not perfect), it's better for them that we overturn a decision privately. We don't need everyone weighing in with an opinion when they don't know the full story.

Exactly.

[username]

I think if there is issues with the forum and/or mods, it should be discussed publically.

There is nothing to be ashamed of.

there is when someone makes a thread titled "will so-and-so have the mod powers revoked?" Because they're unhappy they got a warning point they deserved. That's not a discussion, it's an immature reaction.

Agreed with all of that. I do understand the other point of view as well though. Sometimes things another member (mod or no mod) does are so horribly annoying that you feel like addressing it publicly might show that a lot of people (who may not send PM's to a mod about it) agree and experience the same annoyance. But you would have to be civil about it. You should be able to point out the behavior that you disagree with. The person doing it might be an example, but it shouldn't be a personal attack. Very thin line there though! I also prefer doing it publicly because it's, well, public. Seems like the PM's are more behind someone's back. If I think someone is behaving like an asshole, it's only fair to let him or her know openly.

I also think it should be allowed to publicly state that you think there should be a rule for (or against) something, or that a current rule isn't sufficient. But these discussions would have to be civil and not played against certain individuals. Discuss the rule, but don't make it about a specific person.

It'd be nice if both those things would be possible, but I also think it's proved nearly impossible to have these discussions in a civil manner. Which is a shame.

Edited July 30, 2013 by username

[volcano62]

I think if there is issues with the forum and/or mods, it should be discussed publically.

There is nothing to be ashamed of.

there is when someone makes a thread titled "will so-and-so have the mod powers revoked?" Because they're unhappy they got a warning point they deserved. That's not a discussion, it's an immature reaction.

You've got a personal problem with me dude...let it go.....

[Estranged Reality]

Why...? Why can't we have discussions about issues with mod decisions? Why does it have to be private? Sometimes it's good to see that others agree with you and can help you gain support.

I agree. Someone on another forum made a pretty good point about the timing of this, with everyone praising everything about the update in the other thread and ignoring this little thing off in the corner. All this rule accomplishes is stopping people from having organized, public discussion about their thoughts on how the mods here are handling things. Why is this a bad thing? Sure, the discussion can get pretty heated, but that's the case for pretty much anything on MyGNR.

It wasn't timed to be deliberately hidden. I can take a good guess who said that, but it's not what our intent was. It was just part of the overall update. This is something we've been discussing for a while.

First of all, back in the old days when the forum was more strictly enforced, they had the same rules. Topics about moderators' decisions were never allowed. We didn't want to go back to that strict enforcement with this section, but the problem with people creating threads in this section to criticize moderators was that it was rarely done by people actually seeking a constructive, reasonable discourse. Instead, it was attention-seeking, immature calls to have moderator statuses revoked, outright insulting and basically harassing certain moderators (putting their names in the topic titles and labeling them names), and then letting people pile on top of that for attention, like a big hate-filled gang bang. I don't think I ever saw a thread started with good intent, or from anyone who had actually contacted a moderator in private first. No good faith efforts to resolve differences. (Even when it happened to me, I remember being taken aback, because I wasn't even aware of an issue existing with the user in question before seeing him call me a piece of shit, or whatever it was that was said.) It was more like little kids who had been scolded and, instead of having the maturity to discuss the matter humanely and resolve it in such a manner -- which is what we hoped could be done in this section -- simply trying to gather all the other misbehaving kids together and trying to raise hell. It's that deindividuation group phenomenon in action on a small little forum.

We're not assholes or out to be jerks to anyone, so if there's a legitimate issue with moderating, messaging the moderator responsible will likely resolve the issue quickly - and you'll get a more decent, reasonable response since we won't feel like you're just bashing us openly on the forum without addressing it directly to us first. Whatever comments you have will, if anything, be taken more earnestly than if you'd bypassed us straight away and gone right to the Support forum. That's just common decency, and we didn't think it was going to be necessary to implement a rule about it, but people abused the privilege of being able to create topics here, making a hostile environment, and I think over time it really just wore on us and made us realize that it's far more effective to force people to resolve issues privately.

