What Is Harassment?

[Facekicker]

Isn't it amazing that out of a city of over 7million this lady was able to walk around for 10 hours in the worst areas and that two minutes was the worst footage they filmed.

All I can think of is this.

"Imagine seven million people all wanting to live together. Yeah, New York must be the friendliest place on earth."

[GivenToFly]

Honestly, I 'm so glad I'm not a woman. Between all this shit and menstruation and child birth and society's general attitude and sexism it just seems like living hell.

It's not just this video, I've seen this approached before in different contexts. Apparently this is basically everyday life for women. I'm not a social person in general as it is but seriously if I had to deal with this every time I was out I wouldn't leave the house at all.

As for the whole "they're just saying hello" thing, it's just that. Listen to the way they say it, it's just sleaze dripping off their voices, it's disgusting.

And I totally get how it's annoying. It's the repetition of it. Every fucking hour of every fucking day. I remember some years back, I grew up in a pretty conservative town n provincial Romania. And for a couple of years in high school I wore long hair. Guys with long hair in that area are extremely rare. So everybody kept calling me Jesus. People at school, people on the street, hell even familyand friends more often than I would've liked (which is not at all!). Later on I wore a beard which is also extremely rare except for priests so people would instead call me Father or some variation. And everybody seems to think they're making a clever and original joke, except it's the 12th time you heard since this morning and it gets SO FUCKING ANNYOING you just wanna punch the next person who says in the face with a chainsaw. I'm told supermarket cashiers feels the same about the "it didn't scan the first time so it must be free" so called joke.

Something that you might let pass over you or even appreciate in small quantities just becomes sickening through repeated exposure. "Why doesn't she appreciate when she's being told she's pretty by some random guy in the street while he' licking his lips??" Well for one, because he's licking his lips, but also because being told that has lost all meaning once you've heard it literally a million times.

[Patience 4 Axl]

I should add that of the three women irl I've spoken to about this today, 2 of them agreed with me for the most part, so 3-4 women on a GNR forum does not a consensus make.

Of course, there are definitely some women who need people to pay attention to them. We don't all have self esteem issues however. Believe it or not, there are actually women out there who are quite confident and don't need a desperate stranger to validate them.

Yeah, P4A, I'm pretty much banking on the fact that they know I'm addressing them as a hetero man. I'm not an idiot either. It's not a bad thing. And I've literally never had a woman take offense that I can remember.

Well you are an idiot if you think women should welcome your comments as if we just won the fuckin lottery. Oh swoon, lonely guy who isn't getting laid thinks I'm hot. You're joking, right? Being a hetero male doesn't work in your favor either, fyi. I'd take a gay guy complimenting me on how my ass looks in a pair of jeans any day. Women don't want just a compliment, they want a sincere compliment. And they don't need a stranger to say hello, when they know he'll be doing the same thing to every pair of tits that crosses his path. You could be the nicest guy in the world, but in my eyes you've just entered the sleaze zone. If you're doing it to me, you're doing it to everyone else. It's not being friendly, we know you just need to get fucked. It's a huge turnoff. And how on earth do you know a woman has never taken offense ? You read minds? I've never told any guy to his face that I hope it rots and falls off, doesn't mean I haven't thought it.

[magisme]

Amazing that you think I'd expect the girl to act like she won the lottery and immediately swoon. That says a lot. No, I'd expect that she'd act like a kind and flattered person, because that's what people do, and that's what's always happened. Holy shit. What happened to some of you as children that made you like this?

And who said anything about needing a complete stranger to validate them? I don't even know what you're talking about. You sure you're not trying to convince yourself?

[Ketan]

being subjected to unsolicited objectification and then made aware of it should probably constitute harassment. As normal as it might be for men to sexualize every pretty girl that we see, i think the real perversity lie in the act of telling her they she has been the object of their sexualization while she was out for a walk on the street.

What is this entitlement some men seem to have that if a girl is attractive to them they can very well stare at her ass and tell them they would totally hit that?

[SoulMonster]

Nah, fuck that. I don't buy into the cultural trend of "don't do anything that might bother someone else." I think that's a toxic and destructive mindset. I'm not going to tell my boys that saying, "Have a beautiful day," to a woman they find attractive is harassment. Not gonna happen.

I agree with your first sentence, but let's say that 60 % of women would find such constant attention unwelcome, wouldn't it then be right of us to refrain from doing it to them? It is really not up to me to decide what they should think is okay, that is entirely their decision, and as soon as they have made that decision I am polite enough to try to respct that.

And I don't think it is the occasional "Have a beautiful day" that is the problem here, it is the sheer amount of various comments from passers-by. I know I would not appreciate it.

Then we can have a conversation about that, where we present both sides of the experience, the woman's and the man's, and attempt to come to some understanding, because I think it's getting a lot harder for young men to figure out what they are allowed to say to girls, so many of them are just saying, "fuck it, I'll say whatever's on my mind if I'm gonna be bitched at either way," and we actually make the situation worse calling every god damn thing harassment, imo. But, like I said, a conversation, not "This is harassment! If you don't agree you're just as bad!".

Striking up conversations with girls on the streets is hard, because inevitably the chances are high they are not interested, and if many do it/you do it tactlessly you will end up annoying them or even harrassing them. So maybe just chat up girls in contexts where the girl would appreciate or expect the attention/contact?

Of course I'm not advocating tactlessness, but I'm definitely not going to side with the idea that the only times you can chat up a pretty girl are when she's expecting attention. That sounds fucking ridiculous to me.

Ladies, how about you wear a sign at all times? On one side it says, "open to male attention," and on the other, "not open to male attention." If we work hard, we can form a society where none of us speak to each other. It'll be awesome.

