The Ukraine Situation

[netcat]

@ Netcat....the issue with UN intervention is that any UN proposition would get vetoed by Russia. NATO Is the player here, not the UN. ;-)

Yes I know. That’s why I wrote in a previous post that Budapest Memorandum doesn't work because Russia blocks every UNSC decision on Ukraine. But it was unobvious in 1994

the problem is - due to the Ukraine’s previous governments idiotic policy, that they called "multidirectional" (and that basically reduced to their desire to manipulate and get preferences from East and West at the same time), we are not NATO member state. So in my opinion if NATO will do something substantial to help Ukraine, it would be a kind of miracle

[shades]

Anyways, It’s not written nowhere in memorandum, but as far as I can see from the world reaction, most of the EU and US officials understand that they can’t just say ” well it’s non of our business” and turn the blind eye on Russia waging war against Ukraine. Because you know it will have undesired geopolitical consequences. You kind of open the nuclear Pandora Box by ignoring it. It changes the global views on what’s going on In North Korea, etc. And then everybody knows system of collective security doesn’t work, the only thing that works is a nuclear bomb

none of this matters to the posters here, and frankly half of our country.

they have crawled in bed with our clown-in-chief, and if he tells them it's ok, it's ok.

Just a couple of nukes, no big deal, we have health care we need to give away

[netcat]

Anyways, It’s not written nowhere in memorandum, but as far as I can see from the world reaction, most of the EU and US officials understand that they can’t just say ” well it’s non of our business” and turn the blind eye on Russia waging war against Ukraine. Because you know it will have undesired geopolitical consequences. You kind of open the nuclear Pandora Box by ignoring it. It changes the global views on what’s going on In North Korea, etc. And then everybody knows system of collective security doesn’t work, the only thing that works is a nuclear bomb

none of this matters to the posters here, and frankly half of our country.

they have crawled in bed with our clown-in-chief, and if he tells them it's ok, it's ok.

Just a couple of nukes, no big deal, we have health care we need to give away

thanks shades.

i know noone cares. i didn't start this thread. and then i didn't even want to post in it. but when i saw the enormous amount of bullshit that people write about my country, i just couldn't help myself.

on the other hand, im not surprised. i watched a little bit of CNN today and all i saw there was Putin inspired propaganda

Edited March 2, 2014 by netcat

[Ace Nova]

@ Netcat....shades is a staunch republican...anything the U.S. does under a democrat as president is wrong in his eyes....conflict of interest there. And of course the world cares....take a look at the link I posted about NATO....although not fully a member, the Ukraine is a strong ally of NATO and part of one of their programs. Also, Ukraine borders NATO member countries....that is reason enough for possible NATO intervention.

[Facekicker]

Putin has Obama's number for a long time now and I'm not talking about his cellphone. The fact is that Obama is totally spineless and Putin is the complete opposite. He already made a fool out of Obama on Syria and he is doing it again.

This will not end well for Ukraine. If I was living there I'd be doing my utmost to get out asap.

[netcat]

.take a look at the link I posted about NATO....although not fully a member, the Ukraine is a strong ally of NATO and part of one of their programs. Also, Ukraine borders NATO member countries....that is reason enough for possible NATO intervention.

thanks KK. i'll believe it when i see their decisions or better actions

[Heisenberg]

Western hypocrisy knows no bounds.

John Kerry has appeared on the Sunday morning political show "Face the Nation," on CBS.

He said:

You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pre-text.

If I was living there I'd be doing my utmost to get out asap.

It seems that many people are fleeing to Russia.

[netcat]

.

It seems that many people are fleeing to Russia.

no they don't. people who put Russian flag on Crimea parliament turned out to be russian citizens.

many people want to have Russian as a second state language, they want to keep their cultural identity. but there are not too many people who want to live in Russia, maybe 5-10%. they are free to leave

[downzy]

Anyways, It’s not written nowhere in memorandum, but as far as I can see from the world reaction, most of the EU and US officials understand that they can’t just say ” well it’s non of our business” and turn the blind eye on Russia waging war against Ukraine. Because you know it will have undesired geopolitical consequences. You kind of open the nuclear Pandora Box by ignoring it. It changes the global views on what’s going on In North Korea, etc. And then everybody knows system of collective security doesn’t work, the only thing that works is a nuclear bomb

none of this matters to the posters here, and frankly half of our country.

they have crawled in bed with our clown-in-chief, and if he tells them it's ok, it's ok.

