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Do you download music illegally?


TombRaider

Do you download music illegally?  

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I choose to buy the music I listen to because, as a music fan, I believe in supporting the artists and bands I deem worthwhile. So what if they're already millionaires, they wrote She's Leaving Home I didn't.

The only time I think it's justifiable to illegally download a song is if either a) there's no legal way to obtain it or b) you are blatantly being conned into buying music you already own just to get one or two extra tracks.

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Guest Len B'stard

The only time I think it's justifiable to illegally download a song is if either a) there's no legal way to obtain it or b) you are blatantly being conned into buying music you already own just to get one or two extra tracks.

But according to the naysayers of this thread you have no right to do that because there is no such thing as a rip off if you are aware of the fact that something is overpriced (yes, i think thats ridiculous too, a rip off is a rip off is a rip off, whether you're aware of it or otherwise).

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I love classicrawkers views towards illegal downloading, I can't stand it either.

I like his views on bootlegs :lol:
I've got a ton of bootlegs as well, they're not official releases though so bands arent losing money by it. I had a copy of Live At River Plate by AC/DC about a year or so before they released it on CD. As soon as it came out, I deleted my previous version and bought the CD. I'd do the same thing with any other bootlegs if they were to be officially released too.

Why do you think bootlegs are illegal Stoner?

I don't think they're illegal...
Are you quite sure about that?

What? I don't.

You don't think they're illegal?

We are not talking about bootlegs here we are talking about stealing official releases here mate and you have yet to defend your position on why it is acceptable.

I am sure you would love to deflect by changing the subject but stay on topic....if you want to discuss the morality of bootlegs start another thread and I am happy to give my views........

I haven't deflected though, i have been bold and brazen about my opinions on downloading, very bold and have in no uncertain terms stated again and again and again that I have no qualms about it. Is it still unclear to you? Have a read back, i was talking to you in half of those posts, was anything i said about my feelings on the topic at all unclear? If anything it's you attempting to deflect and avoid the glaring parrallel and answer a simple question and i think you and i and anybody reading this can see full well why.

Why can't you just answer the question, you can't say it's not relevant because the topic and the subject of discussion is ostensibly stealing from artists. Why can't you answer the question?

I don't skirt around anything. It depends on what the artist says. If bootlegs are allowed and condoned by the artist, I don' think they are illegal if the bootlegger doesn't earn money with it. Bootlegging something and then selling it is illegal. Downloading albums by an artist is illegal.

It's still illegal though isn't it? Which is the crux of the argument, it doesn't matter if the artist says its OK, it's not only the artist you are stealing from, it's record companies that have contracts with these artists to promote their work etc

Lol brazen.....your argument was flawed in everyone of your posts as myself and others were clearly able to prove and you would come back with more bs to try to justify your position....

There was one poster who at least admitted it was wrong to download official releases but said he did it anyway which I can respect ....but your claim that the record companies owe you something which justifies your behavior is nonsense and I think you know it but can't stand to be wrong.......

Bootlegs and official releases are apples and oranges mate...downloading both are illegal but one deprives the artist and record label of compensation the other does not.....

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Well, that's why I don't think it's logical to make a blanket statement saying that all illegal downloading is immoral. For example, I wanted to buy Slash's version of The Godfather on iTunes recently from his live album with Myles Kennedy. I only wanted that one song, I have no interest in hearing the rest of the album. Every single song was available for download as an individual track, except The Godfather. So obviously, the record company expects me to shell out nearly a tenner to buy an album I don't want just to get my hands on one song. Fuck that shit.

But as a general rule, if an artist I admire is putting out a new record of ten or twelve previously unreleased tracks, in my mind that's more than worth a tenner of my money.

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Guest Len B'stard
Lol brazen.....your argument was flawed in everyone of your posts as myself and others were clearly able to prove and you would come back with more bs to try to justify your position....

You disagreed with my position and considered it flawed because your perspective on the concept is different to mine but you can't say i avoided or skirted around something or didn't address my feelings on it.

There was one poster who at least admitted it was wrong to download official releases but said he did it anyway which I can respect ....but your claim that the record companies owe you something which justifies your behavior is nonsense and I think you know it but can't stand to be wrong......

