Why CD failed and the key to success

[Facekicker]

You'd want to have been living on Mars not to know that Chinese Democracy was out. Probably one of the most talked about and anticipated albums of all time. It had become a cultural touchpoint before it had even been released. The lack of promotion excuse trotted out by delusional fanboys is hilarious.

[ZoSoRose]

I really love the record but it is no secret why it failed

-No Slash (and to a lesser extent Duff and the rest of the gang)

-Took one million years to come out

That is all

-Didn't promote it. Rustytip or whoever he/she thinks they are will come in and argue next that the material just sucks, but, that's a moot point. But Axl himself could have made more of an effort. Axl didn't make an effort because the label wanted him to do things their way, and with his ego, it's his way or the highway. So with him alone, surrounded by enablers unlike guys like Slash and Duff who are willing to bleed for the band they bust for, you're going to have a fail.

- No music videos. Music Videos don't do what they did in the 90's, but it's still the standard format to this day. Like Cd's, compact discs are so out. If you don't have an ipod, mp3, or are using an iphone of sorts, you're old and out of date.

This band didn't make the effort they started to in 2002 with the MTV performance and even Kurt Loder's coverage of GNR when theyr toured. They had a shot then. They didn't do things the way they should have, because Axl has to have things his way, and the world changed. The record wouldn't have done what Axl wanted since what qualifies as a hit is not the same as it was before.

Axl had his shot, he missed the boat. As much as I want a new record too the only thing Axl's got going for him is the dillemma of what gets accomplished by releasing new material.

I hate to say it, but I don't think promotion killed it. In fact, I honestly think the album had just as much if not more promotion than any other rock release in this day in age. I saw commercials on TV, radio stations were talking about it, all sorts of magazines had articles about it (most were poking fun of it, but any promotion is promotion), Chinese Democracy had regular rotation on rock radio, best buy had their little card board displays, hell, there were release parties and my station even played the whole record the day it came out. Plus the album had the "its finally coming out" aurora. My dad isn't the biggest Guns fan but he knew about it releasing even without me telling him. A lot of my teachers and classmates did too, they just didn't really care because they A. didn't like rock n roll B. Slash wasn't on the album and "Axl is a dick" (most of my rock loving friends wouldnt even listen to it even when i bought a lot of them copies) or C. too much time had passed waiting. And don't forget the Dr. Pepper story, that was everywhere. The record had promotion, we just hate admitting it. Could it have had more things like Axl coming out of hiding and music videos? Yes. Would they have really helped it push 100,00s more copies sold? No.

For Chinese to have had a shot at acceptance and even platinum selling status it would have had to ride on any momentum the GNR name or mystery it had. It should have come out in 1999- 2002 with 2006 being the absolute latest (I think if it came out in 2006 it would have sold better than 08, but not by an earth shattering margin). Instead, it came years after people were even thinking about it, either if they were thinking about it as a joke or actually excited at least it had some form of relevance. It dropped at a time GNR was inactive, Axl had vanished, and the ship long sailed.

All things considered, the album didn't completely tank when compared to other rock albums at the time. But it tanked because what it was supposed to be- a 14 year in the making, mystical, return of a legendary band. The 1000s of unsold copies at best but attest to that. It didn't meet demand and did not connect with the public. It wasn't supposed to be just another late career pretty- good album from an old band like Black Ice, Death Magnetic, A Different Kind of Truth, 13, etc. I love those records but they aren't going to be vital memories in those band's histories. Chinese Democracy was supposed to be something more so being average or "good" is defiantly a failure in this case. But then again, it could never have been what it was supposed to be, too much time had passed.

And again, I am not bashing the record, it is one of my favorites. But I don't buy the whole promotion or video thing.

Edited December 10, 2013 by ZoSoRose

[dalsh327]

Interscope had other priorities once the album date was confirmed and the album was mastered. Interscope was probably going "didn't you just sue us a few years ago, and we give a shit what you think....why? You really think we want to follow THIS with a remix? It's your album, shouldn't you be out promoting it...oh, guitarist quit? Well, good luck to ya. We'll let you know about the remix album..soon."

[acidcock27]

i think it was a big difference from what the illusions adn appetite was and becasue of the big wait only the hardcore fans were waiting for the next album adn the hardcore fans are in it for the music so they were waiting for someething similiar to what the past records were and then he produced a really experimental clean sounding album, i think thats what fucked it up it wasnt nearly worht the 10 + year wait.

