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If the situation were reversed...


ShadowOfTheWave

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from my experience of AC/DC, AIC, Oasis, Stones, Megadeth, Metallica, RHCP, MSP, QOTSA you just kind of don't care, after a bit even forget. Some people never forget, but obviously not enough to stop those bands functioning. There's different degrees I guess, with GNR being way over to the oh shit what the fuck happened side of things.

A lot depends on the music. If DC did not produce Back in Black then suddenly, the prospects of listening to the Johnson era seem less exciting. Commercially speaking, Metallica went through their greatest period post-Burton and the Back Album does have its fanbase. If Slash, Duff and - let's say - Bach produced an album that was excellent, it would have made their version of GN'R be accepted more and got their era off to a good start. If they produced a bad record, then it is really going to make those ''they are nothing without Axl'' voices seem louder.

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from my experience of AC/DC, AIC, Oasis, Stones, Megadeth, Metallica, RHCP, MSP, QOTSA you just kind of don't care, after a bit even forget. Some people never forget, but obviously not enough to stop those bands functioning. There's different degrees I guess, with GNR being way over to the oh shit what the fuck happened side of things.

A lot depends on the music. If DC did not produce Back in Black then suddenly, the prospects of listening to the Johnson era seem less exciting. Commercially speaking, Metallica went through their greatest period post-Burton and the Back Album does have its fanbase. If Slash, Duff and - let's say - Bach produced an album that was excellent, it would have made their version of GN'R be accepted more and got their era off to a good start. If they produced a bad record, then it is really going to make those ''they are nothing without Axl'' voices seem louder.

I agree. Strangely I came in at Razor's Edge with AC/DC and The Black Album only one I really like. But I had no knowledge of history of the bands. I just liked the music. I got DLR A Little Ain't Enough too before I knew about VH.

I agree whoever gets the name, if they deliver something great people will kind of forget a bit. Axl kind of had a backlash before the record even came out. I've heard people say Aerosmith are horrible sell outs, but I like Pump etc. There's nothing really to compare what Axl has tried to do, and also tried really hard not to be commercial, to wait long enough for the 90s to go out of fashion then bring it back, and he's hinted at that idea. There's almost a logic there...

If he delivered an accessible product that sounded exactly like GNR in the 90s. But people would say it's just copy cat stuff. People just didn't want him to have the name and continue, that's why he focuses on the "slash campaign" - the signing of the name. He must think his life was made hell by them saying he forced them out.

It's hard to really judge in this era if they are doing ok anyway, because no records are selling(not enough to convince anyone), which is what adds or supports Back in Black, it sold pretty well I think, maybe their best seller? Maybe it's true the artistic side of Axl isn't the easiest way to save a brand, going for the more mainstream pop rock base like Slash seems to have a handle on might pull it off better. Maybe if Weilland replaced Axl in '96 in GNR they could have done an Aerosmith? Axl could have done DLR solo type records. There would still be this bitterness though. But this other way has never been attempted. The idea of it is blasphemy in that Doors movie.

What will happen is Izzy will say "Ok, I'm ready to do this" and they'll do a reunion record recorded in 2 weeks and everyone will hate them for torturing us for 30 years.

But in the end I still don't think GNR without Axl would work or successful, because he put the shows on edge, so much of it is about Axl's persona. I personally don't feel like VR could be GNR. Axl as GNR is closer, it's like Van Hagar maybe or Back in Black. Axl as GNR is a "No but yeah". That's all that could really be done, whereas VR would have been "Yes but no." You follow me?

I think theres a pattern to it too. Edfie Van Halen is the main element of VH. Irreplaceable. DLR is awesome at talking but his vocals arent insane. ACDC. Its Angus hes ACDC. And in GNR its Axl, out of this world vocals. People forget that. And people on ground level in the industry see that, and it pans out a certain way. Take Axl out and its not GNR, but you can pull the other elements off. Like AIC they can do it without Staley.