But i didn't say i was owed something by them, i openly admitted to stealing from them and i said i had no qualms about it and gave reasons. The fact that you don't think those reasons are justification is where we differ but you can't say i avoided anything, thats a clear and simple impasse, a deadlock, you think one thing, i think the other but to say anything was avoided is just plain false because i stated and stated and re-stated my position, the fact that you think differently has no bearing on my feelings, just as the fact that i think differently doesn't have any bearing on your feelings but to say I avoided anything is ridiculous because i couldn't've been more categoric and specific.

Bootlegs and official releases are apples and oranges mate...downloading both are illegal but one deprives the artist and record label of compensation the other does not...

I don't care if it's fucking pineapples and sharan fruit, it's still illegal isn't it? :lol: Your position previously was that my feelings have no bearing on the matter because the act is still illegal, so then why should your notion here that one deprives and the other doesn't have any bearing on the fact that what you do is also illegal? What you are doing is picking and choosing which piracy is or isn't OK, based on your own personal morality, which is exactly what i did and exactly what you are condemning me for. You say the artist doesn't suffer, so you're saying it's OK to steal as long as the artist doesn't suffer? Thats sort of like saying it's OK to take someones property as long as you feel it has no profitable value to them, thats not the point, it's still not your property, just as my illegal internet downloading ain't my property.

Explain to me the difference here:

Torrent downloading albums = illegal - Len says it's OK because of ripping off by industry

Bootlegs = illegal - classicrawker says it's OK because (according to him) artists do not suffer.

See that word 'illegal' in both of them? Thats the heart of the matter, the law, the fact that its illegal, not how you feel about the value of the entity but the law, the law, the law. Thats why it's in the title of the thread, thats the core of the topic at hand, not your or my moral interpretation of the subject. Now i've freely admitted mine is stealing and have stated that I don't care, you on other hand are the one grasping for justification of something that is, here's that word again, illegal.

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The main issue with illegal downloading as I see it is scale and nothing more. Everybody on here Classicrawker (I suspect) included has copied albums off their friends onto cassette tapes in the past. You've all made compilations and recorded songs off the radio in much the same way people will do on torrent sites and peer to peer networks today. So what's the big difference between me taping AFD off a mate in 1987 compared to downloading it today? Difference is I now have 10 million "friends". Scale. Simple as that.

Edit: Scale and simplicity. Copying of albums didn't hurt artists as much in the past as it was a lengthier and more complex process and you had to know somebody with the album in the first place. Now it's a click of a mouse and some words in a search engine. From a moralistic and legal sense there's no difference but people give more of a shit because sharing an album with 100 people versus sharing it with 1 or 2 makes much more of a dent in the bottom line.

Edited by Dazey
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The main issue with illegal downloading as I see it is scale and nothing more. Everybody on here Classicrawker (I suspect) included has copied albums off their friends onto cassette tapes in the past. You've all made compilations and recorded songs off the radio in much the same way people will do on torrent sites and peer to peer networks today. So what's the big difference between me taping AFD off a mate in 1987 compared to downloading it today? Difference is I now have 10 million "friends". Scale. Simple as that.

Edit: Scale and simplicity. Copying of albums didn't hurt artists as much in the past as it was a lengthier and more complex process and you had to know somebody with the album in the first place. Now it's a click of a mouse and some words in a search engine. From a moralistic and legal sense there's no difference but people give more of a shit because sharing an album with 100 people versus sharing it with 1 or 2 makes much more of a dent in the bottom line.

I imagine that in his mind, bootlegging in the 80s and 90s was some kind of rock n roll brotherhood "fuck the man!" statement, where torrenting is some geeky newfangled Internet shit. Edited by bacardimayne
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Lol brazen.....your argument was flawed in everyone of your posts as myself and others were clearly able to prove and you would come back with more bs to try to justify your position....

You disagreed with my position and considered it flawed because your perspective on the concept is different to mine but you can't say i avoided or skirted around something or didn't address my feelings on it.

There was one poster who at least admitted it was wrong to download official releases but said he did it anyway which I can respect ....but your claim that the record companies owe you something which justifies your behavior is nonsense and I think you know it but can't stand to be wrong......