[username]

Oh! One more question. In the past the Support section was also sort of used for general computer support. Is that still allowed? Or is it really just forum/avatar/sig support?

[Estranged Reality]

I'm just speaking for myself, but I feel this should probably should be kept strictly for forum-related issues. I would imagine general computer issues not related to the forum are better for Anything Goes moving forward.

[Bobbo]

But can't you just have a happy medium like you do with criticism regarding Axl and co in the main section? Having constructive, uncensored criticism without having "Beta's a cunt" and "Slash has moobs lol", etc? It doesn't necessarily have to be black or white.

I think there's a way where we can voice, and have public criticism of the mods without it turning petty and ugly. There's a difference between "I think I was treated unfairly, and here's why" and "Estranged Reality (just using you as an example) is a douche nozzle who abuses power and should have his position removed, blah blah". And the others who feel similar, or who feel something similar has happened to them in the same vain and can also voice their constructive criticism to get to the root of the problem. All you guys would have to do is draw that line.

[Ali]

But can't you just have a happy medium like you do with criticism regarding Axl and co in the main section? Having constructive, uncensored criticism without having "Beta's a cunt" and "Slash has moobs lol", etc? It doesn't necessarily have to be black or white.

I think there's a way where we can voice, and have public criticism of the mods without it turning petty and ugly. There's a difference between "I think I was treated unfairly, and here's why" and "Estranged Reality (just using you as an example) is a douche nozzle who abuses power and should have his position removed, blah blah". And the others who feel similar, or who feel something similar has happened to them in the same vain and can also voice their constructive criticism to get to the root of the problem. All you guys would have to do is draw that line.

That sounds like an ideal notion, but, unfortunately, IMO, too many users (not all) have allowed things to turn petty and ugly when having a disagreement. I think this may be even more likely when someone is upset about being reprimanded and they have the safety net of their keyboard and anonymity covering them. They are less likely to maintain some modicum of polite manners and discuss things in a civil manner like you mentioned.

Ali

[Patience 4 Axl]

But can't you just have a happy medium like you do with criticism regarding Axl and co in the main section? Having constructive, uncensored criticism without having "Beta's a cunt" and "Slash has moobs lol", etc? It doesn't necessarily have to be black or white.

I think there's a way where we can voice, and have public criticism of the mods without it turning petty and ugly. There's a difference between "I think I was treated unfairly, and here's why" and "Estranged Reality (just using you as an example) is a douche nozzle who abuses power and should have his position removed, blah blah". And the others who feel similar, or who feel something similar has happened to them in the same vain and can also voice their constructive criticism to get to the root of the problem. All you guys would have to do is draw that line.

That sounds like an ideal notion, but, unfortunately, IMO, too many users (not all) have allowed things to turn petty and ugly when having a disagreement. I think this may be even more likely when someone is upset about being reprimanded and they have the safety net of their keyboard and anonymity covering them. They are less likely to maintain some modicum of polite manners and discuss things in a civil manner like you mentioned.

Ali

So if they can't refrain from expressing themselves in a more respectful manner, they should lose their posting privileges. If a couple of people get banned for aggressively criticizing a mod, or any other member for that matter, you'll see how quickly the behavior will stop.

I have to admit I do like Bobbo's suggestion as well. Mods are always saying how overwhelmed they are with trying to address all the pm's they receive, having the ability for members to discuss concerns on the forum could possibly eliminate some of that work. Obviously certain issues should still remain private, but if it's a more general problem, it's nice to know that perhaps other members also share those same concerns, and maybe even try to work together to come to some sort of agreeable resolution. Just from my own perspective, I do think removing the ability for members to openly discuss certain issues also takes away some of the transparency that was mentioned when the original changes took place.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Patience 4 Axl

[Bobbo]

But can't you just have a happy medium like you do with criticism regarding Axl and co in the main section? Having constructive, uncensored criticism without having "Beta's a cunt" and "Slash has moobs lol", etc? It doesn't necessarily have to be black or white.

