Why CD failed and the key to success

[D..]

CD is the best rock record from the 2000's, objectively. Without a doubt. Beats Origin of Symmetry, Absolution and The Resistance (Muse best albums, which are some of the best rock stuff produced in the 2000's). But that's not the problem why it's "underrated". I wouldn't say it underrated, it just missed its chance of being promoted properly, and the only one to blame is Axl, he fucked up completely.

Now we could think people from this generation have poor tastes in music. That's what I thought for a very long time, but I guess it's not totally right saying that.

The thing is, it's all connected with advertising and promotion. The more an album is promoted (see Lady Gaga, Eminem, Rihanna..), the more viewed it is, the most chance it has to please everyone. And when a lot of people say "I love it", then it makes some kind of universal connection with the brains and hearts of everyone, and even a shitty thing can turn into gold with the power of the heart of everyone. It appears to me to be as simple as that.

I've thought a lot about it for the past few years, and this is at the same time the sad side of life, and also a positive thing. People manage to accept garbage and transform it into something nice in their minds and hearts because they are so many talking about that stuff.

It's amazing how anyone, however crappy they are, can become famous and loved for what they represent, even though they are real shit in real life. I could name a ton of examples from people in France, especially with the Youtube phenomenon.
All of this has gotten bigger with the internet and youtube. People are able ton interact between each other a lot more, and since most people don't have true tastes, they see the general tendencies and go along with the crowd. All of this is just a crowd phenomenon really, to explain it in simple words.

When you are with you girlfriend or friends in the street and look for a nice restaurant, you are generally going to prefer going to a place where there are people inside. If it's empty, you're going to think the food ain't good. But maybe the best restaurant was the one with no one inside.

Now let's go back to music. Let's take something very popular.. "Bangarang" by Skrillex or "Poker Face" by Lady Gaga. Are those songs any good? They have some qualities. The tunes are catchy, it's easy to remember, it's low-quality music with a mainstream production. Now the fact those stuff got big is because it's targeted for the average listener. And since a lot of people are average people, they are going to remotely like it, and some love it. These groups of people will like the video, say how good it is, and it will influenced more experienced people, even musicians, and the tracks will get respect, even though they have very low quality to them.

This is how things work. If you add to this great promotion, and the artist support his music like it's the real deal, bang, it all works out.

So now, what happened to Chinese Democracy? It's not as accessible as "Poker Face". It's high quality music. And it has very little to do with generic GN'R music, it's much more ambitious and complex. The average listener has two possibilities: he hates it and doesn't listen to it again, or he gives it another try, and little by little, he will appreciate the work and understand that he has been listening to shit for years and that this is much more interesting. But in order to give it other tries, he needs some kind of motivator, and this is where general audience reception and big promotion come in action.

Chinese Democracy lacked that because contrary to Skrillex and Lady Gaga, Axl didn't produce music for the average listeners. He targetted real music lovers. And these kind of people talk less and aren't as stupid as the average guy. They won't go "OMG AXL AMAZING!!11 YOURE DA BEST LOOOL #makelovetome". They will keep it to themselves and maybe write on dedicated boards about it, but won't share on facebook like your average Joe who posts pictures of his meal on facebook and twitter.

So it's much harder to touch the hearts of everyone with this and the crowd phenomenon doesn't work here.

BUT, there was another card to be played: promotion. It takes a while with great music (see Dream Theater's Octavarium, or to talk about something more well-known: Schubert, Chopin. Took them hundreds of years to be loved by anyone on the planet, in their time, their music was reserved to the Elite).

And Axl failed miserably at promoting CD, like you all know. He remained hidden.

And when he finally came on stage to defend his music, he did things right... for about a year. Then the setlists became AFD anniversaries setlists, and it looked like he didn't want to promote CD anymore. It's completely unbelievable.

Anyway, here is why CD failed. But why it is nonetheless, killer music.

[jman2000]

No offence to the poster, but we have enough reasons for why CD failed.

[Coma16]

I love the album so it didn't fail in my books. It also went platinum and gold in multiple countries. Other than airplay I'm not too sure why people way it failed.