But i didn't say i was owed something by them, i openly admitted to stealing from them and i said i had no qualms about it and gave reasons. The fact that you don't think those reasons are justification is where we differ but you can't say i avoided anything, thats a clear and simple impasse, a deadlock, you think one thing, i think the other but to say anything was avoided is just plain false because i stated and stated and re-stated my position, the fact that you think differently has no bearing on my feelings, just as the fact that i think differently doesn't have any bearing on your feelings but to say I avoided anything is ridiculous because i couldn't've been more categoric and specific.

Bootlegs and official releases are apples and oranges mate...downloading both are illegal but one deprives the artist and record label of compensation the other does not...

I don't care if it's fucking pineapples and sharan fruit, it's still illegal isn't it? :lol: Your position previously was that my feelings have no bearing on the matter because the act is still illegal, so then why should your notion here that one deprives and the other doesn't have any bearing on the fact that what you do is also illegal? What you are doing is picking and choosing which piracy is or isn't OK, based on your own personal morality, which is exactly what i did and exactly what you are condemning me for. You say the artist doesn't suffer, so you're saying it's OK to steal as long as the artist doesn't suffer? Thats sort of like saying it's OK to take someones property as long as you feel it has no profitable value to them, thats not the point, it's still not your property, just as my illegal internet downloading ain't my property.

Explain to me the difference here:

Torrent downloading albums = illegal - Len says it's OK because of ripping off by industry

Bootlegs = illegal - classicrawker says it's OK because (according to him) artists do not suffer.

See that word 'illegal' in both of them? Thats the heart of the matter, the law, the fact that its illegal, not how you feel about the value of the entity but the law, the law, the law. Thats why it's in the title of the thread, thats the core of the topic at hand, not your or my moral interpretation of the subject. Now i've freely admitted mine is stealing and have stated that I don't care, you on other hand are the one grasping for justification of something that is, here's that word again, illegal.

No actually the heart of the matter is depriving the label and artist of income for an official product you steal by downloading without paying for it. With an official release the label and artist does not realize any income from your theft. With a bootleg audience recording there is no loss of income as the label and artist never intended to release the recording.

I have never copied or downloaded an official release from an artist ever (Dazey). If I wanted somethign official, even if it was one song, I bought the music and the label and artist made their money. I did this with Slash's solos albums. I bought them when they first came out and then bought the Special releases for the extra songs later I did not download them......

Our discussion was never about what is legal and what isn't it was about your claim that you are justified in stealing officially released music because the record companies somehow ripped you off in the past so you are just paying them back for this injustice which is bullshit and just another excuse to steal their music.........

Edited by classicrawker
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The main issue with illegal downloading as I see it is scale and nothing more. Everybody on here Classicrawker (I suspect) included has copied albums off their friends onto cassette tapes in the past. You've all made compilations and recorded songs off the radio in much the same way people will do on torrent sites and peer to peer networks today. So what's the big difference between me taping AFD off a mate in 1987 compared to downloading it today? Difference is I now have 10 million "friends". Scale. Simple as that.

Edit: Scale and simplicity. Copying of albums didn't hurt artists as much in the past as it was a lengthier and more complex process and you had to know somebody with the album in the first place. Now it's a click of a mouse and some words in a search engine. From a moralistic and legal sense there's no difference but people give more of a shit because sharing an album with 100 people versus sharing it with 1 or 2 makes much more of a dent in the bottom line.

I imagine that in his mind, bootlegging in the 80s and 90s was some kind of rock n roll brotherhood "fuck the man!" statement, where torrenting is some geeky newfangled Internet shit.

No I bought bootlegs because I wanted live shows that the music company and artist never intended to release in the first place because they saw no profit in it so they did not lose any income from me buying them as they offered no comparable product for me to buy. If they later released the same show officially I bought that also so they got their money...I also bought every official release by the artist so they did not loose any income from me...............I bought the Stones 1978 Texas bootleg and then when the Stones officially released it I bought it again even thought the boot was as good as the official release............I bought all the ELP offical bootlegs even though I already had many of the shows on unofficial bootlegs.............

You do know the difference between a pirated and bootleg recording right?

Edited by classicrawker
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I have never copied or downloaded an official release from an artist ever (Dazey). If I wanted somethign official, even if it was one song, I bought the music and the label and artist made their money. I did this with Slash's solos albums. I bought them when they first came out and then bought the Special releases for the extra songs later I did not download them......

