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magisme

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And you saying he didn't is nothing but hearsay also yet you seem awfully sure of it. :shrugs:

Seriously man? Youre saying that a cop (allegedly) being charged by a 300lb assailant has to prove that its happening to him beyond reasonable doubt before acting in self defence? :lol:

"Errrr, could you just hang on a second there son? Just wait a minute so that I can make sure there are at least three independent witnesses and video footage of you charging at me so that I may defend myself without worrying about prosecution?"

Actually, that's the way it works in the USA, Dazey.

Our citizens are 100% INNOCENT.....until proven guilty.

;)

Yeah but you're kinda missing the point. Youre comparing apples with oranges here man. Sorry but were not talking about a trial in a court of law, were talking about a hypothetical case of self-defence. If somebody attacks or tries to attack you in the street at what point does is their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? Are they guilty at the point they charge you? Do you still give em the benefit of the doubt when the first headbutt comes in? Are you justified in pulling a weapon as theyre stamping on your head? Do you think ah maybe its just kids being kids as they take your gun off you and hold it to your head?

None of it matters when you are dealing with someone that is UNARMED.

Cops CANNOT....ARE NOT ALLOWED TO.....ABSOLUTELY CANNOT just kill someone THAT IS UNARMED.

Seriously....how in hell has this discussion even come to this?

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And you saying he didn't is nothing but hearsay also yet you seem awfully sure of it. :shrugs:

Seriously man? Youre saying that a cop (allegedly) being charged by a 300lb assailant has to prove that its happening to him beyond reasonable doubt before acting in self defence? :lol:

"Errrr, could you just hang on a second there son? Just wait a minute so that I can make sure there are at least three independent witnesses and video footage of you charging at me so that I may defend myself without worrying about prosecution?"

Actually, that's the way it works in the USA, Dazey.

Our citizens are 100% INNOCENT.....until proven guilty.

;)

Yeah but you're kinda missing the point. Youre comparing apples with oranges here man. Sorry but were not talking about a trial in a court of law, were talking about a hypothetical case of self-defence. If somebody attacks or tries to attack you in the street at what point does is their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? Are they guilty at the point they charge you? Do you still give em the benefit of the doubt when the first headbutt comes in? Are you justified in pulling a weapon as theyre stamping on your head? Do you think ah maybe its just kids being kids as they take your gun off you and hold it to your head?

None of it matters when you are dealing with someone that is UNARMED.

Cops CANNOT....ARE NOT ALLOWED TO.....ABSOLUTELY CANNOT just kill someone THAT IS UNARMED.

They can. And they do.

Hey guess what.....this isn't the first time this has happened either.

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And you saying he didn't is nothing but hearsay also yet you seem awfully sure of it. :shrugs:

Seriously man? Youre saying that a cop (allegedly) being charged by a 300lb assailant has to prove that its happening to him beyond reasonable doubt before acting in self defence? :lol:

"Errrr, could you just hang on a second there son? Just wait a minute so that I can make sure there are at least three independent witnesses and video footage of you charging at me so that I may defend myself without worrying about prosecution?"

Actually, that's the way it works in the USA, Dazey.

Our citizens are 100% INNOCENT.....until proven guilty.

;)

Yeah but you're kinda missing the point. Youre comparing apples with oranges here man. Sorry but were not talking about a trial in a court of law, were talking about a hypothetical case of self-defence. If somebody attacks or tries to attack you in the street at what point does is their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? Are they guilty at the point they charge you? Do you still give em the benefit of the doubt when the first headbutt comes in? Are you justified in pulling a weapon as theyre stamping on your head? Do you think ah maybe its just kids being kids as they take your gun off you and hold it to your head?

None of it matters when you are dealing with someone that is UNARMED.

Cops CANNOT....ARE NOT ALLOWED TO.....ABSOLUTELY CANNOT just kill someone THAT IS UNARMED.

Seriously....how in hell has this discussion even come to this?

It matters absolutely. Are you saying that just because somebody isn't armed they aren't capable of inflicting serious injury or death?

