Do you download music illegally?

[ITG]

None of you upload? Fucking ingrates.

[bran]

Yes, but if I like what I hear I buy the album.

Is this true for everyone that says it though? I used to justify downloading with this argument, but I would have bought less than half the albums I downloaded and liked in the end.

it is for me, every album i downloaded and liked i have bought. collecting music has been my main hobby since i was a kid if i dont like the album i download, i delete it and never care to listen to it again.

[Black Sabbath]

I do and if it's worthy of it then I'll buy the physical CD.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Culture shouldn't be restricted to those who have more money and in that aspect Internet was a bless.

Despite being a downloading motherfucker myself to some extent (lol, just joking RIAA, we cool) I think that's a bit too easy isn't it? "I have less money but I have the right to this just the same". That attitude would work if this "culture" you speak of was globally funded and therefor the artist would get eat food and pay bills regardless of whether you pay for your "culture". But reality isn't like that. Reality isn't like that at all though. I think it's a bit shortsighted what you're saying.

Yes, I know what you mean but it was the communist in me talking in there. I honestly think culture should be kind of a "human right". It's one of the foundations of any good society and it's one of the best ways to achieve some equality... but the authors have their rights too and they deserve their money for their work as anybody else. I said I know it's wrong, it was more a general thought.

I really really really really like you

[classicrawker]

I do. Movies and TV too.

I spent most of my life getting fleeced by the record labels and movie studios. Replacing all my VHS tapes with DVDs and then Blu-Rays. Paying $15 for a CD that costs pennies to produce. Fuck 'em.

I support my favorite artists by buying their CDs and merchandise and especially by paying full price for their concert tickets. But I'm not giving any more of my money to those corporations.

Spot on mate, fuck em. Anything that will contribute to the collapse of the record or movie industry as they stand, i'm all for it, fuck em. They've had more than my fuckin' fair share out of me for sub-standard product...and the only results of it was a greedy industry more into destroying the art form than enhancing it. $15 is still cheap mate, i remember sometimes hard to find albums would come out and i'd have to get the train to the HMV in Oxford street and THEN pay like...18.99, 20.99 for a fuckin' CD...and thats in pounds.

So yeah, bollocks to em, rob em all day long, cunts.

And how about the artists whose work your stealing without paying for it? fuck them as well?

And you wonder why concert ticket prices have gotten so expensive............

And s far as movies go you do realize that if enough people download without paying and movie studios stop making a profit they will stop making big budget movies we all love to discuss here right?

Never understood the mentality of people who don't think illegal downloading is stealing just becasue it is not a physical product.....................

Edited October 24, 2013 by classicrawker

[Guest Len B'stard]

I do. Movies and TV too.

I spent most of my life getting fleeced by the record labels and movie studios. Replacing all my VHS tapes with DVDs and then Blu-Rays. Paying $15 for a CD that costs pennies to produce. Fuck 'em.

I support my favorite artists by buying their CDs and merchandise and especially by paying full price for their concert tickets. But I'm not giving any more of my money to those corporations.

Spot on mate, fuck em. Anything that will contribute to the collapse of the record or movie industry as they stand, i'm all for it, fuck em. They've had more than my fuckin' fair share out of me for sub-standard product...and the only results of it was a greedy industry more into destroying the art form than enhancing it. $15 is still cheap mate, i remember sometimes hard to find albums would come out and i'd have to get the train to the HMV in Oxford street and THEN pay like...18.99, 20.99 for a fuckin' CD...and thats in pounds.

So yeah, bollocks to em, rob em all day long, cunts.

And how about the artists whose work your stealing without paying for it? fuck them as well?

And you wonder why concert ticket prices have gotten so expensive............

Yeah, pretty much, fuck em. Fuck them the hardest of all because they're the fat lazy greedy complacent cunts that make music and allow CDs to be sold to people at extortionate prices, whoose gigs were expensive WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY before the download revolution, fuck em for even entering into an ostensibly artistic concern with dollar signs in their eyes.