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With Axl it is a bit different though because he is the only member left and the whole manner of Axl's takeover pertains to a powergrab by one - already controversial - member. There is also the fact that there has been so much waiting since the old era, waiting while the old band collapsed (1994 - 97), waiting for Chinese Democracy (1997- 2008), waiting while nothing seemingly was happening (2003 - 2005). Consequentially, there is a much wider severance between the old GN'R era and the new than for other bands and the problems of legitimacy are much bigger.

It is different when you only lose one or two missing members and the band resumes almost immediately after losing those members. Look at Purple when they lost Gillan (1973): they were back, up and running again with Coverdale/Hughes and Burn (1974). It is a similar story with Metallica after they lost Burton, AC/DC after losing Scott, Sabbath post Ozzy.

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I think it was conceivable that Axl could pull it off. But like you said there were these factors that made it more difficult. But you look at CD and see, hes only a couple of decisions away from it just being UYI 3.

And none of those around Axl, jimmy, RTB, Ezrin, none of them said wtf are doing get Slash back you moron. It gives me the impression Axl was the main guy. Slash and Izzy almost got the sympathy vote. Like DLR got, we know youre great but look its EVH.

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You would certainly have more chances for new music, new GN'R albums, although you have to remember that Velvet Revolver imploded after two records. They also would avoid much of the ridicule and hatred Axl's band manages to generate over such subjects as, lateness, riots, poor communication, hangers-on etc. They probably would maintain a sizable 'arena level' fan base and keep the critics on their side but they would not have had that sort of, mythic quality, Axl possessed up until (but not following) the release of Chinese Democracy. They would just be another band who lacks a key member (or two if we regard Stradlin) in truth, like Kiss without Ace, Purple without Blackmore, Sabbath without Ward, Bon Jovi without Sambora et al - there are so many of them around! There is always that nagging feeling, no matter how good the show or album, that you are seeing something which is second best, something, a tad phony. Nonetheless, I think they would have been accepted as more legitimate than Axl's nu-gnr (simply mathematics, two members beats one) but then, Axl himself would be a more sympathetic figure as he would not be this 'tyrant' who 'stole the name'. Slash and Duff would possess that role.

Spot on, right here.

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For all his faults, Axl is a star, like Marilyn Monroe, people will pay to see her even if she's 4 hours late. That's why they are erratic maybe, they know people will wait, pay. Axl's presence is vital.

I agree, but the VR being able to call themselves GNR thing is huge. The name is everything. The name headlines Rock In Rio.

A VR hybrid with Myles that can call themselves Guns N' Roses and do the material? That's going to work.

No, please! Not Myles. Get Weiland instead.

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There is a big difference between guns and van Halen because Eddie was the face and the brand. With Eddie it could be VH no matter who sang. With guns, while Slash was definitely a star, Axl was the one in the headlines and the magazines. They would not have gotten someone else and been as successful as VH post-dave.

However, they still could have been a touring success, but no one would accept it as GNR. I think they would be doing much like Slash is now.

As far as Axl, CD would have came out in late 99 and gotten a much more fair of a shake. As far as success, who knows. Everyone would probably say it's good but he needs slash.

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I do not agree. Slash got just about as many headlines and cover-stories as Axl back in the day but about a Slash/Duff GN'R. I think some people would have accepted and some would not have: just like Nugnr. Presumably, the supporters of Slash, Duff and whoever else they managed to retain (Stradlin would be a big coup) would have accepted a Slash/Duff-led GN'R so you automatically would have those supporters. Basically the fanbases would reverse themselves. Volcano would be ranting on about 'fake gnr' haha. But I could also see a Slash/Duff GN'R being more popular with the media. I think Classic Rock Magazine would have loved it. And there are a significent faction of, hardcore rock fans but casual GN'R fans, who refuse to entertain the theory of Axl's Nugnr. Many of them post on Metal Sludge. So these may have been carried along. As I said, some would have accepted and some would not have. I could see them playing the arenas and keeping a much steadier fanbase than Axl's (Axl's fanbase has dwindled to virtually nothing, since 2001) but I could not see them headling Rio 3 as they would not have had that 'mythic' quality of Axl, the recluse, Chinese Democracy, to headline events that big.