Just a couple of nukes, no big deal, we have health care we need to give away

thanks shades.

i know noone cares. i didn't start this thread. and then i didn't even want to post in it. but when i saw the enormous amount of bullshit that people write about my country, i just couldn't help myself.

on the other hand, im not surprised. i watched a little bit of CNN today and all i saw there was Putin inspired propaganda

Though I agree that there's a fair amount of propaganda on both sides, but any notion that the West doesn't care about what happens in Ukraine is a little far-fetched. I do think there, however, limits to what the West is willing to do with respects to what happens in this situation. Whether it be a Republican or Democratic President, no U.S. Commander in Chief would be willing to risk an armed conflict with Russia. Even John McCain, the most hawkish of U.S. Senators, isn't even calling for U.S. or NATO troop deployment.

The system of collective security isn't as simple as you're making it out to be. Not all incidents of aggression must be met with a similar counter-reaction. Russia is given a little more lee-way in the way that North Korea would not. I'd advise not falling into a slippery slope argument simply because you won't accept the realities of this particular situation.

Putin has Obama's number for a long time now and I'm not talking about his cellphone. The fact is that Obama is totally spineless and Putin is the complete opposite. He already made a fool out of Obama on Syria and he is doing it again.

I hear this talking point all the time and I've always wanted it explained to me. I realize this that this doesn't pertain to the original purpose of this thread, but considering I started it I'll bend the rules a bit here.

How did Putin outplay Obama in Syria? I'll agree that the U.S. sort of stumbled backwards into a way to prevent its own direct military involvement into Syria's civil war, but shouldn't one consider that a good thing? Putin supported Kerry's suggestion that the U.S. would not intervene militarily if Syria gave up its chemical weapons. Syria agreed. How was that making a fool of the U.S.?

[Ace Nova]

Downzy, a lot of the same members that are calling Obama weak for not intervening are the same ones that blast the U.S. for "imperialistic policies" and policing the world. It's comical. Obama will use diplomacy first....then if needed, form a coalition...and if really needed, will get NATO involved. This is barely getting started....how can any sane person call for immediate drastic action by the US or NATO without the use of diplomacy first?

The truth of the matter is that people will blame the US for anything and everything nowadays....it's a joke....damned if we do, damned if we don't.....just like Syria.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Kasanova King

[downzy]

Downzy, a lot of the same memebrs that are calling Obama weak for not intervening are the same ones that blast the U.S. for "imperialistic policies" and policing the world. It's comical. Obama will use diplmacy first....then if needed, form a coalition...and if really needed, will get NATO involved. This is barely getting started....how can any sane person call for immediate drastic action by the US or NATO without the use of diplomacy first?

The truth of the matter is that people will blame the US for anything and everything nowadays....it's a joke....damned if we do, damned if we don't.....just like Syria.

I think there's a lot of truth to this. People are calling John Kerry hypocritical for chastising Russia for moving its troops into Ukraine, but it's not as though Kerry was a constant advocate of the Iraq War or that the U.S. (and allied) weren't justified in occupying Afghanistan. Russia is seeking territorial gains, something the U.S. hasn't done since the Spanish-American war of 1898.

While the situation in Ukraine deserves attention, it would be foolish to escalate the situation by immediately sending in U.S./NATO forces. Even House Intelligence Committee Chairman Mike Rogers (R-Mich) acknowledges that it's pointless to manoeuvre troops into a volatile theatre if you're not willing to use them. Risking a military confrontation isn't worth Crimea. Everyone outside of the Ukraine knows this, but still people unrealistically expect Western forces to do something.

Edited March 2, 2014 by downzy

[Ace Nova]

Latest news (can't post a link, I'm on my phone...) CNN is reporting that the Ukraine is mobilizing troops after Russia's declaration of War.