If it was ever possible to make this fuckin' industry totally collapse, i'm ruin it, obliterate it, til there's nothing to it, the people that played music then would be the ones who truly were fuckin' artists and did it just to do it...and i reckon music would be all the more better off for it. The best bands in the worlds are always ones that looked to money second.

I swear someone just drove by my office playing Rudie Can't Fail by The Clash just then Thats fuckin' God tryna tell us both something

The way you talk classicrawker you'd think music and commerce are indivisible, music has been a commercial concern for like...not very long at all, i'm talkin' like from the 50s onwards...it existed before then as well and it'll exist long after there is no record companys or record industry or whatever, thats beauty of it, music is free.

What you're basically saying it's alright to rob the man on the street cuz he's annonymous but the big rockstars in their ivory towers, oh poor them, how hard up they must be now cuz i decided to download fuckin' albums, last i saw they're all still living in mansions in Malibu or whatever and the people downloading their music are in 3 bed semi's or council estates, you'll excuse me if i don't weep just yet.

Having said that i bought and paid for PiL's album. And Noel Gallaghers High Flying Birds. I mean you're talking to someone who has probably bought upwards of a couple of thousand CDs and tapes in my short time on this planet, fuck me when i was a lad i used to spend my school dinner money on this shit, they've had more than their share off of me.

Edited October 24, 2013 by sugaraylen

[classicrawker]

Yeah, pretty much, fuck em. Fuck them the hardest of all because they're the fat lazy greedy complacent cunts that make music and allow CDs to be sold to people at extortionate prices, whoose gigs were expensive WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY before the download revolution, fuck em for even entering into an ostensibly artistic concern with dollar signs in their eyes.

They are greedy because they want to make money off of their talent? really? your logic baffles me as nobody is holding a gun to your head to buy their music or go to their concerts so using this to justify stealing from them is just an excuse to make you feel better about what you are doing which is ...well stealing......

If it was ever possible to make this fuckin' industry totally collapse, i'm ruin it, obliterate it, til there's nothing to it, the people that played music then would be the ones who truly were fuckin' artists and did it just to do it...and i reckon music would be all the more better off for it. The best bands in the worlds are always ones that looked to money second.

I swear someone just drove by my office playing Rudie Can't Fail by The Clash just then Thats fuckin' God tryna tell us both something

The way you talk classicrawker you'd think music and commerce are indivisible, music has been a commercial concern for like...not very long at all, i'm talkin' like from the 50s onwards...it existed before then as well and it'll exist long after there is no record companys or record industry or whatever, thats beauty of it, music is free.

I never said music and commerce were not connected only that the musican and record companies are puttig out a product that you are under no obligation to buy. And music is not free mate unless the musician decides to give it away for free. It is a product just like every other product you can buy. The oil companies are some of the biggest exploiters in the world so why don't you steal their gas? same thing.........

What you're basically saying it's alright to rob the man on the street cuz he's annonymous but the big rockstars in their ivory towers, oh poor them, how hard up they must be now cuz i decided to download fuckin' albums, last i saw they're all still living in mansions in Malibu or whatever and the people downloading their music are in 3 bed semi's or council estates, you'll excuse me if i don't weep just yet.

Nobody is robbing the man on the street because music is a luxury item that you don't need to survive and nobody is forcing you to buy it. Don't like the price then don't buy it...you will survive just fine........if you were talking about food or fuel to heat your house that you need to survive then you might have a point but you don't need music to survive.

Having said that i bought and paid for PiL's album. And Noel Gallaghers High Flying Birds. I mean you're talking to someone who has probably bought upwards of a couple of thousand CDs and tapes in my short time on this planet, fuck me when i was a lad i used to spend my school dinner money on this shit, they've had more than their share off of me.