I think there's a way where we can voice, and have public criticism of the mods without it turning petty and ugly. There's a difference between "I think I was treated unfairly, and here's why" and "Estranged Reality (just using you as an example) is a douche nozzle who abuses power and should have his position removed, blah blah". And the others who feel similar, or who feel something similar has happened to them in the same vain and can also voice their constructive criticism to get to the root of the problem. All you guys would have to do is draw that line.

That sounds like an ideal notion, but, unfortunately, IMO, too many users (not all) have allowed things to turn petty and ugly when having a disagreement. I think this may be even more likely when someone is upset about being reprimanded and they have the safety net of their keyboard and anonymity covering them. They are less likely to maintain some modicum of polite manners and discuss things in a civil manner like you mentioned.

Ali

So if they can't refrain from expressing themselves in a more respectful manner, they should lose their posting privileges. If a couple of people get banned for aggressively criticizing a mod, or any other member for that matter, you'll see how quickly the behavior will stop.

I have to admit I do like Bobbo's suggestion as well. Mods are always saying how overwhelmed they are with trying to address all the pm's they receive, having the ability for members to discuss concerns on the forum could possibly eliminate some of that work. Obviously certain issues should still remain private, but if it's a more general problem, it's nice to know that perhaps other members also share those same concerns, and maybe even try to work together to come to some sort of agreeable resolution. Just from my own perspective, I do think removing the ability for members to openly discuss certain issues also takes away some of the transparency that was mentioned when the original changes took place.

Exactly.

[Tyler Drama]

But can't you just have a happy medium like you do with criticism regarding Axl and co in the main section? Having constructive, uncensored criticism without having "Beta's a cunt" and "Slash has moobs lol", etc? It doesn't necessarily have to be black or white.

I think there's a way where we can voice, and have public criticism of the mods without it turning petty and ugly. There's a difference between "I think I was treated unfairly, and here's why" and "Estranged Reality (just using you as an example) is a douche nozzle who abuses power and should have his position removed, blah blah". And the others who feel similar, or who feel something similar has happened to them in the same vain and can also voice their constructive criticism to get to the root of the problem. All you guys would have to do is draw that line.

That sounds like an ideal notion, but, unfortunately, IMO, too many users (not all) have allowed things to turn petty and ugly when having a disagreement. I think this may be even more likely when someone is upset about being reprimanded and they have the safety net of their keyboard and anonymity covering them. They are less likely to maintain some modicum of polite manners and discuss things in a civil manner like you mentioned.

Ali

So if they can't refrain from expressing themselves in a more respectful manner, they should lose their posting privileges. If a couple of people get banned for aggressively criticizing a mod, or any other member for that matter, you'll see how quickly the behavior will stop.

I have to admit I do like Bobbo's suggestion as well. Mods are always saying how overwhelmed they are with trying to address all the pm's they receive, having the ability for members to discuss concerns on the forum could possibly eliminate some of that work. Obviously certain issues should still remain private, but if it's a more general problem, it's nice to know that perhaps other members also share those same concerns, and maybe even try to work together to come to some sort of agreeable resolution. Just from my own perspective, I do think removing the ability for members to openly discuss certain issues also takes away some of the transparency that was mentioned when the original changes took place.

Exactly.

[Estranged Reality]

That sounds like an ideal notion, but, unfortunately, IMO, too many users (not all) have allowed things to turn petty and ugly when having a disagreement. I think this may be even more likely when someone is upset about being reprimanded and they have the safety net of their keyboard and anonymity covering them. They are less likely to maintain some modicum of polite manners and discuss things in a civil manner like you mentioned.

Unfortunately, this has proven to be the case quite a few times.

99% of the (honestly, very few) extended issues we have -- the ones where users are reprimanded and try to challenge the decision -- are resolved amicably, usually in private. It's my honest opinion that most people who create topics in Support in regards to moderating decisions are doing so for attention, because they're pissed, and want to rally the troops together to tell us to fuck off, rather than handle the situation maturely. They're not REALLY interested in resolving an issue, just interested in raising hell over it. Why else would you go directly to creating a topic rather than trying to reach a resolution with the person you have an issue with? Just hypothetically, can you imagine a scenario where it would make more sense to avoid discussing a matter with the moderator in question, and creating a thread for it instead?