For the record I dont know for sure what happened here more than anybody else to be honest. Im not taking sides as much as playing devils advocate and putting the opposing case to those who seem to have it all figured out, case closed.

Personally I think that this was nothing more than a series of unfortunate coincidences that escalated out of the control of any of the participants. I dont think its beyond any sensible person to piece together most of the events that led up to the shooting just by using simple logic and common sense.

Based on the reports weve heard from both sides we know at least some of the facts. Heres what I suspect happened for what its worth.

Brown and his buddy were walking home down the middle of the street when the cop spots them. The cops story is that he asks them to get onto the sidewalk whereas Dorian Johnson claims the cop was abusive and they simply told him they were nearly home and walked off.

Reading between the lines there, the cop probably got mouthy and told them to get the fuck out of the road and got a bunch of attitude and a fuck you in return.

The cop says that he then attempted to get out of his car and was attacked whereas the witness says that the cop skidded his car in front of them and smacked the door into the big guy. Again I suspect that the witness side of the story is probably closer to the truth.

Both accounts agree that a struggle then occurred and a shot was discharged in the car. They differ in that the cop says that Brown pushed him back into the car and tried to grab for his gun. Johnson says that the cop grabbed his buddy around the neck from through the drivers window and tried to pull him into the car.

Now to me Id be inclined to think that the cops account was more plausible at that point. Perhaps the big guy saw red after having the door slammed into him and lashed out? I mean that would certainly seem more likely would it not?

I cant see the logic in trying to pull a guy twice your size into the front seat of the car through the window when youre still sitting in it. More to the point how the fuck do you reach his neck from a sitting position when hes 6 feet fucking 4?

Both accounts then say that after the shot was fired the two guys ran away from the car at which point the cop drew his weapon and stepped out of the car.

Browns buddy then says that they ran and the cop shot his friend in the back at which point he turned around and was shot a further five times. This we know not to be the case as the autopsy proves that all shots were fired from the front.

I think that up to this point the above is not an unreasonable assumption thinking about it logically.

After that point we now have two scenarios.

The first as per the cops account is that Michael Brown charged him and he fired in self-defence.

The second is that he shot an unarmed civilian in cold blood.

Edited by Dazey
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Sorry guys I deleted my post by accident.

I'd like to point out though that a white man was shot dead by the police in Salt lake just last week under incredibly similar circumstances. I posted the article. Most seem to not give a shit. I wonder why? Where's the outrage? Where's the riots? Where's the white community losing their shit? Oh that's right media refused to report it because it doesn't sell. It doesn't bring in ratings where as white cop kills black man is KA-CHING! The problem with this shit is by doing this the coloured community buys into the media with all their heart, no questions asked and then they resent the white people who do ask questions, who do want real answers who do want to be a vehicle of change but it's too late. To question it or not agree 100% with the coloured community's opinion equals being a blatant racist or even a closet racists. So at this point conversation isn't even allowed let alone wanted. The coloured community wants the help of white people to change this but they are not willing to engage in conversation that doesn't share their exact opinion or point of view.

Even in this thread we have people wanting to know the full details of this incident yet we have people criticizing those who don't condemn the officer to death without know the facts. People are judging the officers ability. They are suggesting he should've picked another line of work. Nobody even knows this officer's fucking story or history but the guy who was robbing the store and physically assaulting the guy working there is the good guy in this. Did he deserve to die? No. Nobody does for that but who the fuck are we, sitting behind our keyboards to judge the officer and his ability when we have no fucking clue what went down that night? People like the lazy headline though. "WHITE OFFICER KILLS Black MAN!" Boom case closed end of discussion. It was racially motivated and fuck ya'll who think otherwise or even dare to question it. Really?

Time for a reality check because far too many people are so quick to condemn police officers for being awful people. Police officers step into hostile environments every single day. You do not. Most of you have never been in a position where you felt really threatened nor have you ever been in a position where you are the authority and need to maintain that. It's so easy for us to sit behind our computers and say how the police should react or they should subdue an individual. I don't care how much training you have if you're a 5'10 190 lbs officer and a 6'4, 250 lb man charges you you might react differently than you would when analyzing a situation from behind your computer. Just saying.

