What Is Harassment?

[Dazey]

The text itself isn't physical. That's the whole point. I'm sure there could be other things that could be defined as non-verbal and non-physical harassments as well.

A text is not really relevant in this instance though as the whole issue is unwanted attention from strangers.

[Satanisk_Slakt]

Because writing something isn't illegal until someone is offended by it? I don't know. I'm no expert on laws.

The text itself isn't physical. That's the whole point. I'm sure there could be other things that could be defined as non-verbal and non-physical harassments as well.

A text is not really relevant in this instance though as the whole issue is unwanted attention from strangers.

Yeah, I was just replying to Len's question.

[Dazey]

Nobody has the right not to be offended. The right to not feel threatened is something else but being offended is a consequence of a free society.

[Len Cnut]

Nobody has the right not to be offended. The right to not feel threatened is something else but being offended is a consequence of a free society.

[Orsys]

That double negative is hurting my head.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Orsys

[Ace Nova]

Nobody has the right not to be offended. The right to not feel threatened is something else but being offended is a consequence of a free society.

So maybe that's the real debate. At what point does catcalling go from offensive to threatening?

[Len Cnut]

When the person approaches you? Invades your space? Begins to appear a threat? That last ones a bit thin.

[Orsys]

Nobody has the right not to be offended. The right to not feel threatened is something else but being offended is a consequence of a free society.

So maybe that's the real debate. At what point does catcalling go from offensive to threatening?

How about this? True story.

In my very early 20s, first job after uni, a salesman with the company walking toward me made a gesture that he was grabbing my breasts in both hands without actually grabbing them. I was completely humiliated and went to the washroom to cry.

Was that harassment? Was it threatening?

Unfortunately for him it was witnessed by a customer. The guy got fired. Thing is it was not because of the gesture, but because the gesture happened in front of customers.

[Len Cnut]

Yes, thats harassment, thats being a proper bastard...why the fuck did he do that, the dickhead, what could that have possibly achieved for him. And I'm sorry too Orsys, sounds a right nobhead.

[Facekicker]

I don't think anyone would condone that kind of thing.

[Dazey]

Nobody has the right not to be offended. The right to not feel threatened is something else but being offended is a consequence of a free society.

So maybe that's the real debate. At what point does catcalling go from offensive to threatening?

How about this? True story.

In my very early 20s, first job after uni, a salesman with the company walking toward me made a gesture that he was grabbing my breasts in both hands without actually grabbing them. I was completely humiliated and went to the washroom to cry.

Was that harassment? Was it threatening?

Unfortunately for him it was witnessed by a customer. The guy got fired. Thing is it was not because of the gesture, but because the gesture happened in front of customers.

Clearly harassment, clearly threatening and he got what was coming to him. That's really obvious though isn't it?

[Facekicker]

Nobody has the right not to be offended. The right to not feel threatened is something else but being offended is a consequence of a free society.

“Nobody has the right to not be offended. That right doesn't exist in any declaration I have ever read.

If you are offended it is your problem, and frankly lots of things offend lots of people." - Salman Rushdie

[Orsys]

See? We're not so far apart on this.

Now what if he did that while I was walking down the street?

Edited November 7, 2014 by Orsys

[Facekicker]

See? We're not so far apart on this.

Now what if he did that while I was walking down the street?

You must have missed the multiple posts made then where we already stated that behaviour like that is unacceptable.

It's not the same as saying Hi or Good Morning and anyone that makes that assertion, as they have in this thread, is a certifiable fucking lunatic.

[bran]

Nobody has the right not to be offended. The right to not feel threatened is something else but being offended is a consequence of a free society.

So maybe that's the real debate. At what point does catcalling go from offensive to threatening?

How about this? True story.

In my very early 20s, first job after uni, a salesman with the company walking toward me made a gesture that he was grabbing my breasts in both hands without actually grabbing them. I was completely humiliated and went to the washroom to cry.

Was that harassment? Was it threatening?

Unfortunately for him it was witnessed by a customer. The guy got fired. Thing is it was not because of the gesture, but because the gesture happened in front of customers.

that is definitely harassment, that person is a sick bastard.

[MB.]

You know what the problem is, some have really bad experiences with men harassing them on the streets or know somebody who has. I think the ones who live(d) in a city all have. It influences your opinion a lot. Some guys here can get angry about those opions, but that will probably not change somebody's way of thinking, cause that is led by fear or experience. It's serious business to many women. What Orsys told for example, did happen to me actually when walking the streets and not only my breasts and it was not pretending but for real and out of nowhere. I looked normal, no tight clothes nothing. He passed me, grabbed me and walked away. I was 16 years old and just in shock. But that actually happened to more women I know.