And why did you buy those CD's and not just download them? And past purchases do not justify stealing their music now because you feel you have paid enough in your life so now their product should be free.....I have bought over 100,000 liters of over priced petrol in my life and oil companies make record profits every year so based on your logic it should be o.k. for me to steal gas anytime I need a fill up now because I was ripped off all these years yes?

You're a smart guy Lenny but no matter how you spin it downloading without paying the artist is stealing his work...........

[magisme]

Call it stealing. Call it baby raping for all I care. Just know that I'll be out raping babies on a daily basis. Fuck em all.

[classicrawker]

Call it stealing. Call it baby raping for all I care. Just know that I'll be out raping babies on a daily basis. Fuck em all.

And how do you justify your stealing of the musicians product?

[Guest Len B'stard]

They are greedy because they want to make money off of their talent? really? your logic baffles me as nobody is holding a gun to your head to buy their music or go to their concerts so using this to justify stealing from them is just an excuse to make you feel better about what you are doing which is ...well stealing......

Was that what i said? It wasn't, was it? It's gonna be a very long convo if you don't reply to what was actually said. They are greedy because they pair an unfair price for an item that isn't of the value therein. This is exemplified by the out of whack profit margins. I mean these guys don't just break even y'know, we're talking about waaaaaaaaaaaaay of the chart levels of profit that come from selling something like a CD that is worth like 3 quid to make for 20, i'm not gonna with numbers, how many percent profit is that? No nobodys holding a gun to my head to buy their music or go to their concerts, which is why i don't. I don't need to be made to feel better about stealing from them or gloss over it, was my initial post unclear? I am an advocate of robbing them. Is that clear enough? Robbing them blind because i think they deserve to be robbed, fuck em.

I never said music and commerce were not connected only that the musican and record companies are puttig out a product that you are under no obligation to buy.

Right...and i don't. Not unless i feel like it. PiL being an example, self financed, self released, I happily paid money for that.

And music is not free mate unless the musician decides to give it away for free. It is a product just like every other product you can buy. The oil companies are some of the biggest exploiters in the world so why don't you steal their gas? same thing.........

I look at it the other way, it's no longer free because people decided to put a price on it. And i don't steal petrol cuz i don't drive and believe me if there was a way i could i'd do it.

Nobody is robbing the man on the street because music is a luxury item that you don't need to survive and nobody is forcing you to buy it. Don't like the price then don't buy it...you will survive just fine........if you were talking about food or fuel to heat your house that you need to survive then you might have a point but you don't need music to survive.

So basically what you're saying is it's alright to charge extortinate prices for anything that isn't a living essential?

And why did you buy those CD's and not just download them? And past purchases do not justify stealing their music now because you feel you have paid enough in your life so now their product should be free.....I have bought over 100,000 liters of over priced petrol in my life and oil companies make record profits every year so based on your logic it should be o.k. for me to steal gas anytime I need a fill up now because I was ripped off all these years yes?

Because when i was a lad there was no such thing but even then if i couldn't get an album and i wanted it i would get it some way or another, borrow it off a mate and copy it, borrow it from the library and copy it, just any way i could think of. No, i feel i have been ripped off enough in my life to warrant supporting what is a fundamentally corrupt system i.e. record companies etc. Am i being unclear here, i want them to collapse, i want them to fall to bits, i wanna see a world where there is no record industry, thats the way i feel about popular music, i think it needs to basically just be burned down to the ground, all of it, because it is fundamentally corrupt and seeks to destroy creativity, demoralise true artists and turn music into 'a product' as you were saying earlier.

In terms of justice? Yes, if you've been ripped off for petrol over the years then yes, it would be just for you to be compensated for that on some level, fuck yes.

You're a smart guy Lenny but no matter how you spin it downloading without paying the artist is stealing his work...........

I know it is, thats whats so good about it. Honestly, i've reached a point where i actually don't really even care about music like i used to, not even really into it, especially new music, literally nothing, no new band has come out in over a decade where i stopped and went 'fuck me, thats brilliant', nothing i see in popular culture or popular music makes me stand up and take notice, it's all shite the lot of it, which is why you can look at every album on my iphone right now they're all downloaded off the net and they're all pretty old and they're all ones i bought and paid for at some point in my life, every last one...and my phone memorys full so it ain't just a couple.