[magisme]

If you ever have someone asking you what tl;dr means, send them to this thread.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Complex my fucking arse, how on EARTH is it complex...on any level?

[dalsh327]

No one really knows how an album is going to pan out in stores.

Pink Floyd's "Final Cut" didn't make waves, either. It made Platinum and was #1 in the UK, but #6 on Billboard. 3 years had gone by since "The Wall", which was a long time, but you had the movie out the year before, so it wasn't like there was a 15 year wait. There was no Napster, it's just the audience didn't take to something that was a really depressing piece of work.

The music on ChiDem isn't "complex" as much as it's got a lot of pieces and parts in the mix.

[Bobbo]

I have the real answer, and therefore the only answer you need. It failed because...

Wait for it...

WAIT FOR IT....

...it wasn't that good.

Mind=BLOWN

:lol:

[John Bonham]

No hits, no singles, and no choruses.

[Chewbacca]

I see what you saying but even with promo and success, CD would still fail in comparison with past sales of AFD and UYI. CD actually did pretty well for a rock record in 2008. It's hard to really say why exactly it didn't slightly better out of the blocks. It's worth noting that No Line on the Horizon/U2 sold the same as CD at first and they did a Residency on Letterman for a week. And it's the same line up. The main reason is Best Buy deal took the incentive for anyone to do anything right. It's like if someone gave you a Million then said now go to work, but you don't really have to.

But put the reality aside, you could see the final shitty promo, no videos, booklet fuck up as pure evidence of the kind of support or lack thereof that Axl was getting. Without the original line up, this dogged him during the making of the cd and it seems played into what the lyrics were about. The wall of negativity he was facing was unprecedented and real. I think the label was on board up to 2004, they indulged Axl or delayed for their own reasons up til then. We've been into all that, whatever you think, it adds up to same thing, this was no picnic. They were 14 mil in the hole, with projected sales in 2008 of 500k. And past 2004, decline in cds was reaching it's peak, in fact 2008 was like cd sales holocaust with hardly anyone selling what they would've in the 90s. I think Kanye set the bar with a Million sales in the first two weeks. And this is a market basically dominated by pop and country. CD wasn't projected to sell like crazy, hence the hesitation and eventually the Best Buy deals that some bands went for.

Given all that, it seems like CD was written and made to deal with that situation. No real attempt to write a hit or go even somewhat commercial. They didn't cave at all. It was 10 years out of step with the current scene going on. It was like a retro 90s rock record in the 00s. There were bands like Wolfmother and Darkness still doing 70s stuff in 00s. But in 2008 most 90s bands were either broken up or laying pretty low. There were supergroups and only very big bands like ACDC, U2, Metallica, Chili Peppers, Maiden who were even considering trying at that time. And they were basically stalwarts with guaranteed fan base with no problems of line up. Axl was seen by everyone as having ruined GNR, stole the name and now returning to rip everyone off and deceive them. Try marketing that one. But then the actual guitarists on CD all quit too before CD was released. A totally new band toured it in 09. They were basically paddling up shit creek, on a hiding to no record sales, with half the fans saying No! No! No! and label washing their hands of the whole thing and as the so called manager was trying to organize a reunion of the old band from the 90s on the eve of promo to tour for CD and they didn't have a guitarist.

Most people would have given up, Axl rolled up his sleeves and toured the world 3 times to make sure CD got a fair shot. I think in the end it was a success, once the bar had been dropped to just olympic nightmare level and they could just try to be as good as what was currently around and not have to live up to 20 years of myth and legend.

Well said.

[Rustycage]

CD is why CD failed. No amount of over-analyzing is going to change that.

[niceguy]

Complex?

Good lord, that's some delusional shit. Go listen to some Mozart and then talk about "complex."

[Chewbacca]

Complex?

Good lord, that's some delusional shit. Go listen to some Mozart and then talk about "complex."

I think he's talking by today's popular music standards.

[Rustycage]

Tons of layers cluttering up the song isn't called complex, it's called bloated.

[Nosaj Thing]

Tons of layers cluttering up the song isn't called complex, it's called bloated.

And unnecessary.