See Adrift for example didn't share other females opinions, but she never experienced some serious harassment. Most other females on here seem to have or know somebody who has, which unfortunately have changed the way of thinking. The whole time women on here were sharing personal experiences or feelings, which are swept away, cause it's not rational in some guys eyes. However to some women it is very rational, learned by experiences the hard way. I even don't know any female in my surrounding who hasn't been severly harassed (followed by a guy shouting vulgair stuff, grabbed in tits, pushed in a corner to listen to inappropriate proposels and much worse). So when some of those females are cat called, followed, stared at, they get defensive, angry or stressed way sooner, than somebody as Adrift for example.

And that's why this whole discussion is so sensitive and hard to have. We were basicly asking to be aware of that and why approaching a female, cat call her, compliment her on the streets, can cause distress by some, while with others it will not. Not always, not with everybody, not everywhere, but with city girls probably more often. And that's probably of influence as well why some don't like to be adressed, just cause being a female when walking the streets of to work.

Like I said, to you guys it sounds totally irrational. But to many females it's actually is very rational..

Edited November 7, 2014 by MB.

[bran]

See? We're not so far apart on this.

Now what if he did that while I was walking down the street?

if it was on the street it is still harassment, and disgusting. what has made this thread go 50+ pages has been the assertion that someone saying good morning or hello is still somehow harassment, every person on here has said stuff you described is disgusting and unacceptable.

[Orsys]

See? We're not so far apart on this.

Now what if he did that while I was walking down the street?

You must have missed the multiple posts made then where we already stated that behaviour like that is unacceptable.

It's not the same as saying Hi or Good Morning and anyone that makes that assertion, as they have in this thread, is a certifiable fucking lunatic.

Okay, unacceptable. But should it be illegal?

[magisme]

You know what the problem is, some have really bad experiences with men harassing them on the streets or know somebody who has. I think the ones who live(d) in a city all have. It influences your opinion a lot. Some guys here can get angry about those opions, but that will probably not change somebody's way of thinking, cause that is led by fear or experience. It's serious business to many women. What Orsys told for example, did happen to me actually when walking the streets and not only my breasts and it was not pretending but for real and out of nowhere. I looked normal, no tight clothes nothing. He passed me, grabbed me and walked away. I was 16 years old and just in shock. But that actually happened to more women I know.

See Adrift for example didn't share other females opinions, but she never experienced some serious harassment. Most other females on here seem to have or know somebody who has, which unfortunately have changed the way of thinking. The whole time women on here were sharing personal experiences or feelings, which are swept away, cause it's not rational in some guys eyes. However to some women it is very rational, learned by experiences the hard way. I even don't know any female in my surrounding who hasn't been severly harassed (followed by a guy shouting vulgair stuff, grabbed in tits, pushed in a corner to listen to inappropriate proposels and much worse). So when some of those females are cat called, followed, stared at, they get defensive, angry or stressed way sooner, than somebody as Adrift for example.

And that's why this whole discussion is so sensitive and hard to have. We were basicly asking to be aware of that and why approaching a female, cat call her, compliment her on the streets, can cause distress by some, while with others it will not. Not always, not with everybody, not everywhere, but with city girls probably more often. And that's probably of influence as well why some don't like to be adressed, just cause being a female when walking the streets of to work.

Like I said, to you guys it sounds totally irrational. But to many females it's actually is very rational. .

Those feelings don't sound irrational at all to me, MB. And, frankly, I can't really imagine how awful they must be. What sounds irrational - and that's not even the right word for it, more like shortsighted and ethically unsound and reactionary, among other things - are the steps some want to take to avoid the distress and the equivalences drawn by some when we're talking about a wide range of interactions (from "hello" to pseudo-stalking/physical assault).

[Roush]

Like I said, to you guys it sounds totally irrational. But to many females it's actually is very rational. .

Except no male in this thread has said women feeling discomfort from catcalling is irrational. Nor is any male angry, or feeling 'attacked'. On the contrary, we completely understood you all the first dozen times you said it. And the second dozen times you complained on top of that. It is the way you're airing your grievances, and the illusion that the men in this thread are being somehow unreasonable. If anything, they're a whole lot more patient than I am.

These are the issues you ladies are not acknowledging:

1.) The double standard where only men are physically capable of aggressing sexually harassment. Why is that? Is it because society typically views men as horny animals? Do you not see the hypocrisy, and social retardation in maintaining that view -- or have I already lost you?