Honestly, the industry and the whole set up has demoralised and robbed me of my love for music to a point, it's increasingly (at least in terms of popular music) a silly and ridiculous enterprise to me now but yeah, what i get these days i download for free.

I was skint for most of my life as a kid, i couldn't've afforded an album ever were it not for like, markets selling second hand ones for 3.99 on tape and that, what you are proposing basically is that only middle class kids whoose mumsies and dadsies give them pocket money are the only ones that have a right to grow up having music to listen to and be able to participate in this kinda stuff, lets have it right here, this ain't stealing the last loaf out of the soup kitchen so Mr McGregor and his three homeless kids starve to death, it's downloading a fuckin' album and if Mick Jagger is hard up for a place to stay tonight cuz i got Steel Wheels for free off Utorrent he can come kip round mine until he's sorted himself a place to stay, now i can't say fairer than that

[Amir]

So basically what you're saying is it's alright to charge extortinate prices for anything that isn't a living essential?

By that logic, you should be able to buy an Aston Martin for cheap.

[Guest Len B'stard]

So basically what you're saying is it's alright to charge extortinate prices for anything that isn't a living essential?

By that logic, you should be able to buy an Aston Martin for cheap.

The profit margins involved are not even remotely comparable. Also, with an Aston, quality is guaranteed, so if every album out there was a total 10 out of 10 Roses debut, Nevermind the Bollocks, Raw Power level of exellence THEN that analogy'd stand. You are not being ripped off when you pay for an Aston, you are getting something that is fuckin' proper high quality. Having said that your analogy is useful inasmuch as it highlights the distinction i was making earlier that music cannot be treated like a product or a commodity, there are fundamental things about it that seperate it from being considered on the same level as a car or a watch or something.

Edited October 24, 2013 by sugaraylen

[Amir]

The problem with stuff like films and music, as you pointed out, is the inability to get your money back if you think it's rubbish (apart from at Fopp where they had that Suck It and See deal). Wish I hadn't paid £15 to see Man of Steel in pointless 3D...

I do think you should be able to listen to a song/album at least once for free before you buy it, it's like test-driving the Aston Martin.

[Guest Len B'stard]

I will say this though, i'll pay for decent music, music that i wanna hear more of the like of (not identical copies necessarily i mean like, just good shit), the day there are bands like The Clash, The Roses, The Pistols and them out there i'll be first in line with my few quid, just like i always was but as for now, fuck em. Don't even hear anything good anymore to download or buy anyway. I think maybe thats whats makin me sick of music, as good as The Clash are, there's only so many hundreds of thousands of times i can listen to em, i'm 30 years old i got into that band in my early teens, the boy needs something new.

[Amir]

Could be that illegal downloading has meant more cack, though. Labels are more hesitant to invest in albums and instead want to churn out pop singles and make millions off The X Factor and the like. Not that there wasn't cack before, but labels saw the value in investing in something like Led Zeppelin for a few albums or so.

Whether you like the music or not, I think it's pretty sad we'll never get another Chinese Democracy, i.e. an album where an artist is given millions by the label to create what they want.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Could be that illegal downloading has meant more cack, though. Labels are more hesitant to invest in albums and instead want to churn out pop singles and make millions off The X Factor and the like. Not that there wasn't cack before, but labels saw the value in investing in something like Led Zeppelin for a few albums or so.

Whether you like the music or not, I think it's pretty sad we'll never get another Chinese Democracy, i.e. an album where an artist is given millions by the label to create what they want.

The millions were sort of wasted though weren't they cuz you could easily reproduce that album without millions. And music quality had plummeted long before downloading put anything remotely resembling a dent in the industry and its mostly to do with record companies making life hard for being that were being truly creative or trying to push the boat out and instead invested heavily in carbon copy cookie cutter crap. Cut to 10 years later and no one even appears to be trying to push the boat out anymore...or worse still, no even seems to want to or even think it's particularly a good thing cuz hey, gotta go where the money is right?