Wow I'm actually really surprised to hear that.

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I have never copied or downloaded an official release from an artist ever (Dazey). If I wanted somethign official, even if it was one song, I bought the music and the label and artist made their money. I did this with Slash's solos albums. I bought them when they first came out and then bought the Special releases for the extra songs later I did not download them......

Wow I'm actually really surprised to hear that.

I have too much respect for their art to steal their official product and I don't feel any sense of entitlement that they owe me anything or that they are somehow ripping me off because they charge too much money for an album or song........if I think it is too expensive I just don't buy it................ :shrugs:

Edit: but I do agree with what you are saying......back in the vinyl days cassettes were the only way to copy an album and it was time consuming and did not sound as good as the original so I doubt record labels lost too much income from copies. Now perfect copies are a few click away and since no physical product changes hands people somehow don't see this as stealing.............

Edited by classicrawker
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I have never copied or downloaded an official release from an artist ever (Dazey). If I wanted somethign official, even if it was one song, I bought the music and the label and artist made their money. I did this with Slash's solos albums. I bought them when they first came out and then bought the Special releases for the extra songs later I did not download them......

Wow I'm actually really surprised to hear that.

I have too much respect for their art to steal their official product and I don't feel any sense of entitlement that they owe me anything or that they are somehow ripping me off because they charge too much money for an album or song........if I think it is too expensive I just don't buy it................ :shrugs:

I understand what you mean but you never had a buddy copy a record onto a tape for you? Not even back in the 60's/70's/80's before the whole idea of file sharing and wotnot was even around? You never recorded a song off the radio or even a movie off of the TV? Thing is that it could be argued that copying on a small scale before the advent of the internet was a positive thing that actually helped a lot of bands.

Edited by Dazey
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I have never copied or downloaded an official release from an artist ever (Dazey). If I wanted somethign official, even if it was one song, I bought the music and the label and artist made their money. I did this with Slash's solos albums. I bought them when they first came out and then bought the Special releases for the extra songs later I did not download them......

Wow I'm actually really surprised to hear that.

I have too much respect for their art to steal their official product and I don't feel any sense of entitlement that they owe me anything or that they are somehow ripping me off because they charge too much money for an album or song........if I think it is too expensive I just don't buy it................ :shrugs:

I understand what you mean but you never had a buddy copy a record onto a tape for you? Not even back in the 60's/70's/80's before the whole idea of file sharing and wotnot was even around? You never recorded a song off the radio or even a movie off of the TV? Thing is that it could be argued that copying on a small scale before the advent of the internet was a positive thing that actually helped a lot of bands.

Never had a buddy copy a record for me but I would borrow their records and if I liked it I would buy it.....Never taped anything off the radio as the quality was crappy due to bandwidth restrictions of the radio stations but I did have VHS recorder and would tape TV shows to watch later but if I wanted a movie to watch more than once I would buy the VHS version...Just like people use DVR's today...........

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Guest Len B'stard
Lol brazen.....your argument was flawed in everyone of your posts as myself and others were clearly able to prove and you would come back with more bs to try to justify your position....

You disagreed with my position and considered it flawed because your perspective on the concept is different to mine but you can't say i avoided or skirted around something or didn't address my feelings on it.

There was one poster who at least admitted it was wrong to download official releases but said he did it anyway which I can respect ....but your claim that the record companies owe you something which justifies your behavior is nonsense and I think you know it but can't stand to be wrong......

But i didn't say i was owed something by them, i openly admitted to stealing from them and i said i had no qualms about it and gave reasons. The fact that you don't think those reasons are justification is where we differ but you can't say i avoided anything, thats a clear and simple impasse, a deadlock, you think one thing, i think the other but to say anything was avoided is just plain false because i stated and stated and re-stated my position, the fact that you think differently has no bearing on my feelings, just as the fact that i think differently doesn't have any bearing on your feelings but to say I avoided anything is ridiculous because i couldn't've been more categoric and specific.

Bootlegs and official releases are apples and oranges mate...downloading both are illegal but one deprives the artist and record label of compensation the other does not...