I spoke with a police officer a few nights ago who got into a situation with a person on the street who was much bigger than him while on duty. The officer is a really good guy. Level headed and always calm. He approached the man and asked him to leave the area as there was an issue going on. This man had nothing to do with it but was being a nuisance and was drunk so he was free to leave or go to the drunk tank. The man then started getting aggressive and actually shoved the officer and then squared up against him. Now with witnesses and cell phone cameras all over the place how would you as the lone officer deal with this? Take out your gun? Your baton? Would you engage in and to hand combat? Honestly what would you do? You are in a situation where you need to maintain your authority. You can't back down because if you do so you lose all credibility in front of all the witnesses. If you pull out your gun you're a fucking lunatic cop. If you pull your gun and the guy calls your bluff and attacks now you're at risk of him taking your gun. If you pull out your baton and threaten to use it, you're now engaging in police brutality and again run the risk of him getting it and turning it on you. If you engage in hand to hand combat you're putting yourself at risk.

I don't need to tell you how this story ends but I'd like to know what any of you would do in this situation? I just love how people judge the police and know exactly how things should be handled yet you've never been in a situation even remotely close to it where decisions need to be made in the blink of an eye. Decisions that first take into consideration your well being and then that of the person in question. The person in question doesn't give a fuck about the police officer's well being. That drastically changes the dynamic of these types of altercations.

Nobody wants to tackle that ^^ eh? Didn't think so. It's much easier to "know" behind our keyboards that to actually really think about it.

I won't dignify some of what is written here with a response as it apears to be the absurd ramblings of someone that is drunk, but yeah, I tackled it a way back-- I would draw my hand gun just about everytime, and I would neutralize the threat until it was no long a danger.

It's definitely getting hot up in St. Louis with Rapper Nelly asking that the verdict should basically be public retribution and should make cops think twice before shooting! Does he have a point?

His opinion is just as valid as Kim Kardashian or Paris Hilton's. And I give it just about as much weight.

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Wait, so you guys are arguing that it was arguably justified because you think Michael Brown charged at him? But the police are saying he came over to him and assaulted him, which is why he was shot. Those arguments don't seem to correlate to me.

Either he charged towards him and was shot because of the impending threat, or because he actually reached the officer and assaulted him.

Also, the argument that he's dangerous because he's 6'4 and 300lbs is ridiculous. Your height/weight/size don't make you a dangerous person.

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So what I've learned from all this is that if I comply with the cop's wishes..........am respectful if a cop ever confronts me...........and I don't commit any crimes............then I won't be shot to death by a police officer? Got it.

Every time a cop has an interaction with somebody it's a potential life-threating situation. Some of you want the cops to be more peaceful and friendly - seriously? If I stop, say "yes sir" and do what the cop tells me and answers his questions, I'm pretty sure I won't be shot and killed. If I push the cop, argue with him, tell him to go f*ck himself and then take off running...........well, the chances of something violent happening to me increase dramatically. And if I start to run and the cop says to stop, I'm pretty sure my odds of getting shot decrease dramatically if I STOP running.

Pretty simple stuff.

Does police brutality happen? Yes. Do some cops go overboard? Yes. Are there power-hungry jerks who are cops? Yes. Just like there are those same types of people in every walk of society. But the way some of you are generalizing all cops is pretty disgusting. Like saying that all priests and boyscout leaders are pedophiles.

I know 14-15 guys that are cops in my town. And a couple of them are meat-heads on power trips. But the other 13 of them are super nice guys who risk their life on a daily basis ALL because they want to make our city a safe place to live.

I also wonder if those of you who hate cops so much keep your street-cred cool and edgy if a crime is being committed against you? If your house is robbed, or being robbed, if your wife gets raped, your child gets kidnapped, etc - do you take care of those things yourself, or do you call the cops to come help?

Comply with the cop's demands...........don't commit crimes.............and don't judge an entire group of people by the actions of the select minority of them.

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So what I've learned from all this is that if I comply with the cop's wishes..........am respectful if a cop ever confronts me...........and I don't commit any crimes............then I won't be shot to death by a police officer? Got it.

