What Is Harassment?

[magisme]

OK. Please shut up now and let the adults talk.

[Facekicker]

Wait. Is that the girl from the video?

Yep. She's an actress whose social media presence is largely defined by the amount of cleavage baring selfies posted to garner attention from...strange men she doesn't know.

This gets even better but I'm gonna drag this out its so good

[magisme]

So good.

[Apollo]

Why should she have to walk around smiling. Maybe she has an lot on her mind, women get told to smile all the time by random men. It used to happen and lot when I was out on my own without kids. Why should I walk around like a gurning idiot? No one is telling the men to smile whilst they are going about their business or enjoying some peace in a park or cafe or waiting for an friend to arrive in a bar.

Striking up a proper conversation is fine but yelling out or passing comment just gets old very quick. As a female you very quickly from a young age become aware of this stuff and start to develop a radar. For every 9 out of 10 of these guys they are harmless and annoying but there's always one who goes too far. I remember being a teenager, waiting for an friend at a bar, I ordered a drink and this guy starts on the whole smile darling thing, I give him a polite brush off then next thing he just grabs me hard right in the crotch. With hindsight I should have smacked him round the head and reported but being 17 I was so shocked someone would do that so publicly I just legged it out.

Seriously this kind of crap stays with you and you become wary and more stand offish. I think I've said this before but by the time I was my early twenties I didn't have a single female friend who hadn't been subjected to some form of harassment or assault whether it be mild, such as cat calling or flashing right through to serious assault and rape.

I can see why basically nice guys who want to get a girls attention don't see the issue. They wouldn't because they don't live as or think like an girl.

You were drinking at bars at age 17?

[alfierose]

Why should she have to walk around smiling. Maybe she has an lot on her mind, women get told to smile all the time by random men. It used to happen and lot when I was out on my own without kids. Why should I walk around like a gurning idiot? No one is telling the men to smile whilst they are going about their business or enjoying some peace in a park or cafe or waiting for an friend to arrive in a bar.

Striking up a proper conversation is fine but yelling out or passing comment just gets old very quick. As a female you very quickly from a young age become aware of this stuff and start to develop a radar. For every 9 out of 10 of these guys they are harmless and annoying but there's always one who goes too far. I remember being a teenager, waiting for an friend at a bar, I ordered a drink and this guy starts on the whole smile darling thing, I give him a polite brush off then next thing he just grabs me hard right in the crotch. With hindsight I should have smacked him round the head and reported but being 17 I was so shocked someone would do that so publicly I just legged it out.

Seriously this kind of crap stays with you and you become wary and more stand offish. I think I've said this before but by the time I was my early twenties I didn't have a single female friend who hadn't been subjected to some form of harassment or assault whether it be mild, such as cat calling or flashing right through to serious assault and rape.

I can see why basically nice guys who want to get a girls attention don't see the issue. They wouldn't because they don't live as or think like an girl.

You were drinking at bars at age 17?

I was drinking in bars from age 13. It wasn't unusual for UK culture at that time, I certainly wasn't unique. It's not really relevant though, doesn't give someone the right to assault you, besides I had only just arrived so wasn't even drinking at that point.

[Apollo]

BUT she doesn't let what other people say effect how she chooses to feel.

That's pretty key...Most people don't / can't / don't even know it's possible to have full control of their emotion if they work on it.

I'd even say this is at the core of most problems people encounter with one another.

Exactly!!!

People that are often offended about everything usually are looking to be offended.

I'm just glad I live in a city where people don't get offended if a stranger hands them a compliment. And where men aren't considered creeps and rapists if they tell a woman that she looks nice.

[Apollo]

It's funny, two days ago I was talking with my girlfriend on the phone, she was on her break from work, walking down the street and then, all of sudden, she went "fucking prick, little piece of shit, go fuck yourself!" and I was like "what the f...?" and she said "did you hear that?", "no, I didn't" I said, "this fucking ugly motherfucker said "hello" to me!", and I said "well, that's only "hello", what's the problem?", "no, not "only hello", who gave him the right to talk to me? why is he trying to talk to a complete stranger? why? I mean, I'm even wearing my uniform, seriously?", and I replied "oh well, I don't know, people are crazy, ignore them, just don't insult people."

While I think her reaction was a bit over the top, I guess girls are just too tired of the same shit happening again and again. Actually, it wasn't the first time my girlfriend complained about something like that.

I don't know, maybe that's why we, males, don't understand this.

You are my boy - so don't get offended by this question!

She said the "ugly" guy said that to her. Did the guy's appearance make a difference?

Haven't we all seen that situation happen a million times?