2.) Why legislation is an answer to being accosted in the street (this is more directed at P4A, who for all intents and purposes is a wee bit off her rocker.) Because who would the law protect? Just women, or also men? What about gay dudes, lesbians, and transvestites? Or are only women capable of being sexually harassed? And what if a dude gets his wee knocked off, and gets titties. Is he now given the same treatment as women, or is that superpower only for original double-X-ers?

3.) Why are we acting like this video is in any way, shape, or form -- meant to be taken seriously? It's a lady in booty shorts getting hollered at by a bunch of homeless dudes in the biggest, rowdiest city in the Untied States. It's made by a company called Hollaback, run by a dude, and the actress has already been discredited as being a flirtatious git.

At best, this video is a stellar example of the gullibility, stupidity, and hysterical nature of 21st Century Westerners.

[Apollo]

Nobody has the right not to be offended. The right to not feel threatened is something else but being offended is a consequence of a free society.

Exactly.

[Facekicker]

See? We're not so far apart on this.

Now what if he did that while I was walking down the street?

You must have missed the multiple posts made then where we already stated that behaviour like that is unacceptable.

It's not the same as saying Hi or Good Morning and anyone that makes that assertion, as they have in this thread, is a certifiable fucking lunatic.

Okay, unacceptable. But should it be illegal?

Legislation surrounding gestures is complicated. Gestures have different meanings depending on the culture. Flipping someone off for example, while offensive and possibly deemed to be threatening, is protected under free speech laws.

[MB.]

Roush, my first post in this thread

Btw, it totally works the other way around as well, women shouting at guys. I even once had a fight over it with female friends. They thought it was 'different' cause less intimidating. But the guy in question felt just as awkward

The vid, is NY. I live on the other side of the world. My experience is like Lio's vid. Here it is not only in the rowdiest cities or rowdiest area's

Besides the vid is not the only vid on the net, you will find many more and made way earlier. But at least it brought some awerness.

It's not only westerners. You do your search on the net and you will find many more women protesting against this all over the world.

[bran]

its just that most men aren't doing these things, the vast majority of men understand women have to have their guard up, women have to face horrific things at much larger rate than men and unfortunately at a young age. so we know women have to have this natural guard and there are boundaries that most women have. we fully respect that, its why most of us men do not do these things. touching, unwanted calls, lewd gestures and creepy stares in unacceptable and is harassment and no women should have to worry about those things, all men in this thread have stated this many times.

the problem is now the boundaries are getting skewed and seem to move on a day to day basis. when a simple hello or eye contact or something so simple as holding a door open for a women is somehow harassment and is the equivalent of cat calling or doing some kind of lewd gesture, there is something amiss. now it almost seems men have to be some kind of mind readers or be labeled as some kind of creep for something most people would probably think of innocent or just simple human interaction. this is where there is a big gap between the two opposing sides in this thread.

MB and all other women in this thread no one is angry at you or think that 99% of what you are saying is irrational, it is that 1% that we feel lost, especially when saying hello or good morning to women(or any sex really) is a daily thing.

[Ace Nova]

All joking aside, I think most of the members that have posted in this thread agree more than disagree. I know I've said some outlandish things, but some of my statements were questions as much as they were statements. (Mostly the GN'R AFD stuff).

Many times, things don't translate well on message boards and I think with topics like this, it tends to happen a lot... and it has happened a lot in this thread. If you go back and read the thread from the beginning, you can see that a lot of the disagreements were a result of miscommunication. I know I've been misquoted several times in this thread as have most of the members that have posted in it.

That being said, I think we need to chill out with the personal attacks. This is obviously a very sensitive topic (as demonstrated by the insane amount of attention it has received in a week's time). I'm all about the jokes, etc...and I've said my fair share, but there comes a point when the jokes begin to cross the line... let's not go there, I think we're better than that. That's all....

Carry on.

See? We're not so far apart on this.
Now what if he did that while I was walking down the street?

You must have missed the multiple posts made then where we already stated that behaviour like that is unacceptable.

It's not the same as saying Hi or Good Morning and anyone that makes that assertion, as they have in this thread, is a certifiable fucking lunatic.

Okay, unacceptable. But should it be illegal?

Legislation surrounding gestures is complicated. Gestures have different meanings depending on the culture. Flipping someone off for example, while offensive and possibly deemed to be threatening, is protected under free speech laws.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Kasanova King