Every time a cop has an interaction with somebody it's a potential life-threating situation. Some of you want the cops to be more peaceful and friendly - seriously? If I stop, say "yes sir" and do what the cop tells me and answers his questions, I'm pretty sure I won't be shot and killed. If I push the cop, argue with him, tell him to go f*ck himself and then take off running...........well, the chances of something violent happening to me increase dramatically. And if I start to run and the cop says to stop, I'm pretty sure my odds of getting shot decrease dramatically if I STOP running.

Pretty simple stuff.

Yep, I learned that as a teen. Why would someone confront, and antagonize, anyone with a gun??? It ain't rocket science, folks.

Some might find this offensive. Be forewarned:

https://i.imgur.com/XeOCUwv.jpg

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KK, can you link me to the footage of the actual incident that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Michael Brown didn't try to grab the gun, didn't shove the police car door back on the officer, didn't get in to a scrap with him through the window, didn't continue to walk brazenly down the middle of the road shouting intimidations, didn't turn around and charge the officer, because I can't seem to find it online.

Again, I'm not condoning nor suggesting he deserved to be shot to death, but you just seem so cocksure about the facts of what went down in the middle of that road.

I've seen his friend's initial interview where he basically said they were two local angels minding their own business, doing nothing wrong and not hurting anybody (physically or psychologically) just walking through the middle of traffic (for no apparent rational reason) and a cop rolled up and emptied six bullets into his friend's back.
I've also seen his interview where he's standing next to his lawyer sounding like he is reading from a teleprompter with a revised script of events (after the video was released showing what they had been up to not ten minutes earlier).

Help me out man, can you hook me up with the proof of what went down one way or the other?

Thanks :)

Edited by Zint
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KK, can you link me to the footage of the actual incident that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Michael Brown didn't try to grab the gun, didn't shove the police car door back on the officer, didn't get in to a scrap with him through the window, didn't continue to walk brazenly down the middle of the road shouting intimidations, didn't turn around and charge the officer, because I can't seem to find it online.

Subsequently, I also can't find the footage of the actual incident that shows Michael Brown merely running away because he was scared (for being told to get on the sidewalk?).

Again, I'm not condoning nor suggesting he deserved to be shot to death, but you just seem so cocksure about the facts of what went down in the middle of that road.

I've seen his friend's initial interview where he basically said they were two local angels minding their own business, doing nothing wrong and not hurting anybody (physically or psychologically) just walking through the middle of traffic enjoying the sunny afternoon and a cop rolled up and emptied six bullets into his friend's back.

I've also seen his interview where he's standing next to his lawyer sounding like he is reading from a teleprompter with a revised script of events (after the video was released showing what they had been up to not ten minutes earlier).

Help me out man, can you hook me up with the proof of what went down one way or the other?

Thanks :)

[\thread]
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KK, can you link me to the footage of the actual incident that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Michael Brown didn't try to grab the gun, didn't shove the police car door back on the officer, didn't get in to a scrap with him through the window, didn't continue to walk brazenly down the middle of the road shouting intimidations, didn't turn around and charge the officer, because I can't seem to find it online.

Subsequently, I also can't find the footage of the actual incident that shows Michael Brown merely running away because he was scared (for being told to get on the sidewalk?).

Again, I'm not condoning nor suggesting he deserved to be shot to death, but you just seem so cocksure about the facts of what went down in the middle of that road.

I've seen his friend's initial interview where he basically said they were two local angels minding their own business, doing nothing wrong and not hurting anybody (physically or psychologically) just walking through the middle of traffic enjoying the sunny afternoon and a cop rolled up and emptied six bullets into his friend's back.

I've also seen his interview where he's standing next to his lawyer sounding like he is reading from a teleprompter with a revised script of events (after the video was released showing what they had been up to not ten minutes earlier).

Help me out man, can you hook me up with the proof of what went down one way or the other?

Thanks :)

[\thread]

Sorry, I'm usually in the same boat as Zint and Dazey on most issues, but I've got to back up KK on this one. It's not just Michael Brown's friend, Dorian Johnson, who's account of police brutality that leads to Brown's death, but several others.