The anger/acceptance level of a compliment from a stranger is often determined by how attractive the stranger is. If a extremely handsome, well dressed, sophisticated looking guy says "Hello. You look radiant today" does the girl go off on him like she would if some unattractive scruffy guy in sweats and a hoody said the same thing?

In one case she brags to her girlfriends. In the other.......she yells and says some ugly guy was harassing her.

(Not saying your gf does this Nosaj - just saying I've seen it happen before).

Wait. Is that the girl from the video?

Yep. She's an actress whose social media presence is largely defined by the amount of cleavage baring selfies posted to garner attention from...strange men she doesn't know.

This gets even better but I'm gonna drag this out its so good

HOLY COW............this pretty much negates her entire point from the video doesn't it?

Why should she have to walk around smiling. Maybe she has an lot on her mind, women get told to smile all the time by random men. It used to happen and lot when I was out on my own without kids. Why should I walk around like a gurning idiot? No one is telling the men to smile whilst they are going about their business or enjoying some peace in a park or cafe or waiting for an friend to arrive in a bar.

Striking up a proper conversation is fine but yelling out or passing comment just gets old very quick. As a female you very quickly from a young age become aware of this stuff and start to develop a radar. For every 9 out of 10 of these guys they are harmless and annoying but there's always one who goes too far. I remember being a teenager, waiting for an friend at a bar, I ordered a drink and this guy starts on the whole smile darling thing, I give him a polite brush off then next thing he just grabs me hard right in the crotch. With hindsight I should have smacked him round the head and reported but being 17 I was so shocked someone would do that so publicly I just legged it out.

Seriously this kind of crap stays with you and you become wary and more stand offish. I think I've said this before but by the time I was my early twenties I didn't have a single female friend who hadn't been subjected to some form of harassment or assault whether it be mild, such as cat calling or flashing right through to serious assault and rape.

I can see why basically nice guys who want to get a girls attention don't see the issue. They wouldn't because they don't live as or think like an girl.

You were drinking at bars at age 17?

I was drinking in bars from age 13. It wasn't unusual for UK culture at that time, I certainly wasn't unique. It's not really relevant though, doesn't give someone the right to assault you, besides I had only just arrived so wasn't even drinking at that point.

I just asked a simple question as the drinking age in the US is 21. You said you were drinking at a bar at age 17. That would be illegal in the US.

Not one word was mentioned about it somehow tying into people having the right to assault you.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Groghan

[alfierose]

So even though all the women on this thread including Nosaj's girlfriend have said categorically they don't like receiving attention in the street the male concensus is that we are just going to ignore what they think. I guess a woman's opinion doesn't matter as long a man gets to carry on doing what he's always done. How many women's voices would count, 10, 100, 1000, 10,0000? We clearly don't know our own minds.

#patriarchy

I'm going to bow out now to go think about kittens.

[magisme]

See, Alfie, that's the bullshit that bothers me about this whole thing. You can't make blanket comments like that. Difference matters. Both in the women's opinions and in the men's actions. Not every woman in this thread has said the same thing. Not every guy in the video does the same thing. And I don't do the same thing as any of the guys in the video. Again, difference matters. But I guess we'd rather everyone just left everyone else alone. Nice world to live in.

[Nosaj Thing]

It's funny, two days ago I was talking with my girlfriend on the phone, she was on her break from work, walking down the street and then, all of sudden, she went "fucking prick, little piece of shit, go fuck yourself!" and I was like "what the f...?" and she said "did you hear that?", "no, I didn't" I said, "this fucking ugly motherfucker said "hello" to me!", and I said "well, that's only "hello", what's the problem?", "no, not "only hello", who gave him the right to talk to me? why is he trying to talk to a complete stranger? why? I mean, I'm even wearing my uniform, seriously?", and I replied "oh well, I don't know, people are crazy, ignore them, just don't insult people."

While I think her reaction was a bit over the top, I guess girls are just too tired of the same shit happening again and again. Actually, it wasn't the first time my girlfriend complained about something like that.

I don't know, maybe that's why we, males, don't understand this.

You are my boy - so don't get offended by this question!

She said the "ugly" guy said that to her. Did the guy's appearance make a difference?

Haven't we all seen that situation happen a million times?

The anger/acceptance level of a compliment from a stranger is often determined by how attractive the stranger is. If a extremely handsome, well dressed, sophisticated looking guy says "Hello. You look radiant today" does the girl go off on him like she would if some unattractive scruffy guy in sweats and a hoody said the same thing?

In one case she brags to her girlfriends. In the other.......she yells and says some ugly guy was harassing her.

(Not saying your gf does this Nosaj - just saying I've seen it happen before).

No offense taken. Actually, like I said, I didn't agree with her reaction at all. I kind of told her she was exaggerating but I tried - for a second - to "think" like a girl, if that's possible.