Instead of people calling Obama weak, etc....how about people open up their eyes and see Putin for what he really is....a bully and a war monger.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Kasanova King

[Ace Nova]

@ Downzy...I agree 100%....this thread shows how hypocritical people are in regards to U.S. foreign policy. On one hand they say..."the US needs to stop policing the world, spreading their agenda, etc"....on the other hand they say," the US is weak for not starting a war with Russia"....LOL....I mean seriously....is this really happening?? LOL

Edited March 2, 2014 by Kasanova King

[Ace Nova]

Let me start off by saying that I was against the Iraq war from the beginning to end. That being said, anyone that thinks this isn't as bad, just as bad...or even compares to it just doesn't understand the logistics of international affairs. Putin is invading a sovereign nation for territorial gain. His main reason when quoted was to protect the Russian speaking people of the area....LOL....that would be the equivalent of the U.S. invading Canada and Obama stating that we are invading to protect the English speaking people of Canada.

Like, seriously Putin? And people still speak favorably of this mad man? If his past actions didn't awaken people to who he really is....then this surely should....

Edited March 2, 2014 by Kasanova King

[Heisenberg]

.

It seems that many people are fleeing to Russia.

no they don't. people who put Russian flag on Crimea parliament turned out to be russian citizens.

many people want to have Russian as a second state language, they want to keep their cultural identity. but there are not too many people who want to live in Russia, maybe 5-10%. they are free to leave

I am talking about refugees.

What do you think about Russians in Ukraine? Do you think they should have the same rights as other citizens?

I ask you, because there is obviously large anti-Russian mood among Ukrainians especially among extremists who took part in violent demonstrations. Among them, there are neo-Nazis.

Obviously Ukraine is very divided, the eastern part of the country voted for Yanukovych who won president election.

I am not about to argue Yanukovych, it is up to Ukrainian people to decide. But, legally elected president was apparently violently overthrown. Why do you think that the eastern part of the country should comply with this?

[Georgy Zhukov]

Putin has Obama's number for a long time now and I'm not talking about his cellphone. The fact is that Obama is totally spineless and Putin is the complete opposite. He already made a fool out of Obama on Syria and he is doing it again.

This will not end well for Ukraine. If I was living there I'd be doing my utmost to get out asap.

Nobody wants a war. This isn't Iraq when the nation was boiling over for revenge. This isn't even The Gulf War when chances of winning was like 95%. Russia is a dangerous military power with the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. This is why Obama is being cautious and Syria did not work out. You don't fuck with a nuclear country. That is why they freak out over Iran, because if they go nuclear than we can't fuck with them. Ukraine is kicking itself for handing over the nukes so Russia thinks they can make them their bitch.

Ukraine has limited options and it looks like they are mobilizing. They are calling Putin's bluff.

[Ace Nova]

Putin has Obama's number for a long time now and I'm not talking about his cellphone. The fact is that Obama is totally spineless and Putin is the complete opposite. He already made a fool out of Obama on Syria and he is doing it again.

This will not end well for Ukraine. If I was living there I'd be doing my utmost to get out asap.

Nobody wants a war. This isn't Iraq when the nation was boiling over for revenge. This isn't even The Gulf War when chances of winning was like 95%. Russia is a dangerous military power with the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. This is why Obama is being cautious and Syria did not work out. You don't fuck with a nuclear country.

Voice of reason.

[Scumcat Esq.]

If I was living there I'd be doing my utmost to get out asap.

It seems that many people are fleeing to Russia.

They're welcome.

Instead of people calling Obama weak, etc....how about people open up their eyes and see Putin for what he really is....a bully and a war monger.

Mostly don't like Putin. Never voted for him since the very beginning. But he was asked to provide help. He expressed his readiness to comply.

[Facekicker]

Latest news (can't post a link, I'm on my phone...) CNN is reporting that the Ukraine is mobilizing troops after Russia's declaration of War.

Instead of people calling Obama weak, etc....how about people open up their eyes and see Putin for what he really is....a bully and a war monger.