If the police officer had shot Brown during the course of the struggle then Brown's death would have caused as much attention as it has. By many accounts, Brown and his friend were running away from the officer. Eye witness accounts from individuals not involved have stated that the police officer shot at Brown and Johnson as they ran. Unless everyone but the cop is lying, then we're talking about murder. If the several eye witness accounts are accurate, then the police officer's safety is no longer at issue. Even if one wants to accept the police officer's account of a physical altercation, it has little bearing on whether the use of deadly force was justified with a fleeing suspect.

Also let's examine how the police have responded since the death. They first made a statement that the involved officer was responding to the burglary report. That statement was later rescinded, with the police acknowledging that the burglary was not a motive for why the officer stopped Brown and Johnson. Also notice how it took six days for the police to name the officer involve. And when the name was finally revealed, they paired with the robbery video that had nothing to do with why the involved police officer stopped Brown and Johnson. We've also seen the police's complete over-reaction to demonstrators that has escalated the situation in Ferguson to the fever pitch it exists today.

Look, I'm sure Brown was no angel and probably threw a lot of attitude towards the cop's direction when the cop made the initial stop. But based on what we know so far (and CNN does a pretty count job covering this here), it's highly probable that we're talking about a incident of police brutality that resulted in a young man's death. I'm sure more will come out, but how it looks right now, I definitely think KK's opinion better aligns itself with what happened.

Edited by downzy
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By many accounts, Brown and his friend were running away from the officer. Eye witness accounts from individuals not involved have stated that the police officer shot at Brown and Johnson as they ran. Unless everyone but the cop is lying, then we're talking about murder. If the several eye witness accounts are accurate, then the police officer's safety is no longer at issue. Even if one wants to accept the police officer's account of a physical altercation, it has little bearing on whether the use of deadly force was justified with a fleeing suspect.

The autopsy report clearly indicates that Brown was shot in the front of the body! That is conclusive proof that all those "eyewitnesses" are liars with an agenda.

Also let's examine how the police have responded since the death. They first made a statement that the involved officer was responding to the burglary report. That statement was later rescinded, with the police acknowledging that the burglary was not a motive for why the officer stopped Brown and Johnson.

Again, the idiom "fog of war" is applicable to the streets after an action like this. There abiguities and unknowns until all the facts are gathered and that doesn't happen in a few hours.

Also notice how it took six days for the police to name the officer involve. And when the name was finally revealed, they paired with the robbery video that had nothing to do with why the involved police officer stopped Brown and Johnson.

Of course they didn't release his name. He life, and that of his family, would've been in danger by the criminal elements that have infiltrated that area. And the video? It gives insight into Brown's state of mind when confronted moments after the robbery.

...we've also seen the police's complete over-reaction to demonstrators that has escalated the situation in Ferguson to the fever pitch it exists today.

Over-reaction??? They have been rioting for over a week! I submit that the authorties have been lenient, and need to put an end to this shit. It is one thing to protest, but to have a state of anarchy in streets?

Crack down, and crack down hard! Bring in the water cannons and pepper foggers and end this. Arrest anyone that riots or breaks curfew. There is only a few hundred instigators causing most of the problems. Get them off the streets.

It would be cheaper to pay to house these criminals than it would be all the overtime for the police forces.

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Downzy, Think again,

operative word "think", instead of believing everything you read.

Your bible, CNN NEEDS this to be a white cop overreacting and shooting an unarmed black teen. ratings are through the roof.

Wouldn't the more likely scenario be the cops story that he pulled alongside "Mr." Brown and asked him and his hoodlum partner to get out of the road and onto the sidewalk,

and when they didn't and or wised off to him the officer did what any officer would and should do and went to get out of the car to confront them. "Mr." Brown stopped him from getting out of the car by holding or closing the door back on him, and by the cops story even punched him in the face through the window, he has injuries to that effect. The cop also claimed he grabbed "Mr." Browns arm and tried to hold him when he punched him, at which time "Mr." Brown tried to reach in and take his gun. Not being able to he then broke free and took off running. Now the cop is within his right to get out of the car and shoot him. Clear and present danger to the public would be described to me at least as someone willing to punch a cop and try to take his gun, I want that person off the streets, no? And as you saw in the video at the convenience store "Mr." Brown doesn't like to be challenged, he turns and confronts his challengers. And in this case he comes running like a wild man toward an armed man. results may vary if you do that.