I don't care if it's fucking pineapples and sharan fruit, it's still illegal isn't it? :lol: Your position previously was that my feelings have no bearing on the matter because the act is still illegal, so then why should your notion here that one deprives and the other doesn't have any bearing on the fact that what you do is also illegal? What you are doing is picking and choosing which piracy is or isn't OK, based on your own personal morality, which is exactly what i did and exactly what you are condemning me for. You say the artist doesn't suffer, so you're saying it's OK to steal as long as the artist doesn't suffer? Thats sort of like saying it's OK to take someones property as long as you feel it has no profitable value to them, thats not the point, it's still not your property, just as my illegal internet downloading ain't my property.

Explain to me the difference here:

Torrent downloading albums = illegal - Len says it's OK because of ripping off by industry

Bootlegs = illegal - classicrawker says it's OK because (according to him) artists do not suffer.

See that word 'illegal' in both of them? Thats the heart of the matter, the law, the fact that its illegal, not how you feel about the value of the entity but the law, the law, the law. Thats why it's in the title of the thread, thats the core of the topic at hand, not your or my moral interpretation of the subject. Now i've freely admitted mine is stealing and have stated that I don't care, you on other hand are the one grasping for justification of something that is, here's that word again, illegal.

No actually the heart of the matter is depriving the label and artist of income for an official product you steal by downloading without paying for it. With an official release the label and artist does not realize any income from your theft. With a bootleg audience recording there is no loss of income as the label and artist never intended to release the recording.

I have never copied or downloaded an official release from an artist ever (Dazey). If I wanted somethign official, even if it was one song, I bought the music and the label and artist made their money. I did this with Slash's solos albums. I bought them when they first came out and then bought the Special releases for the extra songs later I did not download them......

Our discussion was never about what is legal and what isn't it was about your claim that you are justified in stealing officially released music because the record companies somehow ripped you off in the past so you are just paying them back for this injustice which is bullshit and just another excuse to steal their music.........

You fuckin' bullshitting blaggin' self righteous sanctimonious high and mighty holier than thou pious thieving bastard :lol: It is EXACTLY about thieving cuz thats what you're doing and thats what i'm doing, the difference is i have the nerve to admit it and you don't.

Your logic is so crooked it's unbelievable, bootlegging is a set up whereupon money is made on an artists name that the artist don't get no fuckin' cut out of, how is that not stealing? What, just because there was no original intent to make money from THAT live gig or recording that makes it alright for you and a bunch of other ponces to go around making profit on the persons name? You just twist the shit to suit your own purpose and escape from the fact that you're no better, in fact you're worse cuz at least i fuckin' admit it's thieving.

Why can't you just admit it, have the guts and admit it, it's piracy, it's illegal, it's stealing, fact. You're seriously gonna hide behind 'it's not stealing unless it's an official release', oh i think you'll find it is, thats the entire fuckin' core of copyright and likeness rights and all the shit they invoke that makes it so illegal torrent downloading is, our survey says, il-fuckin'-legal :lol:

Honestly, you can't even be bothered to dream up a decent blag, at least have enough respect to think up an airtight line of bullshit :lol:

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Lol brazen.....your argument was flawed in everyone of your posts as myself and others were clearly able to prove and you would come back with more bs to try to justify your position....

You disagreed with my position and considered it flawed because your perspective on the concept is different to mine but you can't say i avoided or skirted around something or didn't address my feelings on it.

There was one poster who at least admitted it was wrong to download official releases but said he did it anyway which I can respect ....but your claim that the record companies owe you something which justifies your behavior is nonsense and I think you know it but can't stand to be wrong......

But i didn't say i was owed something by them, i openly admitted to stealing from them and i said i had no qualms about it and gave reasons. The fact that you don't think those reasons are justification is where we differ but you can't say i avoided anything, thats a clear and simple impasse, a deadlock, you think one thing, i think the other but to say anything was avoided is just plain false because i stated and stated and re-stated my position, the fact that you think differently has no bearing on my feelings, just as the fact that i think differently doesn't have any bearing on your feelings but to say I avoided anything is ridiculous because i couldn't've been more categoric and specific.

Bootlegs and official releases are apples and oranges mate...downloading both are illegal but one deprives the artist and record label of compensation the other does not...