Yeah, most of the time the situation changes if the guy who is complimenting them is extremely hot or extremely ugly. Then, all of the sudden, the situation is different. I mean, tell Leonardo DiCaprio to go fuck himself!

It's just like someone said in this Spanish TV Show I used to watch "If he was handsome I wouldn't say he was harassing me, I would say I hooked up." Makes complete sense now.

[magisme]

I should add that of the three women irl I've spoken to about this today, 2 of them agreed with me for the most part, so 3-4 women on a GNR forum does not a consensus make.

[The Glow Inc.]

But I guess we'd rather everyone just left everyone else alone. Nice world to live in.

Yeah.

People feel more comfortable calling strangers names on the internet than getting a hello from a stranger in the street.

[Patience 4 Axl]

Good responses ladies. I agree with much of what you girls had to say. As for the guys, you're clueless.

The video is accurate. It happens everyday, multiple times a day, to just about any female who happens to be walking down the street minding her own business. Is it harassment? By definition, yes. Everything shown in that video has happened to me and worse.

Tell me guys, do you normally step outside your home and expect you'll be addressed by random strangers often? I'm specifically talking NYC , not some little butfuck town where everyone says hello, not just to the pretty girls, but to the little old ladies and the soccer moms and the postman. There are 8 million people here and we don't exactly have the reputation of being the friendliest place on earth, yet it's funny how friendly guys can become merely because a female happens to pass in their line of vision. It boggles the mind, some act like they've never seen one before.

I guarantee you that if she walked through Wall Street and the more affluent areas of the city she would have a very different video.

So not true. Yes, it's obvious she's not walking down Park Ave in that video but it doesn't matter. I worked blocks away from Wall St for several years, near court houses and the financial district. Lawyers, stock brokers, bankers, they're all fuckin pigs. The only difference is what they're wearing.

We're seriously saying a man can't tell a woman she looks beautiful? That's what we're going with?

I'm not even going to address the people who have a problem with hellos. FFS.

If it's not a big deal, why aren't they saying hello to other men? Why not tell some random guy he's wearing a nice suit? No, of course not. Why, because of the intention behind that hello or that compliment. You must think women are idiots. A guy isn't paying attention to me because I graduated with honors from college or I donate to charities.. They're not saying hello because they think I'm a nice person, or smart or funny. The only thing he sees is tits and ass. I'm nothing more than a vagina in heels. Newsflash gentlemen - We KNOW that, and that's the problem. The hidden agenda behind the comments aren't really all that hidden.

[MB.]

But I guess we'd rather everyone just left everyone else alone. Nice world to live in.

Yeah.

People feel more comfortable calling strangers names on the internet than getting a hello from a stranger in the street.

You know, most women posting in this thread have stated to have no problem with 'hello' and most have never called people on this forum names.

I just needed to say it.

We do greet people in my country, that's a normal thing here. So that's not the issue at all.

But also this:

We're seriously saying a man can't tell a woman she looks beautiful? That's what we're going with?

I'm not even going to address the people who have a problem with hellos. FFS.

If it's not a big deal, why aren't they saying hello to other men? Why not tell some random guy he's wearing a nice suit? No, of course not. Why, because of the intention behind that hello or that compliment. You must think women are idiots. A guy isn't paying attention to me because I graduated with honors from college or I donate to charities.. They're not saying hello because they think I'm a nice person, or smart or funny. The only thing he sees is tits and ass. I'm nothing more than a vagina in heels. Newsflash gentlemen - We KNOW that, and that's the problem. The hidden agenda behind the comments aren't really all that hidden.

Edited November 1, 2014 by MB.

[magisme]

Yeah, P4A, I'm pretty much banking on the fact that they know I'm addressing them as a hetero man. I'm not an idiot either. It's not a bad thing. And I've literally never had a woman take offense that I can remember.

[Satanisk_Slakt]

Great response, P4A, I concur.

[The Glow Inc.]

But I guess we'd rather everyone just left everyone else alone. Nice world to live in.

Yeah.

People feel more comfortable calling strangers names on the internet than getting a hello from a stranger in the street.

You know, most women posting in this thread have stated to have no problem with 'hello' and most have never called people on this forum names.

I just needed to say it.

We do greet people in my country, that's a normal thing here. So that's not the issue at all.

But also this:

We're seriously saying a man can't tell a woman she looks beautiful? That's what we're going with?

I'm not even going to address the people who have a problem with hellos. FFS.