[niceguy]

And no, Chinese Democracy is not better than Muse's albums. That's your opinion, not a fact.

[sword&tulipz]

Quality is not measured by number of sold records

[Flayer]

It failed because it wasn't the record much of the fanbase wanted to hear.

[Apollo]

But put the reality aside, you could see the final shitty promo, no videos, booklet fuck up as pure evidence of the kind of support or lack thereof that Axl was getting.

What?

There was tons of promotional support from the label. I saw tv commercials for the album, which you rarely see except for the largest bands. I saw ads in newspapers. In magazines. What more were they suppose to do? Go door-to-door to people's houses? This was the most anticipated album of all time. Saying that lack of promotional effort had an effect on sales is saying that there were rock fans out there who DIDN'T know the album was released. If you think there are GnR fans out there who didn't know the album came out........well, you need to get out of the house more often.

Lack of label support? So giving Axl 13 years and 14 million dollars, giving him access to producer after producer after producer, letting him miss multiple deadlines over year periods at a time.

Ya - how in the world did Axl ever get CD released with such a crappy label.

Maybe for the CD follow up they should give him a 20 million dollar budget and 20 years to complete it. As well as a 10 million dollar budget for music videos. And a three-year notice for getting the cd booklet ready.

[volcano62]

I hate videos but a video would have done wonders for CD in the US market.

We all know the album did great on a global scale.

[Apollo]

I hate videos but a video would have done wonders for CD in the US market.

We all know the album did great on a global scale.

I think you really need a video especially for the younger market. Kids are tied to their computers and the internet.

And did it? You consider 2.75ish million to be a "great" number for sales throughout the world (not including the US, where the band is based out of). How many combined countries does that 2.75 million represent? Which country did the album sell the most copies in?

Not trying to cause a fight or argument - I'm really just curious, do you use this same logic on all bands and albums? I've never really seen anybody defend an American based band's album sales on how well it did outside of the United States. I haven't seen somebody on a Megadeth or Metallica forum say "Well, the last album only sold X amount of copies in the US but it sold Y amount across the rest of the world. So it was a global success."

To be honest, this seems like just another way to "defend" Axl. You guys saw an interesting stat and have made it one of your core points to consistently argue with. Unless, of course, you use this argument on ALL albums of bands that you like. Which you may do. I just haven't really seen people use this fact as much as a couple of you guys do.

Again - not trying to argue or insult. Just asking a question.

[volcano62]

Not trying to cause a fight or argument - I'm really just curious, do you use this same logic on all bands and albums?

Honestly I am sure there are tons of bands overseas that I have no idea about that are very successful.

2.75M is actually great these days.

Someone also mentioned in this thread CD did just as well as a U2 album. they are suppose to be HUGE.

[saber_]

It still outsold Libertad, and is better than a few ex gunners' albums, if not all. Although I will admit, I dig Contraband's rock n' roll quite a bit too.

Now, if they had just recorded Chinese Democracy on analog, and let Bucket produce it... that would've been the magic ticket.

All kidding aside, I don't look at it as a failure, I look at it as a cult record. It truly has achieved cult status. I dig most of the songs on it too. But they shoulda recorded on analog, no joke.

[Apollo]

It still outsold Libertad, and is better than a few ex gunners' albums, if not all. Although I will admit, I dig Contraband's rock n' roll quite a bit too.

Now, if they had just recorded Chinese Democracy on analog, and let Bucket produce it... that would've been the magic ticket.

All kidding aside, I don't look at it as a failure, I look at it as a cult record. It truly has achieved cult status. I dig most of the songs on it too. But they shoulda recorded on analog, no joke.

VR's first album outsold CD though. But who really cares?

Album sales shouldn't effect us - the fans - as much as they seem to do on this forum.

I don't really care how many albums CD sold. It is still my favorite rock album of the last decade. I think it is just as good as either Illusions album.

I think 3.5 million albums sold is a respectful number for any band.

********

Volcano -

Somebody lied to you!

U2 did double what CD did in the opening week of the album's release.

It also sold a million copies in the US compared to CD's 500,000.

It also sold over 5 million world wide copies, compared to CD's 3.5 million. Which is 30% more.

And I couldn't name you one song from that album. But in terms of sales numbers, it was much more of a success than CD was.

[D..]

I will make a sequel to this thread. Coming tonight, hopefully.