I don't care if it's fucking pineapples and sharan fruit, it's still illegal isn't it? :lol: Your position previously was that my feelings have no bearing on the matter because the act is still illegal, so then why should your notion here that one deprives and the other doesn't have any bearing on the fact that what you do is also illegal? What you are doing is picking and choosing which piracy is or isn't OK, based on your own personal morality, which is exactly what i did and exactly what you are condemning me for. You say the artist doesn't suffer, so you're saying it's OK to steal as long as the artist doesn't suffer? Thats sort of like saying it's OK to take someones property as long as you feel it has no profitable value to them, thats not the point, it's still not your property, just as my illegal internet downloading ain't my property.

Explain to me the difference here:

Torrent downloading albums = illegal - Len says it's OK because of ripping off by industry

Bootlegs = illegal - classicrawker says it's OK because (according to him) artists do not suffer.

See that word 'illegal' in both of them? Thats the heart of the matter, the law, the fact that its illegal, not how you feel about the value of the entity but the law, the law, the law. Thats why it's in the title of the thread, thats the core of the topic at hand, not your or my moral interpretation of the subject. Now i've freely admitted mine is stealing and have stated that I don't care, you on other hand are the one grasping for justification of something that is, here's that word again, illegal.

No actually the heart of the matter is depriving the label and artist of income for an official product you steal by downloading without paying for it. With an official release the label and artist does not realize any income from your theft. With a bootleg audience recording there is no loss of income as the label and artist never intended to release the recording.

I have never copied or downloaded an official release from an artist ever (Dazey). If I wanted somethign official, even if it was one song, I bought the music and the label and artist made their money. I did this with Slash's solos albums. I bought them when they first came out and then bought the Special releases for the extra songs later I did not download them......

Our discussion was never about what is legal and what isn't it was about your claim that you are justified in stealing officially released music because the record companies somehow ripped you off in the past so you are just paying them back for this injustice which is bullshit and just another excuse to steal their music.........

You fuckin' bullshitting blaggin' self righteous sanctimonious high and mighty holier than thou pious thieving bastard :lol: It is EXACTLY about thieving cuz thats what you're doing and thats what i'm doing, the difference is i have the nerve to admit it and you don't.

Your logic is so crooked it's unbelievable, bootlegging is a set up whereupon money is made on an artists name that the artist don't get no fuckin' cut out of, how is that not stealing? What, just because there was no original intent to make money from THAT live gig or recording that makes it alright for you and a bunch of other ponces to go around making profit on the persons name? You just twist the shit to suit your own purpose and escape from the fact that you're no better, in fact you're worse cuz at least i fuckin' admit it's thieving.

Why can't you just admit it, have the guts and admit it, it's piracy, it's illegal, it's stealing, fact. You're seriously gonna hide behind 'it's not stealing unless it's an official release', oh i think you'll find it is, thats the entire fuckin' core of copyright and likeness rights and all the shit they invoke that makes it so illegal torrent downloading is, our survey says, il-fuckin'-legal :lol:

Honestly, you can't even be bothered to dream up a decent blag, at least have enough respect to think up an airtight line of bullshit :lol:

Except I am not making a profit from it mate and I am not stealing officially released product that an artist makes his/her living off so your point is moot...if you have an issue with people making money off of bootlegs go bitch to the bootleggers....

Sure an artist does not get money from bootlegs but they also do not lose money from them like they do when you download their music for free........That is part of how they make their living through the sale of official recordings...

And your still missing the whole point of our discussion.....it was never about what was illegal it was about you trying to justify stealing official releases by claiming you were being ripped off by the record labels which is nonsense....

Also you are aware that many artists are o.k with bootlegs and see it as a benefit to their music while I have never heard an artist say they support you stealing their music.......

In any case nice job deflecting from the real point of our discussion which was your claim that your entitled to download offical material for some strange reason you can't defend.........

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Lol brazen.....your argument was flawed in everyone of your posts as myself and others were clearly able to prove and you would come back with more bs to try to justify your position....

You disagreed with my position and considered it flawed because your perspective on the concept is different to mine but you can't say i avoided or skirted around something or didn't address my feelings on it.

There was one poster who at least admitted it was wrong to download official releases but said he did it anyway which I can respect ....but your claim that the record companies owe you something which justifies your behavior is nonsense and I think you know it but can't stand to be wrong......