Edited by shades
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By many accounts, Brown and his friend were running away from the officer. Eye witness accounts from individuals not involved have stated that the police officer shot at Brown and Johnson as they ran. Unless everyone but the cop is lying, then we're talking about murder. If the several eye witness accounts are accurate, then the police officer's safety is no longer at issue. Even if one wants to accept the police officer's account of a physical altercation, it has little bearing on whether the use of deadly force was justified with a fleeing suspect.

The autopsy report clearly indicates that Brown was shot in the front of the body! That is conclusive proof that all those "eyewitnesses" are liars with an agenda.

Does the autopsy report indicate range fired? If the shots are point blank, then yes, it would corroborate the police's position. But many of the accounts that I've read indicate that Brown turned and faced the officer after he started firing. That would explain why the entry wounds are on the front of the body. Unless, of course, you believe that an unarmed man, having ran away from the office, made the conscientious decision to stop, turn around, and the began charging the shooting officer who had his gun drawn.

Edited by downzy
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Downzy, Think again,

operative word "think", instead of believing everything you read.

Your bible, CNN NEEDS this to be a white cop overreacting and shooting an unarmed black teen. ratings are through the roof.

Wouldn't the more likely scenario be the cops story that he pulled alongside "Mr." Brown and asked him and his hoodlum partner to get out of the road and onto the sidewalk,

and when they didn't and or wised off to him the officer did what any officer would and should do and went to get out of the car to confront them. "Mr." Brown stopped him from getting out of the car by holding or closing the door back on him, and by the cops story even punched him in the face through the window, he has injuries to that effect. The cop also claimed he grabbed "Mr." Browns arm and tried to hold him when he punched him, at which time "Mr." Brown tried to reach in and take his gun. Not being able to he then broke free and took off running. Now the cop is within his right to get out of the car and shoot him. Clear and present danger to the public would be described to me at least as someone willing to punch a cop and try to take his gun, I want that person off the streets, no? And as you saw in the video at the convenience store "Mr." Brown doesn't like to be challenged, he turns and confronts his challengers. And in this case he comes running like a wild man toward an armed man. results may vary if you do that.

Clear and present danger of an unarmed man? An unarmed man that could easily be apprehended by calling up backup? I'm not arguing that Brown might have had a few issues with authority and being challenged, but there is no "clear and present danger" of an unarmed man who is fleeing police. Unless the police officer was pursuing Brown due to his knowledge of Brown's criminal background or past transgression, a brief physical brush up with a police officer does not constitute causation for deadly force. It's why riot police do not kill demonstrators despite being targeted with violence.

Also let's examine how the police have responded since the death. They first made a statement that the involved officer was responding to the burglary report. That statement was later rescinded, with the police acknowledging that the burglary was not a motive for why the officer stopped Brown and Johnson.

Again, the idiom "fog of war" is applicable to the streets after an action like this. There abiguities and unknowns until all the facts are gathered and that doesn't happen in a few hours.

No. If shots were fired during the physical altercation between the police officer and Brown, then yes, the officer could argue that it was the "abiguities" of the situation. But police training clearly states that you do not fire on an armed man who is fleeing a scene.

Edited by downzy
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KK, can you link me to the footage of the actual incident that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Michael Brown didn't try to grab the gun, didn't shove the police car door back on the officer, didn't get in to a scrap with him through the window, didn't continue to walk brazenly down the middle of the road shouting intimidations, didn't turn around and charge the officer, because I can't seem to find it online.

Subsequently, I also can't find the footage of the actual incident that shows Michael Brown merely running away because he was scared (for being told to get on the sidewalk?).