Bottom line, it just leads to potential for unnecessary drama.

So if they can't refrain from expressing themselves in a more respectful manner, they should lose their posting privileges. If a couple of people get banned for aggressively criticizing a mod, or any other member for that matter, you'll see how quickly the behavior will stop.

That's all well and good to say, but imagine the scenario: someone makes a thread bashing us in Support in a tasteless manner, and the user is immediately suspended from posting. We'd have people saying we're promoting censorship, blah blah blah.

"You took away his posting rights because he challenged your decision."

Well, no, we did it because he was being a dick! But that's not how it would look to everyone, and, again: unnecessary drama. I'd rather that person just discuss the issue with me as a person, one-on-one. The words "in private" make it sound like we just want it hidden from everyone, but that's not it: it's the idea of having a one-on-one discussion where both parties are going to act more civil, more reasonable and neither has ulterior motives. Ali actually summed it up quite succinctly.

We've had quite a few scenarios where people just kind of enjoy ganging up all at once, and this never used to happen when stricter rules were enforced on the forum.

If a member has an issue with a moderating decision, contact the moderator who made the call and attempt to resolve it.

If it isn't resolved, contact an admin. As has happened in the past, admins will sometimes review decisions made by mods and overturn them. We're not all just trying to cover each other's mistakes up. If we see things differently we'll voice our concerns. We have a moderating forum where we discuss issues taken, and there isn't always agreement, and sometimes compromises are made or decisions reversed.

[Zint]

Why...? Why can't we have discussions about issues with mod decisions? Why does it have to be private? Sometimes it's good to see that others agree with you and can help you gain support.

I agree. Someone on another forum made a pretty good point about the timing of this, with everyone praising everything about the update in the other thread and ignoring this little thing off in the corner. All this rule accomplishes is stopping people from having organized, public discussion about their thoughts on how the mods here are handling things. Why is this a bad thing? Sure, the discussion can get pretty heated, but that's the case for pretty much anything on MyGNR.

It wasn't timed to be deliberately hidden. I can take a good guess who said that, but it's not what our intent was. It was just part of the overall update. This is something we've been discussing for a while.

First of all, back in the old days when the forum was more strictly enforced, they had the same rules. Topics about moderators' decisions were never allowed. We didn't want to go back to that strict enforcement with this section, but the problem with people creating threads in this section to criticize moderators was that it was rarely done by people actually seeking a constructive, reasonable discourse. Instead, it was attention-seeking, immature calls to have moderator statuses revoked, outright insulting and basically harassing certain moderators (putting their names in the topic titles and labeling them names), and then letting people pile on top of that for attention, like a big hate-filled gang bang. I don't think I ever saw a thread started with good intent, or from anyone who had actually contacted a moderator in private first. No good faith efforts to resolve differences. (Even when it happened to me, I remember being taken aback, because I wasn't even aware of an issue existing with the user in question before seeing him call me a piece of shit, or whatever it was that was said.) It was more like little kids who had been scolded and, instead of having the maturity to discuss the matter humanely and resolve it in such a manner -- which is what we hoped could be done in this section -- simply trying to gather all the other misbehaving kids together and trying to raise hell. It's that deindividuation group phenomenon in action on a small little forum.

We're not assholes or out to be jerks to anyone, so if there's a legitimate issue with moderating, messaging the moderator responsible will likely resolve the issue quickly - and you'll get a more decent, reasonable response since we won't feel like you're just bashing us openly on the forum without addressing it directly to us first. Whatever comments you have will, if anything, be taken more earnestly than if you'd bypassed us straight away and gone right to the Support forum. That's just common decency, and we didn't think it was going to be necessary to implement a rule about it, but people abused the privilege of being able to create topics here, making a hostile environment, and I think over time it really just wore on us and made us realize that it's far more effective to force people to resolve issues privately.

Couldn't agree more ER. Well stated.

