The Ukraine Situation

[Axl_morris]

With any luck, Russia will crush the Ukraine!

[netcat]

The people of Ukraine, it is my guess, have no faith that the US has the will to help them, it's quite obvious Putin doesn't think we matter.

maybe 'Netcat' can verify that feeling in Ukraine, I believe she lives in Kiev.

as i pointed out earlier in the thread, if someone in Ukraine did believe that US has an intention to fulfill it's obligations to Ukraine within Budapest Memorandum 1994, after Obamas yesterday statement they have no more illusions about it

[Ace Nova]

With any luck, Russia will crush the Ukraine!

[shades]

Ukraine is pretty much a puppet state

can you prove it or you are just talking out of your ass?

I like your style

maybe Ukraine CAN take care of themselves

The people of Ukraine, it is my guess, have no faith that the US has the will to help them, it's quite obvious Putin doesn't think we matter.

maybe 'Netcat' can verify that feeling in Ukraine, I believe she lives in Kiev.

as i pointed out earlier in the thread, if someone in Ukraine did believe that US has an intention to fulfill it's obligations to Ukraine within Budapest Memorandum 1994, after Obamas yesterday statement they have no more illusions about it

exactly, Obama is in way over his head, again

A lot of us tried to warn putting a community organizer with no experience running anything was a bad idea for leader of the free world

[OmarBradley]

exactly, Obama is in way over his head, again

A lot of us tried to warn putting a community organizer with no experience running anything was a bad idea for leader of the free world

I tried pressing you to elaborate on that view in the Ted Nugent thread, but you never replied:

Obama was a constitutional law professor at University of Chicago, his political career began in 1996. That gives him 12 years of political experience, plus years of academic study before ascending to the presidency. People with less qualifications have executed the presidency to a satisfactory (or more) degree. We can argue all day and night whether or not he's been an effective president (I do not want to do that here, for obvious reasons), but the argument that he is any more unqualified than say, Harry Truman or Abraham Lincoln was, is just incorrect.

Please address my points, rather than making generalizing statements based on......I really have no idea what you're basing your statements on to be honest.

And that fact that you have to turn every thread on politics into an "Obama sucks" thread really hurts the intelligent discussion occurring in those threads. Plenty of people have civilly expressed their disappointment with Obama on this forum, yet you seem to be the only one who is looking for an argument anytime anyone mentions his name.

EDIT: While we're at it, explain to me how President Romney, or President McCain would have solved all of these problems.

Edited March 1, 2014 by OmarBradley

[Axl_morris]

Ukraine is practically russua anyway.

[foghat43]

One thing is for sure...Putin will not be intimidated by anything that the US/Obama says or does...he's already proven that with the way he handled the crisis in Syria (and in the process made Kerry look foolish). Many view Putin as more of the "leader of the free world" and more of a statesman than Obama. Personally I don't care for either one of them.

[bran]

One thing is for sure...Putin will not be intimidated by anything that the US/Obama says or does...he's already proven that with the way he handled the crisis in Syria (and in the process made Kerry look foolish). Many view Putin as more of the "leader of the free world" and more of a statesman than Obama. Personally I don't care for either one of them.

i would tend to agree but i really dont know what obama could have done in this situation. he had to say something since it is such a huge issue. he kind of is in a no win situation really. the syria situation really hurt the administration, and was handled poorly, which in turn hurts the US in this situation.

[Patience 4 Axl]

The people of Ukraine, it is my guess, have no faith that the US has the will to help them, it's quite obvious Putin doesn't think we matter.

maybe 'Netcat' can verify that feeling in Ukraine, I believe she lives in Kiev.

as i pointed out earlier in the thread, if someone in Ukraine did believe that US has an intention to fulfill it's obligations to Ukraine within Budapest Memorandum 1994, after Obamas yesterday statement they have no more illusions about it

Yet it's my understanding that treaty does not legally "obligate" the US ( and the UK too, let's not forget them please) to intervene at all. The fact that my president said anything in regards to this matter is more than what he was "obligated" to do quite frankly.

[OmarBradley]

The people of Ukraine, it is my guess, have no faith that the US has the will to help them, it's quite obvious Putin doesn't think we matter.

maybe 'Netcat' can verify that feeling in Ukraine, I believe she lives in Kiev.

as i pointed out earlier in the thread, if someone in Ukraine did believe that US has an intention to fulfill it's obligations to Ukraine within Budapest Memorandum 1994, after Obamas yesterday statement they have no more illusions about it

Yet it's my understanding that treaty does not legally "obligate" the US ( and the UK too, let's not forget them please) to intervene at all. The fact that my president said anything in regards to this matter is more than what he was "obligated" to do quite frankly.