Again, I'm not condoning nor suggesting he deserved to be shot to death, but you just seem so cocksure about the facts of what went down in the middle of that road.

I've seen his friend's initial interview where he basically said they were two local angels minding their own business, doing nothing wrong and not hurting anybody (physically or psychologically) just walking through the middle of traffic enjoying the sunny afternoon and a cop rolled up and emptied six bullets into his friend's back.

I've also seen his interview where he's standing next to his lawyer sounding like he is reading from a teleprompter with a revised script of events (after the video was released showing what they had been up to not ten minutes earlier).

Help me out man, can you hook me up with the proof of what went down one way or the other?

Thanks :)

[\thread]

Sorry, I'm usually in the same boat as Zint and Dazey on most issues, but I've got to back up KK on this one. It's not just Michael Brown's friend, Dorian Johnson, who's account of police brutality that leads to Brown's death, but several others.

If the police officer had shot Brown during the course of the struggle then Brown's death would have caused as much attention as it has. By many accounts, Brown and his friend were running away from the officer. Eye witness accounts from individuals not involved have stated that the police officer shot at Brown and Johnson as they ran. Unless everyone but the cop is lying, then we're talking about murder. If the several eye witness accounts are accurate, then the police officer's safety is no longer at issue. Even if one wants to accept the police officer's account of a physical altercation, it has little bearing on whether the use of deadly force was justified with a fleeing suspect.

Also let's examine how the police have responded since the death. They first made a statement that the involved officer was responding to the burglary report. That statement was later rescinded, with the police acknowledging that the burglary was not a motive for why the officer stopped Brown and Johnson. Also notice how it took six days for the police to name the officer involve. And when the name was finally revealed, they paired with the robbery video that had nothing to do with why the involved police officer stopped Brown and Johnson. We've also seen the police's complete over-reaction to demonstrators that has escalated the situation in Ferguson to the fever pitch it exists today.

Look, I'm sure Brown was no angel and probably threw a lot of attitude towards the cop's direction when the cop made the initial stop. But based on what we know so far (and CNN does a pretty count job covering this here), it's highly probable that we're talking about a incident of police brutality that resulted in a young man's death. I'm sure more will come out, but how it looks right now, I definitely think KK's opinion better aligns itself with what happened.

"if" "probable" "highly probable"

I would suggest that KK's opinion a few pages back of "until proven guilty" is a tad askew considering he seemingly can not provide definites as to how the series of events in the middle of that road went down. That is my initial point.

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KK, can you link me to the footage of the actual incident that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Michael Brown didn't try to grab the gun, didn't shove the police car door back on the officer, didn't get in to a scrap with him through the window, didn't continue to walk brazenly down the middle of the road shouting intimidations, didn't turn around and charge the officer, because I can't seem to find it online.

Subsequently, I also can't find the footage of the actual incident that shows Michael Brown merely running away because he was scared (for being told to get on the sidewalk?).

Again, I'm not condoning nor suggesting he deserved to be shot to death, but you just seem so cocksure about the facts of what went down in the middle of that road.

I've seen his friend's initial interview where he basically said they were two local angels minding their own business, doing nothing wrong and not hurting anybody (physically or psychologically) just walking through the middle of traffic enjoying the sunny afternoon and a cop rolled up and emptied six bullets into his friend's back.

I've also seen his interview where he's standing next to his lawyer sounding like he is reading from a teleprompter with a revised script of events (after the video was released showing what they had been up to not ten minutes earlier).

Help me out man, can you hook me up with the proof of what went down one way or the other?

Thanks :)

[\thread]

Sorry, I'm usually in the same boat as Zint and Dazey on most issues, but I've got to back up KK on this one. It's not just Michael Brown's friend, Dorian Johnson, who's account of police brutality that leads to Brown's death, but several others.

If the police officer had shot Brown during the course of the struggle then Brown's death would have caused as much attention as it has. By many accounts, Brown and his friend were running away from the officer. Eye witness accounts from individuals not involved have stated that the police officer shot at Brown and Johnson as they ran. Unless everyone but the cop is lying, then we're talking about murder. If the several eye witness accounts are accurate, then the police officer's safety is no longer at issue. Even if one wants to accept the police officer's account of a physical altercation, it has little bearing on whether the use of deadly force was justified with a fleeing suspect.