Many would say the same about America for the illegal Iraq war and the recent actions regarding Syria. America has been stoking up tension in Ukraine every bit as much as Russia. Even more so in Syria. But when push came to shove, Putin outmanouevered Obama on Syria and now he has done it again in Ukraine. Everyone knows the stakes of an America vs Russia confrontation yet Putin acts regardless while Obama waffles on about crossing lines that nobody takes seriously, least of all Putin.

If Obama lets Putin have his way in Ukraine what next? It will tell the international community that promises to allies means jack shit, that countries like Iran and North Korea should never give up their nukes like Ukraine did and it will only embolden Putin regarding other former Soviet Bloc countries.

Obama looks weak and has done for a while now. Putin is not intimidated one iota by him.

[bran]

@ Downzy...I agree 100%....this thread shows how hypocritical people are in regards to U.S. foreign policy. On one hand they say..."the US needs to stop policing the world, spreading their agenda, etc"....on the other hand they say," the US is weak for not starting a war with Russia"....LOL....I mean seriously....is this really happening?? LOL

yeah exactly. it is also similar to what countries have said in the past. look at south korea, when bush was still president south korea started talking about how they didnt want US soldiers in south korea anymore. then a couple months later north korea started talking about possibly nuking south korea and attacking them. you heard no more about south korea wanting the US out after that.

the US can never win in this situation. the world wants us to stop getting into other countries affairs and then bitch when we do not get involved in other countries affairs. im not an obama fan by any stretch but on this situation he is doing all he can. he is in a no win situation here. he had to comment on the situation since it is a pretty large event, but he cannot risk an all out open war with russia. putin is a crazy fucker but it looks like the ukraine is mobilizing, we will see how far putin is willing to go.

[foghat43]

How did Putin outplay Obama in Syria? I'll agree that the U.S. sort of stumbled backwards into a way to prevent its own direct military involvement into Syria's civil war, but shouldn't one consider that a good thing? Putin supported Kerry's suggestion that the U.S. would not intervene militarily if Syria gave up its chemical weapons. Syria agreed. How was that making a fool of the U.S.?

LOL...Putin supported Kerry's suggestion? It wasn't an actual suggestion at all, and then Putin called his bluff and made him look foolish.

Following Kerry’s statement, a US State Department spokeswoman clarified that “Secretary Kerry was making a rhetorical argument about the impossibility and unlikelihood of Assad turning over chemical weapons...His [Kerry’s] point was that this brutal dictator with a history of playing fast and loose with the facts cannot be trusted to turn over chemical weapons, otherwise he would have done so long ago. That’s why the world faces this moment,” the spokeswoman said.

But for the record...I was glad that Obama showed some restraint in Syria and backed down.

And then Kerry's comments this morning also make him look foolish and hypocritical...

He said:

You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pre-text.

Iraq and Afghanistan immediately come to mind as recent examples of where the US did exactly what Kerry is describing. But there are numerous examples throughout American history going as far back as 1846...

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/02/richard-sanders/how-to-start-a-war-the-american-use-of-war-pretext-incidents/

And did Kerry mean that it was OK to invade other countries on trumped up pre-texts prior to the 21st century, but now it is not OK? LOL

And before I'm accused of being a "staunch Republican"...since apparently only staunch Republicans are critical of Obama/Kerry...let me assure you that I am not a Republican, not even a lukewarm Republican, much less a staunch one.

Edited March 2, 2014 by foghat43

[Ace Nova]

Latest news (can't post a link, I'm on my phone...) CNN is reporting that the Ukraine is mobilizing troops after Russia's declaration of War.

Instead of people calling Obama weak, etc....how about people open up their eyes and see Putin for what he really is....a bully and a war monger.

Many would say the same about America for the illegal Iraq war and the recent actions regarding Syria. America has been stoking up tension in Ukraine every bit as much as Russia. Even more so in Syria. But when push came to shove, Putin outmanouevered Obama on Syria and now he has done it again in Ukraine. Everyone knows the stakes of an America vs Russia confrontation yet Putin acts regardless while Obama waffles on about crossing lines that nobody takes seriously, least of all Putin.

Obama looks weak and has done for a while now. Putin is not intimidated one iota by him.

You act as if this is a good thing? You act as if Putin is some sort of hero when in reality the guy is a mad man.