[Amir]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/arts-entertainment/youth-benefits-cuts-would-cause-electro-swing-2013100380043

Guardian had an article a while back about how there's an increasing majority of British musicians who come from public schools (translation for non-Brits: in the UK the term "public schools" is used to refer to a select group of the most expensive private schools, i.e. Eton where Princes William and Harry went).

[Guest Len B'stard]

And yknow why? Cuz that kinda music has, as ive been saying for ages now, has been made so remote from the working classes that its not relevant to them. Plenty of electronic hip hop based kind of music coming from non-public school toffs though.

[classicrawker]

bear

They are greedy because they want to make money off of their talent? really? your logic baffles me as nobody is holding a gun to your head to buy their music or go to their concerts so using this to justify stealing from them is just an excuse to make you feel better about what you are doing which is ...well stealing......

Was that what i said? It wasn't, was it? It's gonna be a very long convo if you don't reply to what was actually said. They are greedy because they pair an unfair price for an item that isn't of the value therein. This is exemplified by the out of whack profit margins. I mean these guys don't just break even y'know, we're talking about waaaaaaaaaaaaay of the chart levels of profit that come from selling something like a CD that is worth like 3 quid to make for 20, i'm not gonna with numbers, how many percent profit is that? No nobodys holding a gun to my head to buy their music or go to their concerts, which is why i don't. I don't need to be made to feel better about stealing from them or gloss over it, was my initial post unclear? I am an advocate of robbing them. Is that clear enough? Robbing them blind because i think they deserve to be robbed, fuck em.

I never said music and commerce were not connected only that the musican and record companies are puttig out a product that you are under no obligation to buy.

Right...and i don't. Not unless i feel like it. PiL being an example, self financed, self released, I happily paid money for that.

And music is not free mate unless the musician decides to give it away for free. It is a product just like every other product you can buy. The oil companies are some of the biggest exploiters in the world so why don't you steal their gas? same thing.........

I look at it the other way, it's no longer free because people decided to put a price on it. And i don't steal petrol cuz i don't drive and believe me if there was a way i could i'd do it.

Nobody is robbing the man on the street because music is a luxury item that you don't need to survive and nobody is forcing you to buy it. Don't like the price then don't buy it...you will survive just fine........if you were talking about food or fuel to heat your house that you need to survive then you might have a point but you don't need music to survive.

So basically what you're saying is it's alright to charge extortinate prices for anything that isn't a living essential?

And why did you buy those CD's and not just download them? And past purchases do not justify stealing their music now because you feel you have paid enough in your life so now their product should be free.....I have bought over 100,000 liters of over priced petrol in my life and oil companies make record profits every year so based on your logic it should be o.k. for me to steal gas anytime I need a fill up now because I was ripped off all these years yes?

Because when i was a lad there was no such thing but even then if i couldn't get an album and i wanted it i would get it some way or another, borrow it off a mate and copy it, borrow it from the library and copy it, just any way i could think of. No, i feel i have been ripped off enough in my life to warrant supporting what is a fundamentally corrupt system i.e. record companies etc. Am i being unclear here, i want them to collapse, i want them to fall to bits, i wanna see a world where there is no record industry, thats the way i feel about popular music, i think it needs to basically just be burned down to the ground, all of it, because it is fundamentally corrupt and seeks to destroy creativity, demoralise true artists and turn music into 'a product' as you were saying earlier.

In terms of justice? Yes, if you've been ripped off for petrol over the years then yes, it would be just for you to be compensated for that on some level, fuck yes.

You're a smart guy Lenny but no matter how you spin it downloading without paying the artist is stealing his work...........