But i didn't say i was owed something by them, i openly admitted to stealing from them and i said i had no qualms about it and gave reasons. The fact that you don't think those reasons are justification is where we differ but you can't say i avoided anything, thats a clear and simple impasse, a deadlock, you think one thing, i think the other but to say anything was avoided is just plain false because i stated and stated and re-stated my position, the fact that you think differently has no bearing on my feelings, just as the fact that i think differently doesn't have any bearing on your feelings but to say I avoided anything is ridiculous because i couldn't've been more categoric and specific.

Bootlegs and official releases are apples and oranges mate...downloading both are illegal but one deprives the artist and record label of compensation the other does not...

I don't care if it's fucking pineapples and sharan fruit, it's still illegal isn't it? :lol: Your position previously was that my feelings have no bearing on the matter because the act is still illegal, so then why should your notion here that one deprives and the other doesn't have any bearing on the fact that what you do is also illegal? What you are doing is picking and choosing which piracy is or isn't OK, based on your own personal morality, which is exactly what i did and exactly what you are condemning me for. You say the artist doesn't suffer, so you're saying it's OK to steal as long as the artist doesn't suffer? Thats sort of like saying it's OK to take someones property as long as you feel it has no profitable value to them, thats not the point, it's still not your property, just as my illegal internet downloading ain't my property.

Explain to me the difference here:

Torrent downloading albums = illegal - Len says it's OK because of ripping off by industry

Bootlegs = illegal - classicrawker says it's OK because (according to him) artists do not suffer.

See that word 'illegal' in both of them? Thats the heart of the matter, the law, the fact that its illegal, not how you feel about the value of the entity but the law, the law, the law. Thats why it's in the title of the thread, thats the core of the topic at hand, not your or my moral interpretation of the subject. Now i've freely admitted mine is stealing and have stated that I don't care, you on other hand are the one grasping for justification of something that is, here's that word again, illegal.

No actually the heart of the matter is depriving the label and artist of income for an official product you steal by downloading without paying for it. With an official release the label and artist does not realize any income from your theft. With a bootleg audience recording there is no loss of income as the label and artist never intended to release the recording.

I have never copied or downloaded an official release from an artist ever (Dazey). If I wanted somethign official, even if it was one song, I bought the music and the label and artist made their money. I did this with Slash's solos albums. I bought them when they first came out and then bought the Special releases for the extra songs later I did not download them......

Our discussion was never about what is legal and what isn't it was about your claim that you are justified in stealing officially released music because the record companies somehow ripped you off in the past so you are just paying them back for this injustice which is bullshit and just another excuse to steal their music.........

You fuckin' bullshitting blaggin' self righteous sanctimonious high and mighty holier than thou pious thieving bastard :lol: It is EXACTLY about thieving cuz thats what you're doing and thats what i'm doing, the difference is i have the nerve to admit it and you don't.

Your logic is so crooked it's unbelievable, bootlegging is a set up whereupon money is made on an artists name that the artist don't get no fuckin' cut out of, how is that not stealing? What, just because there was no original intent to make money from THAT live gig or recording that makes it alright for you and a bunch of other ponces to go around making profit on the persons name? You just twist the shit to suit your own purpose and escape from the fact that you're no better, in fact you're worse cuz at least i fuckin' admit it's thieving.

Why can't you just admit it, have the guts and admit it, it's piracy, it's illegal, it's stealing, fact. You're seriously gonna hide behind 'it's not stealing unless it's an official release', oh i think you'll find it is, thats the entire fuckin' core of copyright and likeness rights and all the shit they invoke that makes it so illegal torrent downloading is, our survey says, il-fuckin'-legal :lol:

Honestly, you can't even be bothered to dream up a decent blag, at least have enough respect to think up an airtight line of bullshit :lol:

Except I am not making a profit from it mate and I am not stealing officially released product that an artist makes his/her living off so your point is moot...if you have an issue with people making money off of bootlegs go bitch to the bootleggers....

Sure an artist does not get money from bootlegs but they also do not lose money from them like they do when you download their music for free........That is part of how they make their living through the sale of official recordings...

And your still missing the whole point of our discussion.....it was never about what was illegal it was about you trying to justify stealing official releases by claiming you were being ripped off by the record labels which is nonsense....

Also you are aware that many artists are o.k with bootlegs and see it as a benefit to their music while I have never heard an artist say they support you stealing their music.......