[DR DOOM]

CD isn't as "high quality, complex or ambitious" as you make it out to be

[ITG]

The original version of this thread was a success.

[jman2000]

I love the album so it didn't fail in my books. It also went platinum and gold in multiple countries. Other than airplay I'm not too sure why people way it failed.

Agreed.

[LTD]

OP, I appreciate your decision to make 1st sentence so thick in bullshit. Saves the trouble.

[classicguns4life]

Oh boy, people are really fucked up around here.

[Nosaj Thing]

OP, I appreciate your decision to make 1st sentence so thick in bullshit. Saves the trouble.

This.

I stopped reading at '2000's'. This gotta be the stupidest thread of the year.

[OmarBradley]

OP, I appreciate your decision to make 1st sentence so thick in bullshit. Saves the trouble.

This.

I stopped reading at '2000's'. This gotta be the stupidest thread of the year.

This. And you missed the best part of the first sentence, right after "2000's," he claims that he is doing this "objectively."

[ll_tj1]

Where to begin? To me, it was a success when considering anybody could have had every single song before the stores opened the moment it was officially released. Also, in the age of downloading, I think the overall sales were respectable. It just didn't smash in the US. By the time it came out GNR had been long thought dead in the states. And, rock music itself, for all intensive purposes has been dead in the USA for going on 15 years. With that being said, I'd sum it up like this, in no particular order, with regard to its disappointing sales in the US, And US only.

1. The delays, and the jokes and mockery that built upon itself for decades.

2. Lack of material between between TSI & CD. To the point that today's youth, without doing some homework or actually really being into blues based rock n roll, the average 13-20 year old kid here only knows GNR's TOP greatest hits. NR, SCOM, PC & WTTJ. With maybe 2-3 more. Like Patience or Brownstone. That's all that gets radio airplay. And you can reduce that number of songs if you don't take satellite radio into consideration.

3. Rock music is on life support the US. When was the last time a rock song was number one on Billboard here? 2001? 2002? And I'm gonna guess its a Nickleback song.

4. Pathetic promotion. Especially for such a mythical record. They played half the songs live, here and there for a decade before studio releases. Then the record comes out, the label promotes it for shit. Absolutely nothing. For a fact Def Leppard got more radio and television promotion for there "return" than CD did. And to make it worse Axl went into seclusion again. Disaster on all fronts.

Obviously there's more. A lot more. But this is a pretty good recipe for absolute, complete, genuine epic failure. And yet, they still managed to sell a solid, respectable amount of records. Released any time before 2003, I believe its a whole new ball game. Not because of the band members, but because rock music was still relevant, all be it headed for life support. Because Axl was still relevant along with the rock scene. CD was already an albatross, but it wasn't the monster it came to be. It crossed the line of mythical to ridiculousness.

[ARBeast]

Oh boy, people are really fucked up around here.

Yeah, some of those pople change their name from Brainsaber to metaforcesaber like it's more badass or something...

God when I had my first beer...actually idk it was a long time ago.

[ZoSoRose]

I really love the record but it is no secret why it failed

-No Slash (and to a lesser extent Duff and the rest of the gang)

-Took one million years to come out

That is all

[Johnny Drama]

Poker Face > Chinese Democracy.

[ARBeast]

I really love the record but it is no secret why it failed

-No Slash (and to a lesser extent Duff and the rest of the gang)

-Took one million years to come out

That is all

-Didn't promote it. Rustytip or whoever he/she thinks they are will come in and argue next that the material just sucks, but, that's a moot point. But Axl himself could have made more of an effort. Axl didn't make an effort because the label wanted him to do things their way, and with his ego, it's his way or the highway. So with him alone, surrounded by enablers unlike guys like Slash and Duff who are willing to bleed for the band they bust for, you're going to have a fail.

- No music videos. Music Videos don't do what they did in the 90's, but it's still the standard format to this day. Like Cd's, compact discs are so out. If you don't have an ipod, mp3, or are using an iphone of sorts, you're old and out of date.