And again...comparing this to Iraq is borderline asinine.

I was against the Iraq war but that war had completely different scenarios. Hussein initially refused to let UN inspectors inspect certain factories, warehouses, etc...that supposedly could have made or held chemical and biological weapons. This is something he had agreed to do after the first Gulf War...so he broke his agreement with the U.N. Eventually he allowed them in but after some time...he kicked them out...further fueling tensions while the U.S. was still boiling over 9/11.

When was Russia attacked? When did Ukraine invade a country? (Iraq > Kuwait). When did the U.S. invade Iraq for territorial gain? And when did the U.S. state that the reason they were invading Iraq was to protect the English speaking people of Iraq?

You're joking, right?

Edited March 2, 2014 by Kasanova King

[netcat]

.

It seems that many people are fleeing to Russia.

no they don't. people who put Russian flag on Crimea parliament turned out to be russian citizens.

many people want to have Russian as a second state language, they want to keep their cultural identity. but there are not too many people who want to live in Russia, maybe 5-10%. they are free to leave

I am talking about refugees.

What do you think about Russians in Ukraine? Do you think they should have the same rights as other citizens?

I ask you, because there is obviously large anti-Russian mood among Ukrainians especially among extremists who took part in violent demonstrations. Among them, there are neo-Nazis.

Obviously Ukraine is very divided, the eastern part of the country voted for Yanukovych who won president election.

I am not about to argue Yanukovych, it is up to Ukrainian people to decide. But, legally elected president was apparently violently overthrown. Why do you think that the eastern part of the country should comply with this?

There are no refugees. All you see on TV is fake, made by Russians to justify their invasion to Ukraine. Don’t you think it’s fucking ridiculous that you are trying to tell me what’s going on in my country???

People who took part in demonstrations are the normal Ukrainian people. I was there, protesting. My parents were there. All my friends were there. 99% of all people I know were there. We are not neo-nazis. We are normal people. We want to live in our own state of Ukraine, the vast majority of us don’t want anything to do with Russia.

As for Yanuckovich, he WAS a legally elected president, until the minute he ordered the riot police to shoot at the peaceful protesters. After that he became illegitimate, at least for the people of Ukraine. Several days after he run away from the country. And now we all strongly support the technical government that was formed until the next early president elections in May. and we will fight for our independence

If I was living there I'd be doing my utmost to get out asap.

It seems that many people are fleeing to Russia.

They're welcome.

Instead of people calling Obama weak, etc....how about people open up their eyes and see Putin for what he really is....a bully and a war monger.

Mostly don't like Putin. Never voted for him since the very beginning. But he was asked to provide help. He expressed his readiness to comply.

Да никто его сюда не звал, твого Путина. Ни в Крым, ни тем более куда-то еще. Всё что показывают у вас по телеку – охеревшая наглая пропаганда. Люди, которые возмущаются в Крыму, на поверку оказываются провокаторами с российскими паспортами. Забирайте их и валите нах из нашей страны

Edited March 2, 2014 by netcat

[OmarBradley]

Да никто его сюда не звал, твого Путина. Ни в Крым, ни тем более куда-то еще. Всё что показывают у вас по телеку – охеревшая наглая пропаганда. Люди, которые возмущаются в Крыму, на поверку оказываются провокаторами с российскими паспортами. Забирайте их и валите нах из нашей страны

"Yes, no one here is not called, tvogo Putin. Neither the Crimea, much less somewhere else. All they show you on TV - oherevshaya blatant propaganda. People who resent the Crimea, prove to be provocateurs with Russian passports. Take them and get the hell out of our country tries" - Google Translate

[WTF?]

Latest news (can't post a link, I'm on my phone...) CNN is reporting that the Ukraine is mobilizing troops after Russia's declaration of War.

Instead of people calling Obama weak, etc....how about people open up their eyes and see Putin for what he really is....a bully and a war monger.

They call Obama weak because he doesn't fallow with what he says he will do....Putin made a fool of him on Syria and is provoking him right now with Ukraine and Obama together with EU will just bark like dogs at Putin and at the end wont do jack shit about.