Edited by DieselDaisy
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I think GNR has been accepted as much as those bands, its really only forum fans or more interested that make a big thing of it. Im not sure how heated the VH boards are over Van Hagar.

For purists deep down it dont feel right. I think thats why Beatles and Zepp, even Doors have this sacred esteem. same line up.

Maybe Axls motives are too pure, trying to make honest music when he should be doing poppy self parody to connect to the masses. Slash has always been more commercial. Axl is like 10 minute epics. Izzy is lets do demos and no videos.

But i can see why label execs would think Scom, Nov Rain, this is all we need with Axls voice. Thats why GNR exists today. Whereas no side project has much traction or longevity.

Edited by wasted
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I do not agree. Slash got just about as many headlines and cover-stories as Axl back in the day but about a Slash/Duff GN'R. I think some people would have accepted and some would not have: just like Nugnr. Presumably, the supporters of Slash, Duff and whoever else they managed to retain (Stradlin would be a big coup) would have accepted a Slash/Duff-led GN'R so you automatically would have those supporters. Basically the fanbases would reverse themselves. Volcano would be ranting on about 'fake gnr' haha. But I could also see a Slash/Duff GN'R being more popular with the media. I think Classic Rock Magazine would have loved it. And there are a significent faction of, hardcore rock fans but casual GN'R fans, who refuse to entertain the theory of Axl's Nugnr. Many of them post on Metal Sludge. So these may have been carried along. As I said, some would have accepted and some would not have. I could see them playing the arenas and keeping a much steadier fanbase than Axl's (Axl's fanbase has dwindled to virtually nothing, since 2001) but I could not see them headling Rio 3 as they would not have had that 'mythic' quality of Axl, the recluse, Chinese Democracy, to headline events that big.

That to me is a very metal/rock perspective, and valid. But we have to remember GNR sold all those records because they crossed over to pop market. And that is Axl n ballads. Scom, patience, dont cry, Nov rain, heavens were in the mainstream. Slash n Duff focus never ballads and videos. So i think that is why in the mid 90s label thought Axl is the money. But mtv was dying, record sales have slide off. So it comes back to the more core fanbase which is more rock metal. There isnt the required kerfuffle over rock ballads or rock song anyway.

Axl doing SOD ot TIL with videos in the 90s. Cha ching. As they say.

And thats why Axl has Dj, its back to the heartland.

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I think long term the junkie rock n roll thing was played out, Axl's more classic rock MOR style has more legs. As long as he can do SOD, TWAT, Catcher, TIL stuff then he can find a couple of guitarists play some riffs and solos. Finck and Bucket as good as Slash n Izzy, you just get a cherry bomb instead of a cola bottle. Which isn't really such a bad things, a little bit of variety.

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I do not agree. Slash got just about as many headlines and cover-stories as Axl back in the day but about a Slash/Duff GN'R. I think some people would have accepted and some would not have: just like Nugnr. Presumably, the supporters of Slash, Duff and whoever else they managed to retain (Stradlin would be a big coup) would have accepted a Slash/Duff-led GN'R so you automatically would have those supporters. Basically the fanbases would reverse themselves. Volcano would be ranting on about 'fake gnr' haha. But I could also see a Slash/Duff GN'R being more popular with the media. I think Classic Rock Magazine would have loved it. And there are a significent faction of, hardcore rock fans but casual GN'R fans, who refuse to entertain the theory of Axl's Nugnr. Many of them post on Metal Sludge. So these may have been carried along. As I said, some would have accepted and some would not have. I could see them playing the arenas and keeping a much steadier fanbase than Axl's (Axl's fanbase has dwindled to virtually nothing, since 2001) but I could not see them headling Rio 3 as they would not have had that 'mythic' quality of Axl, the recluse, Chinese Democracy, to headline events that big.