And, Russia has arguably already violated the treaty if you believe that they manipulated the Ukrainian government into not signing the EU trade deal (it's pretty clear that this is the reality of what happened).

Source: https://www.msz.gov.pl/en/p/wiedenobwe_at_s_en/news/memorandum_on_security_assurances_in_connection_with_ukraine_s_accession_to_the_treaty_on_the_npt?printMode=true

According to the memorandum, Russia, the USA, and the UK confirmed, in recognition of Ukraine becoming party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and in effect abandoning its nuclear arsenal to Russia, that they would:

Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.

Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine.

Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.

Edited March 1, 2014 by OmarBradley

[foghat43]

The US has already violated the treaty as well by being involved in the regime change operation there.

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/february/06/fstarstark-the-eu-tape-reveals-us-runs-ukraine-opposition.aspx

Edited March 1, 2014 by foghat43

[WTF?]

USA is all talk and no action.

Russia acts first and then talks.

[arnold layne]

I think shades is somebody's alternate account.

[shades]

USA is all talk and no action.

At Present yes,

Obama blows with the political wind, right now his voting base is tree hugging give me somethings,

liberty and obligation is not something high on their list

McCain, Romney, and even Sarah Palin tried to school Hussein Obama years ago that Russia should be on the radar.

Now Russia is setting our foreign policy for us, and it looks like his neighbors are left to themselves

Yet it's my understanding

that vast expanse?

Edited March 2, 2014 by shades

[OmarBradley]

USA is all talk and no action.

At Present yes,

Obama blows with the political wind, right now his voting base is tree hugging give me somethings,

liberty and obligation is not something high on their list

McCain, Romney, and even Sarah Palin tried to school Hussein Obama years ago that Russia should be on the radar.

Now Russia is setting our foreign policy for us, and it looks like his neighbors are left to themselves

Yet it's my understanding

that vast expanse?

Shades, please reply to my post.

[Ace Nova]

I think shades is somebody's alternate account.

11 year-old alt account, huh?

On topic...

I'm amused how some of the same members that cry day in and day out for the U.S. to stop policing the world are some of the same members that are crying about the U.S. not starting WWIII against Russia now. Beyond ironic.

I guess Obama should forget about diplomacy or sanctions and just start shooting nukes at Russia, huh?

Now, back to reality. My best guess is if the situation worsens, Obama will steadily begin to form an international coalition. (Remember those? What the U.S. used to do before Bush abandoned the concept?) The international coalition would consist of allies from around the world...maybe even some heavy trading partners with Russia. (In order to put the squeeze on them with sanctions) And of course, if needed...they could always call a NATO meeting.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Kasanova King

[downzy]

USA is all talk and no action.

At Present yes,

Obama blows with the political wind, right now his voting base is tree hugging give me somethings,

liberty and obligation is not something high on their list

McCain, Romney, and even Sarah Palin tried to school Hussein Obama years ago that Russia should be on the radar.

Now Russia is setting our foreign policy for us, and it looks like his neighbors are left to themselves

Yet it's my understanding

that vast expanse?

Shades, please reply to my post.

He won't. He complains about Obama acting like a bitch but proceeds to act like one here. Call him out on his nonsense and you either get personal attacks or he just ignores you.

[arnold layne]

USA is all talk and no action.

At Present yes,

Obama blows with the political wind, right now his voting base is tree hugging give me somethings,

liberty and obligation is not something high on their list

McCain, Romney, and even Sarah Palin tried to school Hussein Obama years ago that Russia should be on the radar.

Now Russia is setting our foreign policy for us, and it looks like his neighbors are left to themselves

Yet it's my understanding

that vast expanse?

Ha! This guy's a loony.

I'd pay to see Ratbrain and this guy talk about politics.

[Ace Nova]

Actually...like I referred to previously....seems as if NATO is backing Ukraine. If that's the case, Obama is making the right move by just commenting on the situation....obviously, if it gets worse....looks as if NATO could get involved.

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/news_107520.htm

Edited March 2, 2014 by Kasanova King

[ZoSoRose]

I just can't believe that Putin is that stupid, bold, and horrible enough to move in just to take Crimea. This situation is terrifying but I am still hoping and thinking we will see Russian withdrawal in the coming weeks.