In any case nice job deflecting from the real point of our discussion which was your claim that your entitled to download offical material for some strange reason you can't defend.........

many artists are also ok with people uploading their music to get attention as well.

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Guest Len B'stard

Except I am not making a profit from it mate and I am not stealing officially released product that an artist makes his/her living off so your point is moot...if you have an issue with people making money off of bootlegs go bitch to the bootleggers....

You can't wash your hands of it like that, you are part of the machinery, without you the buyer or the recipient of the bootleg there wouldn't be a market for it.

Sure an artist does not get money from bootlegs but they also do not lose money from them like they do when you download their music for free........That is part of how they make their living through the sale of official recordings...

Right, so he doesn't get money for the sale or trading of/with his intellectual property, this is my point. Bootlegging is profiteering on the back of their work or their name, an enterprise for which they would traditionally be compensated…but not in this case.

And your still missing the whole point of our discussion.....it was never about what was illegal it was about you trying to justify stealing official releases by claiming you were being ripped off by the record labels which is nonsense....

Right…and part of the issue is stealing, which bootlegging fits the description of, you can't apply the morality in one instance and then choose not to in the other. They're ways of stealing, end of. It's like discussing the immorality of robbing banks when you're a shoplifter and then, in an attempt to deflect your culpability to go 'ahhh but we're not talking shoplifting' the principle is perfectly applicable.

Also you are aware that many artists are o.k with bootlegs and see it as a benefit to their music while I have never heard an artist say they support you stealing their music.......

Well there's an artist who does, there ya go.

In any case nice job deflecting from the real point of our discussion which was your claim that your entitled to download offical material for some strange reason you can't defend.........

I don't know how many times i have to repeat it over and over and over again, seriously, if you choose not to read or accept that i've given my reason for it i don't know what i'm supposed to do about that but i've perfectly explicit about it over and over and over and over and over, i don't know how many other way i can put what is a very very simple principle. It's stealing, i know it to be stealing, i am wilfully stealing due to an abject lack of respect for the industry. Do you understand? Is this getting through to you? A thing requires defence when you feel you are doing something wrong but i don't, how many times, I am stealing, I am stealing, I am stealing, I am stealing, I am stealing. How clearer do you need it to be, it is wilful thievery on my part, it is YOU that is making a moral point regarding stealing, not me, i've openly and explicitly and continually stood by that, I am stealing, yes, how clearer do you need me to put it for you? I am stealing and the reason I am stealing is because of an unjust industry, what we have a case of is you don't agreeing with my reason for stealing but it is what it is and i stand by it, so you can say i haven't given you a reason or a justification but I have, it's just me and you have wholly different opinions on whether it's just, YOU on the other hand are having trouble applying your own principles and reconciling them with what you do, there is no such conflict on my part.
Once more, I am a thief, I am stealing, wilfully, from an industry i feel to be corrupt, whether you think thats right or wrong is not my concern, I am the one committing the act and i feel it to be just, you however are the one with the inconsistent principle because you condemn me for doing a version of something you engage in yourself and attempt to justify but can't, I am not looking to justify anything, i am telling you, for the umpteenth time now that I am stealing.
Still unclear?
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I download pretty much every album I'm interested in (on occassion I'll buy an album I haven't heard or haven't heard most of). If I like it enough, I'll buy it. But if I only like 1 or 2 songs, I'm not gonna spend money on the record. I'm of the opinion that artists should want my interest and want me to buy their album, but if they write singles and put albums together around those singles then fuck 'em basically. I have access to tons of music, give me a reason to take notice and I'll give you money.

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Listen if you want to download official release music without paying the artist that is really up to you but at least be honest and admit you do it because your too fucking cheap to pay for it instead of justifying it that it is o.k. because the music industry owes you something for all the music you bought in the past and that they were ripping you off so now you are getting them back as this is bullshit...........nobody was ripping you off and that is the bottom line..............

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Listen if you want to download official release music without paying the artist that is really up to you but at least be honest and admit you do it because your too fucking cheap to pay for it instead of justifying it that it is o.k. because the music industry owes you something for all the music you bought in the past and that they were ripping you off so now you are getting them back as this is bullshit...........nobody was ripping you off and that is the bottom line..............

Will you admit that you are a thief for stealing the intellectual and performance rights of the artists with your bootleg collection?

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