This band didn't make the effort they started to in 2002 with the MTV performance and even Kurt Loder's coverage of GNR when theyr toured. They had a shot then. They didn't do things the way they should have, because Axl has to have things his way, and the world changed. The record wouldn't have done what Axl wanted since what qualifies as a hit is not the same as it was before.

Axl had his shot, he missed the boat. As much as I want a new record too the only thing Axl's got going for him is the dillemma of what gets accomplished by releasing new material.

[wasted]

I see what you saying but even with promo and success, CD would still fail in comparison with past sales of AFD and UYI. CD actually did pretty well for a rock record in 2008. It's hard to really say why exactly it didn't slightly better out of the blocks. It's worth noting that No Line on the Horizon/U2 sold the same as CD at first and they did a Residency on Letterman for a week. And it's the same line up. The main reason is Best Buy deal took the incentive for anyone to do anything right. It's like if someone gave you a Million then said now go to work, but you don't really have to.

But put the reality aside, you could see the final shitty promo, no videos, booklet fuck up as pure evidence of the kind of support or lack thereof that Axl was getting. Without the original line up, this dogged him during the making of the cd and it seems played into what the lyrics were about. The wall of negativity he was facing was unprecedented and real. I think the label was on board up to 2004, they indulged Axl or delayed for their own reasons up til then. We've been into all that, whatever you think, it adds up to same thing, this was no picnic. They were 14 mil in the hole, with projected sales in 2008 of 500k. And past 2004, decline in cds was reaching it's peak, in fact 2008 was like cd sales holocaust with hardly anyone selling what they would've in the 90s. I think Kanye set the bar with a Million sales in the first two weeks. And this is a market basically dominated by pop and country. CD wasn't projected to sell like crazy, hence the hesitation and eventually the Best Buy deals that some bands went for.

Given all that, it seems like CD was written and made to deal with that situation. No real attempt to write a hit or go even somewhat commercial. They didn't cave at all. It was 10 years out of step with the current scene going on. It was like a retro 90s rock record in the 00s. There were bands like Wolfmother and Darkness still doing 70s stuff in 00s. But in 2008 most 90s bands were either broken up or laying pretty low. There were supergroups and only very big bands like ACDC, U2, Metallica, Chili Peppers, Maiden who were even considering trying at that time. And they were basically stalwarts with guaranteed fan base with no problems of line up. Axl was seen by everyone as having ruined GNR, stole the name and now returning to rip everyone off and deceive them. Try marketing that one. But then the actual guitarists on CD all quit too before CD was released. A totally new band toured it in 09. They were basically paddling up shit creek, on a hiding to no record sales, with half the fans saying No! No! No! and label washing their hands of the whole thing and as the so called manager was trying to organize a reunion of the old band from the 90s on the eve of promo to tour for CD and they didn't have a guitarist.

Most people would have given up, Axl rolled up his sleeves and toured the world 3 times to make sure CD got a fair shot. I think in the end it was a success, once the bar had been dropped to just olympic nightmare level and they could just try to be as good as what was currently around and not have to live up to 20 years of myth and legend.

Edited December 10, 2013 by wasted

[bacardimayne]

Stopped reading at the first sentence.

[estrangedtwat]

"The key to success?"

Wtf are you talking about? GNR was the most successful band of the late 80s. It was fun. But it's over. That was a long time ago.

Axl had a few chances for another taste of "success"....a comeback any time from about 1999-2001 when people were really curious about what he was doing. He fucked it up.

A chance to properly capitalize on the actual release of the most notoriously delayed album of all time. He fucked it up.

A chance to remind the world why they loved GNR in the first place when they were inducted into the RnRHOF. He fucked it up.

He won't get any more chances. He's a walking punchline now. Everyone outside of this forum and South America views him as a washed-up has-been. He's worse...he's a JOKE. Cause he has no self-awareness...he has NO idea that everyone sees him as a failure and a freak on a MJ level. You know, before he died and became a saint, how MJ was a freak that nobody liked?

All Axl has is us. A handful of dorks that never outgrew the music and will still show up and hand over our cash for his nostalgia tours with his session band.