That to me is a very metal/rock perspective, and valid. But we have to remember GNR sold all those records because they crossed over to pop market. And that is Axl n ballads. Scom, patience, dont cry, Nov rain, heavens were in the mainstream. Slash n Duff focus never ballads and videos. So i think that is why in the mid 90s label thought Axl is the money. But mtv was dying, record sales have slide off. So it comes back to the more core fanbase which is more rock metal. There isnt the required kerfuffle over rock ballads or rock song anyway.

Axl doing SOD ot TIL with videos in the 90s. Cha ching. As they say.

And thats why Axl has Dj, its back to the heartland.

I do not agree. SCOM is a Slash riff, Izzy chords, Duff bass line, Axl lyrics. In as far as it was a fight between Slash and Axl - which I believe happened in some sort of way - the other members most certainly backed Axl. Anyhow, the song happened and even Slash admits to liking it these days. Patience is purely, Izzy. I also believe that it was just as much, Slash's decision to do KOHD, as it was, Axl's.

I think GNR has been accepted as much as those bands, its really only forum fans or more interested that make a big thing of it. Im not sure how heated the VH boards are over Van Hagar.

For purists deep down it dont feel right. I think thats why Beatles and Zepp, even Doors have this sacred esteem. same line up.

Maybe Axls motives are too pure, trying to make honest music when he should be doing poppy self parody to connect to the masses. Slash has always been more commercial. Axl is like 10 minute epics. Izzy is lets do demos and no videos.

But i can see why label execs would think Scom, Nov Rain, this is all we need with Axls voice. Thats why GNR exists today. Whereas no side project has much traction or longevity.

I do not believe that nugnr have been accepted in the slightest.

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I do not agree. Slash got just about as many headlines and cover-stories as Axl back in the day but about a Slash/Duff GN'R. I think some people would have accepted and some would not have: just like Nugnr. Presumably, the supporters of Slash, Duff and whoever else they managed to retain (Stradlin would be a big coup) would have accepted a Slash/Duff-led GN'R so you automatically would have those supporters. Basically the fanbases would reverse themselves. Volcano would be ranting on about 'fake gnr' haha. But I could also see a Slash/Duff GN'R being more popular with the media. I think Classic Rock Magazine would have loved it. And there are a significent faction of, hardcore rock fans but casual GN'R fans, who refuse to entertain the theory of Axl's Nugnr. Many of them post on Metal Sludge. So these may have been carried along. As I said, some would have accepted and some would not have. I could see them playing the arenas and keeping a much steadier fanbase than Axl's (Axl's fanbase has dwindled to virtually nothing, since 2001) but I could not see them headling Rio 3 as they would not have had that 'mythic' quality of Axl, the recluse, Chinese Democracy, to headline events that big.

That to me is a very metal/rock perspective, and valid. But we have to remember GNR sold all those records because they crossed over to pop market. And that is Axl n ballads. Scom, patience, dont cry, Nov rain, heavens were in the mainstream. Slash n Duff focus never ballads and videos. So i think that is why in the mid 90s label thought Axl is the money. But mtv was dying, record sales have slide off. So it comes back to the more core fanbase which is more rock metal. There isnt the required kerfuffle over rock ballads or rock song anyway.

Axl doing SOD ot TIL with videos in the 90s. Cha ching. As they say.

And thats why Axl has Dj, its back to the heartland.

I do not agree. SCOM is a Slash riff, Izzy chords, Duff bass line, Axl lyrics. In as far as it was a fight between Slash and Axl - which I believe happened in some sort of way - the other members most certainly backed Axl. Anyhow, the song happened and even Slash admits to liking it these days. Patience is purely, Izzy. I also believe that it was just as much, Slash's decision to do KOHD, as it was, Axl's.

I think GNR has been accepted as much as those bands, its really only forum fans or more interested that make a big thing of it. Im not sure how heated the VH boards are over Van Hagar.

For purists deep down it dont feel right. I think thats why Beatles and Zepp, even Doors have this sacred esteem. same line up.

Maybe Axls motives are too pure, trying to make honest music when he should be doing poppy self parody to connect to the masses. Slash has always been more commercial. Axl is like 10 minute epics. Izzy is lets do demos and no videos.