Definitve response.

[Ali]

But can't you just have a happy medium like you do with criticism regarding Axl and co in the main section? Having constructive, uncensored criticism without having "Beta's a cunt" and "Slash has moobs lol", etc? It doesn't necessarily have to be black or white.

I think there's a way where we can voice, and have public criticism of the mods without it turning petty and ugly. There's a difference between "I think I was treated unfairly, and here's why" and "Estranged Reality (just using you as an example) is a douche nozzle who abuses power and should have his position removed, blah blah". And the others who feel similar, or who feel something similar has happened to them in the same vain and can also voice their constructive criticism to get to the root of the problem. All you guys would have to do is draw that line.

That sounds like an ideal notion, but, unfortunately, IMO, too many users (not all) have allowed things to turn petty and ugly when having a disagreement. I think this may be even more likely when someone is upset about being reprimanded and they have the safety net of their keyboard and anonymity covering them. They are less likely to maintain some modicum of polite manners and discuss things in a civil manner like you mentioned.

Ali

So if they can't refrain from expressing themselves in a more respectful manner, they should lose their posting privileges. If a couple of people get banned for aggressively criticizing a mod, or any other member for that matter, you'll see how quickly the behavior will stop.

I have to admit I do like Bobbo's suggestion as well. Mods are always saying how overwhelmed they are with trying to address all the pm's they receive, having the ability for members to discuss concerns on the forum could possibly eliminate some of that work. Obviously certain issues should still remain private, but if it's a more general problem, it's nice to know that perhaps other members also share those same concerns, and maybe even try to work together to come to some sort of agreeable resolution. Just from my own perspective, I do think removing the ability for members to openly discuss certain issues also takes away some of the transparency that was mentioned when the original changes took place.

Here's the problem I see with this situation. As ER stated, when someone makes a public thread complaining about a reprimand, they are already pissed off and are looking to publicly flog the mods, either out of anger and resentment, a desire to generate support from the rest of the user base, or both. The situation can be loaded with anger and resentment from the person who has been reprimanded, and then I wouldn't blame the mods if they get pissed because someone made a thread or post to publicly flog them. No one likes it when someone tries to show you up publicly. So, you have tension and frustration on both sides because of choosing to handle the situation in public vs. private venue. How likely is it in that scenario that people will opt to maintain civility?

IMO the situation is too loaded to begin with that the likelihood of a civil discussion of a reprimand is much lower when brought to an open forum, public discussion as opposed to being handled via PM. I would agree that is in large part due to the underlying motivations being different to begin with if you bring up an issue with a reprimand publicly vs. privately.

Ali

Edited July 31, 2013 by Ali

[Patience 4 Axl]

I completely understand the reasoning behind the mods/admins not wanting to do it. I've personally never had an issue with any of the mods here ever, besides Madison, so my opinion on the matter was unbiased.

I've seen several members complain about responses they've received in pm's and thought this could avoid the heresay. There's nothing more transparent than discussing issues in the open forum. But, no doubt these discussions have the potential to become heated, so I can see why that would want to be avoided.

I'm fine with whatever decision is made. It was just a suggestion.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Patience 4 Axl

[Redhead74]

Why...? Why can't we have discussions about issues with mod decisions? Why does it have to be private? Sometimes it's good to see that others agree with you and can help you gain support.

I agree. Someone on another forum made a pretty good point about the timing of this, with everyone praising everything about the update in the other thread and ignoring this little thing off in the corner. All this rule accomplishes is stopping people from having organized, public discussion about their thoughts on how the mods here are handling things. Why is this a bad thing? Sure, the discussion can get pretty heated, but that's the case for pretty much anything on MyGNR.

I'm sure if the threads/complaints were warranted and legit and not juvenile bickerings the mods would see it differently. In my time here I've always found them to be pretty liberal and I have to agree that the support section has recently had lots of threads about personal arguments or disagreements. It's kinda pathetic and clearly wasting a lot of people's time.

I don't really see why PMs should be a problem. My guess is that some people don't actually want to resolve issues but stir the pot.