USA is all talk and no action.

At Present yes,

Obama blows with the political wind, right now his voting base is tree hugging give me somethings,

liberty and obligation is not something high on their list

McCain, Romney, and even Sarah Palin tried to school Hussein Obama years ago that Russia should be on the radar.

Now Russia is setting our foreign policy for us, and it looks like his neighbors are left to themselves

Yet it's my understanding

that vast expanse?

Holy cow you sound silly

[Georgy Zhukov]

NATO will flex their mussles, then Russia will withdraw.

[LTD]

By default, invasion by sovereign nation to another should always be judged harshly by international community. Every time we fail to do so, we make it that much easier for another nation to follow the suite. That much less of a taboo.

Having said,rutheless super power politics by Russia are easy to understand here I guess. Crimea is an autonomous state incredibly important to Russia. Ukraine slipping towards west made them feel they -must- ensure they don't take Crimea with them. From Russia's POV, western aligned crimea simply is not an option anymore than Chinese Vancouver would be for USA. What I don't understand is why such dramatic,risky powerplay had to be pulled. Crimea is pretty well in Russia's pocket as it is. At least nobody has fired a shot yet. It is easy to appreciate. Just hope it stays that way.

In case your moral compass needs help calibrating for this, Russia wins 787,8 asshole points for carving Crimea out of Ukraine. This is 571 asshole points less than USA got when they invaded Iraq.

[netcat]

The people of Ukraine, it is my guess, have no faith that the US has the will to help them, it's quite obvious Putin doesn't think we matter.

maybe 'Netcat' can verify that feeling in Ukraine, I believe she lives in Kiev.

as i pointed out earlier in the thread, if someone in Ukraine did believe that US has an intention to fulfill it's obligations to Ukraine within Budapest Memorandum 1994, after Obamas yesterday statement they have no more illusions about it

Yet it's my understanding that treaty does not legally "obligate" the US ( and the UK too, let's not forget them please) to intervene at all. The fact that my president said anything in regards to this matter is more than what he was "obligated" to do quite frankly.

Yes, I think when Ukraine agreed to give away it’s nuclear arsenal, which was btw the third biggest in the world, it had to insist that the memorandum was worded better. However, it is what it is

- The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression

- The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments.

Now we know those terms of agreement can’t be fulfilled because Russia will block all the possible negotiations and UNSC decisions. In fact many people think that by now UNSC doesn't work as an institution anymore and it should be reformed asap.

Anyways, It’s not written nowhere in memorandum, but as far as I can see from the world reaction, most of the EU and US officials understand that they can’t just say ” well it’s non of our business” and turn the blind eye on Russia waging war against Ukraine. Because you know it will have undesired geopolitical consequences. You kind of open the nuclear Pandora Box by ignoring it. It changes the global views on what’s going on In North Korea, etc. And then everybody knows system of collective security doesn’t work, the only thing that works is a nuclear bomb

Edited March 2, 2014 by netcat

[netcat]

By default, invasion by sovereign nation to another should always be judged harshly by international community. Every time we fail to do so, we make it that much easier for another nation to follow the suite. That much less of a taboo.

Having said,rutheless super power politics by Russia are easy to understand here I guess. Crimea is an autonomous state incredibly important to Russia. Ukraine slipping towards west made them feel they -must- ensure they don't take Crimea with them. From Russia's POV, western aligned crimea simply is not an option anymore than Chinese Vancouver would be for USA. What I don't understand is why such dramatic,risky powerplay had to be pulled. Crimea is pretty well in Russia's pocket as it is. At least nobody has fired a shot yet. It is easy to appreciate. Just hope it stays that way.

In case your moral compass needs help calibrating for this, Russia wins 787,8 asshole points for carving Crimea out of Ukraine. This is 571 asshole points less than USA got when they invaded Iraq.

I think Crimea is just the beginning. Putin is quoted saying in private conversations "any part of Ukraine is worthless without Kiev"

here's an adequate article on what's going on in Crimea now

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregsatell/2014/03/01/5-things-you-should-know-about-putins-incursion-into-crimea/

Edited March 2, 2014 by netcat

[Ace Nova]

@ Netcat....the issue with UN intervention is that any UN proposition would get vetoed by Russia. NATO Is the player here, not the UN. ;-)