But i can see why label execs would think Scom, Nov Rain, this is all we need with Axls voice. Thats why GNR exists today. Whereas no side project has much traction or longevity.

I do not believe that nugnr have been accepted in the slightest.

That obviously isn't true. Even in 09 people sang Better. Even the media was giving them some play around the Residency. They still pull a crowd.

But Axl heard Slash doodling on his guitar and used that. But again that's insider info. We know that it took all 5 and lightening. But consumers around the time didn't care and that's what I'm saying is that Axl, his voice, his lyrics, his melodies and then get someone to do a solo like Finck and you have TIL. It's viable as GNR to the label and those pop fans. But that market vanished. They moved on to kids and Opera Babes, breadsticks and vino. Those people prefer nostalgia to having to accept Axl made 200 mil off they dumbasses. They don't want to hear him crying about the hottest supermodel left him.

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Yes, there is a (declining) crowd return but the, ''it isn't GN'R without Slash'', or, ''is Slash not there!'' are still the sort of statements you get from the casual observer. I have never seen any degree of acceptence of nugnr. Maybe in Brazil?

Funny the last four shows I attended definitely had an aura of "acceptance".

You guys are fucking dramatic and always twist shit around for the worst.

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I do not believe that nugnr have been accepted in the slightest.

Most people don't even know they are a thing. Despite one of the bigger names in rock, they toil in relative obscurity.

I would say it like this. Most people aren't even aware what they do. And of the ones that are, it skews heavily towards people unhappy with the break-up.

Sure, you have your "look how edgy I am" contrarians that call this the best line-up ever. But they are dwarfed by the number of people that have little to no interest in the current line-up and don't consider them legit.

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I agree. In regards to the general public perception, Slash hangs heavy over Nugnr. I do not believe Nugnr have remotely moved away from his shadow. Axl should know this if he was perfectly honest with himself as this is what drives this obsession he has with the guy (e.g. reading his autobiography). And the band know this. I remember that press conference in Asia or somewhere where Ashba and Stinson and one more member were sitting there and it seemed so awkward and embarrassing, like the world expected Slash to arrive and in stepped Ashba - and everyone was thinking this but refused to admit it (‘’who is going to be the first to say the ‘S’ word?’’). Only Bumblefoot in interviews has talked openly about the issue of stepping into Slash's shoes. For the rest it is sort of this, unspoken word.

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I agree. In regards to the general public perception, Slash hangs heavy over Nugnr. I do not believe Nugnr have remotely moved away from his shadow. Axl should know this if he was perfectly honest with himself as this is what drives this obsession he has with the guy (e.g. reading his autobiography). And the band know this. I remember that press conference in Asia or somewhere where Ashba and Stinson and one more member were sitting there and it seemed so awkward and embarrassing, like the world expected Slash to arrive and in stepped Ashba - and everyone was thinking this but refused to admit it (‘’who is going to be the first to say the ‘S’ word?’’). Only Bumblefoot in interviews has talked openly about the issue of stepping into Slash's shoes. For the rest it is sort of this, unspoken word.

Ashba and Fortus have both discussed it in interviews.

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Thats kind of a thing with big bands, people buy theor records and go to shows without knowing much about them. I cant name U2 members, def not AcDc. Whwn people go to GNR shows and dont really care about it, thats real love. We make the distinction between old and new but tickets keep selling.

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Thats kind of a thing with big bands, people buy theor records and go to shows without knowing much about them. I cant name U2 members, def not AcDc. Whwn people go to GNR shows and dont really care about it, thats real love. We make the distinction between old and new but tickets keep selling.

But most people don't really know anything they have done lately. The last single they might know is 'November Rain'.

Its the lack of any real impact in 2 decades time, combined with all the new faces, that make this so hard for Axl. All compounded by the fact he has not been the least bit proactive in getting the new guys over with the general public

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The last thing people remember of Acdc is back in black.Metallica the Black album. All of them are just turning the handle. GnR admittedly a little slower. Motely is Dr Feelgood.

GNR have been accepted as one of these bands. And Axl made a decent enough record to carry on.

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