If it's not a big deal, why aren't they saying hello to other men? Why not tell some random guy he's wearing a nice suit? No, of course not. Why, because of the intention behind that hello or that compliment. You must think women are idiots. A guy isn't paying attention to me because I graduated with honors from college or I donate to charities.. They're not saying hello because they think I'm a nice person, or smart or funny. The only thing he sees is tits and ass. I'm nothing more than a vagina in heels. Newsflash gentlemen - We KNOW that, and that's the problem. The hidden agenda behind the comments aren't really all that hidden.

It wasn't about this thread specifically. It was in response to magisme's "nice world" comment.

Maybe it's just me but people DO seem to feel more comfortable calling people names on the internet than giving or receving a hello from a stranger in the street.

I'd say that it, in itself, is pretty fucked up.

[magisme]

I've never been more happy that real life isn't like the internet.

[Facekicker]

I think the most disturbing thing about this video (besides the implicit racism) and the ensuing conversation is that the national, even international, reaction has taken a narrative where all men are being portrayed as "rapists in waiting" or "potential rapists."

It is becoming an increasingly common narrative in western media bordering on some kind of rape hysteria.

It appears to be pushing an agenda whereby men are almost being shamed for being heterosexual and that any interaction they have with a woman should only come in a manner dictated entirely by the woman. Otherwise the man is a threat.

The dominant message being disseminated is also one whereby violence against women automatically supersedes violence against men, in terms of the media attention and priority and dare I say importance.

This is despite the fact that as a male you are far more likely to be a victim of street violence, multiplied greatly if you are a young black male.

In fact, the message in America if you are a young black male is that you are completely worthless and disposable.

[The Glow Inc.]

I suppose it also comes from this idea that relationships // love // sex are very serious matters that should not, under any circumstance, be any fun and that spontaneity completely ruins them.

Also women completely hate sex. They are asexual beings who loathe flesh completely. They should not be approached at all, ever.

That's bullshit of course...

In my opinion, it all comes down to subcomunnication : if a guy approaches a girl and feels very confident, playful and detached when he does it, he won't be creepy and the girl will probably enjoy the interaction even if she is already taken or not interested.

[Apollo]

I think the most disturbing thing about this video (besides the implicit racism) and the ensuing conversation is that the national, even international, reaction has taken a narrative where all men are being portrayed as "rapists in waiting" or "potential rapists."

It is becoming an increasingly common narrative in western media bordering on some kind of rape hysteria.

It appears to be pushing an agenda whereby men are almost being shamed for being heterosexual and that any interaction they have with a woman should only come in a manner dictated entirely by the woman. Otherwise the man is a threat.

The dominant message being disseminated is also one whereby violence against women automatically supersedes violence against men, in terms of the media attention and priority and dare I say importance.

This is despite the fact that as a male you are far more likely to be a victim of street violence, multiplied greatly if you are a young black male.

In fact, the message in America if you are a young black male is that you are completely worthless and disposable.

When I tell somebody (male or female) that they look nice or give them a compliment it's because I think they look nice. It isn't because I'm trying to sleep with them or set them up to be raped.

If that's how people act in big cities..........no thanks. You guys can have them.

OH CRAP

Last night at the grocery store I started a conversation with a complete stranger. She had a piercing in the back of her neck, which I'd never seen before. I asked how much it hurt and what prompted her to do it. She answered. Then commented on the hoodie I was wearing - Kansas Jayhawks - turns out she just graduated from UK and moved to my city for a job. We chatted in the past isle for a couple minutes. Pleasant conversation. Attractive woman. I complimented her on how she was dressed.

Does this mean she went home and told all her friends about being harassed and that she was in fear that I was trying to sleep with or rape her?

I feel like such a jerk now for being friendly.

[Aaron_H]

I was just reminded of when I walked from my car the other day and this little old lady said "hi, nice weather isn't it?" (a particularly rare thing, recently) - did I have a problem with her saying that? No. I'm not sure why exchanging pleasantries is a bad thing. (Not that all of the comments in that video were pleasant, though).

Edited November 1, 2014 by Aaron_H

[magisme]

I was just reminded of when I walked from my car the other day and this little old lady said "hi, nice weather isn't it?" (a particularly rare thing, recently) - did I have a problem with her saying that? No. I'm not sure why exchanging pleasantries is a bad thing. (Not that all of the comments in that video were pleasant, though).

You came so close to getting raped by a little old lady.

[Nosaj Thing]

I remember I was in the supermarket the other day and the cashier girl was very beautiful, at least in my opinion. I think she was new because when she accidentally dropped the shampoo I was buying, she got nervous but I smiled and said "don't worry, Graciela. Nobody noticed! Nice name, by the way!" and left.

Should I feel like I was harassing her? I would like to know.

[MB.]

That are not the remarks we are talking about here. Checking out somebody's ass in a very obvious way, walking along, saying stuff like nice ass, hello little lady, getting angry when not smiling back, stuff like that is the problem.