I know it is, thats whats so good about it. Honestly, i've reached a point where i actually don't really even care about music like i used to, not even really into it, especially new music, literally nothing, no new band has come out in over a decade where i stopped and went 'fuck me, thats brilliant', nothing i see in popular culture or popular music makes me stand up and take notice, it's all shite the lot of it, which is why you can look at every album on my iphone right now they're all downloaded off the net and they're all pretty old and they're all ones i bought and paid for at some point in my life, every last one...and my phone memorys full so it ain't just a couple.

Honestly, the industry and the whole set up has demoralised and robbed me of my love for music to a point, it's increasingly (at least in terms of popular music) a silly and ridiculous enterprise to me now but yeah, what i get these days i dow nload for free.

I was skint for most of my life as a kid, i couldn't've afforded an album ever were it not for like, markets selling second hand ones for 3.99 on tape and that, what you are proposing basically is that only middle class kids whoose mumsies and dadsies give them pocket money are the only ones that have a right to grow up having music to listen to and be able to participate in this kinda stuff, lets have it right here, this ain't stealing the last loaf out of the soup kitchen so Mr McGregor and his three homeless kids starve to death, it's downloading a fuckin' album and if Mick Jagger is hard up for a place to stay tonight cuz i got Steel Wheels for free off Utorrent he can come kip round mine until he's sorted himself a place to stay, now i can't say fairer than that

To answer the most important question you posed I think people who make luxury items should charge whatever they think the market will bear. If you feel it is too expensive then don't buy it but that does not give you the right to steal it IMHO.......but like anything everyone makes their own moral judgement.......

[magisme]

Call it stealing. Call it baby raping for all I care. Just know that I'll be out raping babies on a daily basis. Fuck em all.

And how do you justify your stealing of the musicians product?

I have no interest in justifying myself. I agree with pretty much everything Len has said, but the opinions of people clinging onto archaic intellectual property laws don't really interest or bother me. People asking me to justify are having a debate with themselves. I don't give enough of a fuck to partake. Plus, I'm too busy downloading your favorite artist's new album.

[bacardimayne]

Thought I posted in this thread already but can't find it. Yes, I download. I can count the albums I legally own on one hand.

Call it stealing. Call it baby raping for all I care. Just know that I'll be out raping babies on a daily basis. Fuck em all.

And how do you justify your stealing of the musicians product?

If it contributes to the death of the record industry in its current form it's a noble cause. Edited October 24, 2013 by bacardimayne

[RussTCB]

I generally download albums as soon as they're available. If I like it, I try to but it (usually on vinyl) asap. If I don't like it, I generally just delete it.

[Nobodys_Fault]

I download pretty much all my music. If I like the album, I don't then rush out and buy it either because I'm a greedy bastard.

[bran]

the musicians and the record companies steal from the consumer when they charge 15 dollars for a garbage cd that you cannot bring back as well.

it goes both ways, a lot of the downloading is due to the musicians and the record companies own doing.

Edited October 24, 2013 by bran

[classicrawker]

the musicians and the record companies steal from the consumer when they charge 15 dollars for a garbage cd that you cannot bring back as well.

it goes both ways, a lot of the downloading is due to the musicians and the record companies own doing.

Sorry mate but that is just a rationalization to make you feel o.k. about stealing.....the record company and musician did not steal anything from you as nobody is forcing you to buy a CD before you get to hear clips these days. Many musicians put clips on their websites, Amazon has clips for a lot of albums and so does youtube. They offered a product and you chose to buy it. There is no guarantee you are going to like the music.

But even if you could not hear it before hand no one is forcing you to spend $15 on a CD....it is not something you need to live it is a luxury.......So by your logic if I go to a restaurant and order something I have never tried before and don't like the entree's taste I should walk out on the check? or maybe I should steal the silver ware to make up for it?...........again anyway you spin it your still stealing when you illegally download.

And if you think it is a victimless crime, because there is no physical product stolen, think again as the artists loses money and record companies lay off innocent people when they lose money.......

Edited October 24, 2013 by classicrawker