Also let's examine how the police have responded since the death. They first made a statement that the involved officer was responding to the burglary report. That statement was later rescinded, with the police acknowledging that the burglary was not a motive for why the officer stopped Brown and Johnson. Also notice how it took six days for the police to name the officer involve. And when the name was finally revealed, they paired with the robbery video that had nothing to do with why the involved police officer stopped Brown and Johnson. We've also seen the police's complete over-reaction to demonstrators that has escalated the situation in Ferguson to the fever pitch it exists today.

Look, I'm sure Brown was no angel and probably threw a lot of attitude towards the cop's direction when the cop made the initial stop. But based on what we know so far (and CNN does a pretty count job covering this here), it's highly probable that we're talking about a incident of police brutality that resulted in a young man's death. I'm sure more will come out, but how it looks right now, I definitely think KK's opinion better aligns itself with what happened.

"if" "probable" "highly probable"

I would suggest that KK's opinion a few pages back of "until proven guilty" is a tad askew considering he seemingly can not provide definites as to how the series of events in the middle of that road went down. That is my initial point.

Well, there is no conclusive video footage of the event. That you are correct.

But since we're just a bunch of assholes writing on an internet forum and (hopefully) not part of the jury, let's not be disingenuous and act like the accounts of both sides hold up equally as well to scrutiny.

If we are to believe the police's version, we'd have to discount the testimony of several eye witnesses. We'd also have to accept the possibility that someone would turn and charge a police officer who has their gun drawn. Is is possible that everyone but the cops is lying and that Brown was a maniac who thought he could dodge bullets? I guess. Is it likely? To me, not much.

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No. If shots were fired during the physical altercation between the police officer and Brown, then yes, the officer could argue that it was the "abiguities" of the situation. But police training clearly states that you do not fire on an armed man who is fleeing a scene.

This is America man, if a cop tells you to stop and you keep running he can shoot you if he wants to.

Usually he won't if there hasn't been an encounter of any kind, but in this case he punched the cop and a struggle ensued before he took off running.

we don't play games here.

and the 'facts' are he was shot from the front so what you are saying is "Mr." Brown stopped, put his hands up and was just surrendering?

I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale if you are interested, 100 bucks.

Edited by shades
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They have been rioting for over a week! I submit that the authorties have been lenient, and need to put an end to this shit. It is one thing to protest, but to have a state of anarchy in streets?

Crack down, and crack down hard! Bring in the water cannons and pepper foggers and end this. Arrest anyone that riots or breaks curfew. There is only a few hundred instigators causing most of the problems. Get them off the streets.

Are you saying water cannons have not been used so far? I didn't really followed this see. In my country and mostly my city those cannons would have been used right away. That's how we clean the streets when (football) rioting is going on. If they haven't been used so far, I don't get it. It's basicly the fastest and easiest way to stop riots. :shrugs:

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No. If shots were fired during the physical altercation between the police officer and Brown, then yes, the officer could argue that it was the "abiguities" of the situation. But police training clearly states that you do not fire on an armed man who is fleeing a scene.

This is America man, if a cop tells you to stop and you keep running he can shoot you if he wants to.

Usually he won't if there hasn't been an encounter of any kind, but in this case he punched the cop and a struggle ensued before he took off running.

we don't play games here.

and the 'facts' are he was shot from the front so what you are saying is "Mr." Brown stopped, put his hands up and was just surrendering?

I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale if you are interested, 100 bucks.

Yes, police aren't suppose to be firing on someone who could be easily apprehended. Why do you think cops refrain from firing their weapons at people in fleeing vehicles? Unless there is a clear and present danger of that person causing fatal harm to someone else, the police are required to use all options first prior to using deadly force. You can say, "this is America," but that's not how the laws work despite what you might think.

And yes, many eye witnesses seem to indicate that Brown had stopped and was willing to be apprehended when the officer first started shooting. The problem was, the officer never stopped until Brown had two in the head.

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