I'm sorry that you miss 1991 but I'm afraid it's never coming back.

[Intercourse]

CD is just not that amazing, that's all there is to it.

There was enough speculation and intrigue out there that if Axl came out with a killer first single he could have pulled it off.

Axl's not that "brave" with his choices, its just that nobody appears to ever say "no" and those that do, never get to stay around for long.

Without the standard levels of quality control that most humans have to encounter on a daily basis, there is no objectivity.

Coming back to the world with a single that had 60 seconds of chinese gibberish on the front leading into a song with no chorus....its not brave its just dumb.

[MEXzilla]

"Generic GnR music" what does this even mean lol. Seriously stop making CD look like it was the second coming of Christ.

[Damn_Smooth]

I fucking hate walls of text. Spit it out, or shut up.

[AndreCC]

4 + Million Records sold! Pretty successful to these days standards!

Edited December 10, 2013 by AndreCC

[Johnny Drama]

"The key to success?"

Wtf are you talking about? GNR was the most successful band of the late 80s. It was fun. But it's over. That was a long time ago.

Axl had a few chances for another taste of "success"....a comeback any time from about 1999-2001 when people were really curious about what he was doing. He fucked it up.

A chance to properly capitalize on the actual release of the most notoriously delayed album of all time. He fucked it up.

A chance to remind the world why they loved GNR in the first place when they were inducted into the RnRHOF. He fucked it up.

He won't get any more chances. He's a walking punchline now. Everyone outside of this forum and South America views him as a washed-up has-been. He's worse...he's a JOKE. Cause he has no self-awareness...he has NO idea that everyone sees him as a failure and a freak on a MJ level. You know, before he died and became a saint, how MJ was a freak that nobody liked?

All Axl has is us. A handful of dorks that never outgrew the music and will still show up and hand over our cash for his nostalgia tours with his session band.

I'm sorry that you miss 1991 but I'm afraid it's never coming back.

What he said.

[themadcaplaughs]

First off, to the original poster, you might be better not starting off a post that is COMPLETELY subjective with the word, "objectively." It pretty much made me tune out the rest of your argument. Also, it's a friggin' rock and roll record. There are a lot of people here who like it, it sold a decent amount of copies, it is still talked about years down the road, that's success enough for me. Anyone who bitches about this in 2013 is just mad that the record did not achieve the heights of Use Your Illusion I and II. If you like it, that is really all that matters.

That being said, there are plenty of things that kept it from being an event....

-To the average fan, it is not Guns N' Roses. Before people like MSL come in saying, "Guns N' Roses is Guns N' Roses, it's a fact not an opinion," I agree. But the truth is, most people don't feel the same way regardless of what's factually correct. As most know, the average fan sees Guns N' Roses, at its core, as being a minimum of Axl and Slash (even if the truth is not that simple). Without any contribution from Slash, most people were going to ignore it. Hell, even if Duff or Izzy had played on one or two songs, it probably would have gotten some more attention.

-Although it has gotten better in recent years, the press really wanted to massacre Axl. Not to say it wasn't deserved sometimes. The VMA debacle, the cancellation of the 2002 tour, Axl getting pissy and walking off stage at Donnington, fights with Tommy Hilfiger, and getting arrested for biting security guards painted Axl in a light that made people think, "hey, maybe there's a reason none of the old band wants to work with him."

-Constant delays and money. I know there was definitely a feeling of, "nothing in this world could be worth the $14 million that was poured into one record."

-Ultimately, the music. I love Chinese Democracy, but the average fan expects a certain dynamic from Guns N' Roses (two guitars, melodic solos, etc.) and Axl specifically and openly messed with that formula for Chinese Democracy. When a band does that, there are always going to be outspoken critics. Bands like Smashing Pumpkins, Metallica, and Radiohead have all released albums that went out of their way to change the formulas of their respective bands, and each was met with the same reaction as Chinese Democracy. They got positive critical reception and developed a small but supportive fan base, but were ultimately lost of the casual record buyer.

Edited December 10, 2013 by themadcaplaughs

[SoulMonster]

Awesome, awesome post.