I am not saying you can't chat up a woman who is not inviting contact. I am saying that if you do contact a girl who is obviously not inviting to such contact, and you fail to make her happy about that encounter, that contact was not only uninvited but also unwelcome, and if many such episodes happens in short time, not only might she be annoyed by it all, she might also feel harrassed. I think it all boils down to respect. An analogy might be telemarketeers. Repeated uninvited and unwelcome phone calls from people who want to sell me insurances makes me feel annoyed and harrassed. It is that simple.

But sure, if you have James Bond qualities and believe you will be able to chat up a woman who is obviously not inviting to any contact, then you are all good. But most boys simply aren't, like this video so explicitly demonstrates.

If you are so obtuse you would need girls to wear signs that shows if they would appreciate contact or not, then you have a problem. It's all about contexts (some places we expect to be social) and letting the girl show some interest first (eye contact, a smile). A girl walking down the road with a sraight face not giving any attention to those aorund her, is obviously not inviting to any contact. If boys think it is okay to just approach any woman on the mere basis she has tits and an ass and think it is okay for them to chat her up, then I think we have a problem and it is a symptom of male chauvinism.

[Bono]

It's so damn confusing. I watched the video and like many others I only see one maybe two instances of true harrasment. All the other shit is flirting or guys takinga shot and trying to initiate something with a woman they find attractive. Yet all the "hi how are ya tonight?" and "Have a beautiful day" stuff is harrassment? And still women want men to be aggressive and make the first move but ONLY if they want you to because god forbid a man ever takes a shot and makes a move on a woman who isn't interested. We gotta be mind readers now and only approach a woman who wants us to. Fuck this shit. In my opinion bullshit like this video is making it so men can't say a word to a woman for fear of it being harrassment yet when the men don't initiate it, women will whine and think "how come guys never hit on me" Like honestly WTF? There is real harrassment that needs to be addressed and then there's fucking bullsit like this video that trivializes what true harrasment is because according to this girl and millions of others EVERYTHING is harrasment BUT if it was fucking Ryan Gossling or Brad Pitt saying these things the women would drop their panties ina second because that's hot.

This woman walked around New York City for 10 hours and had a whopping 108 incidents? Seriously? You know how many people you'd walk passed in NYC in 10 hours and she only had 108 incidents, many of which were guys just being nice and giving her a compliment.

I'm so tired of the way society is going.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Bono

[SoulMonster]

magisme opens a thread to discuss harrassment and is explicit about wanting input from women. When that input doesn't validate his own opinions he dismisses and marginalizes them. Priceless.

Edited November 1, 2014 by SoulMonster

[The Glow Inc.]

Honnestly, even though I'm not the kind of guy who initiates conversations with random girls in the street, I still have eyes and every once in a while I see women whom I find extremely beautiful and attractive.

That being said, to answer a previous post that said that "all men are pig" and that we only see "tits and ass", usually when I see those women, my train of thoughts when that happens is more along the lines of "she is amazing, what a goddess" than "what a nice piece of meat, I want to cover it in ketchup and stick my dick in it" and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. . .

And yes, usually it has more to do with their faces because let's face it, nice bodies aren't that rare.

[GivenToFly]

magisme opens a thread to discuss harrassment and is explicit about wanting input from women. When that input doesn't validate his own opinions he dismisses and marginalizes them. Priceless.

The thing you need to understand is that magisme knows everything. If you disagree with him you must be wrong, simple as that.

[Orsys]

I have experienced what that woman experienced. Honestly I find it more annoying than harassing. You just want to get on with your day. And many of the guys think they warrant a response, not aware that there are comments from numerous men. Enough already, got somewhere to go.

There are harassing comments sometimes, comments designed to make me feel uncomfortable. I always considered them trying to impose power over me with those comments, they are in control, sort of showing they own the street. I do resent that because I feel like I can only put my head down and move on quickly. I feel like they win a contest I didn't want to enter. But those types of comments are not that common.

Those guys walking along with her are out of order. That's just creepy.

[magisme]

magisme opens a thread to discuss harrassment and is explicit about wanting input from women. When that input doesn't validate his own opinions he dismisses and marginalizes them. Priceless.

The thing you need to understand is that magisme knows everything. If you disagree with him you must be wrong, simple as that.

Are you people fucking kidding me? I've been no more dismissive of others' views than anyone else. And I've continued to engage in discussion about the issue. The only thing I've dismissed out of hand is people who say saying hello is a problem. I feel OK about that. And scroll back some more and see all the names the people who agree with me and I have been called for our opinions. Apes, chauvinists, despicable, etc. Some of you people are just staggeringly awful. There's just no way around it.

And how many times have I added "IMO"? Seriously, fuck you.

[Satanisk_Slakt]

Yeah, you don't agree with me? Seriously, fuck you.

Why is it so hard to accept that giving females unwanted attention can be considered harassment?

[SoulMonster]

magisme opens a thread to discuss harrassment and is explicit about wanting input from women. When that input doesn't validate his own opinions he dismisses and marginalizes them. Priceless.

The thing you need to understand is that magisme knows everything. If you disagree with him you must be wrong, simple as that.

Are you people fucking kidding me? I've been no more dismissive of others' views than anyone else. And I've continued to engage in discussion about the issue. The only thing I've dismissed out of hand is people who say saying hello is a problem. I feel OK about that. And scroll back some more and see all the names the people who agree with me and I have been called for our opinions. Apes, chauvinists, despicable, etc. Some of you people are just staggeringly awful. There's just no way around it.

And how many times have I added "IMO"? Seriously, fuck you.

I don't think anyone has called YOU "male chauvinist", "ape" or "despicable", magisme, because, after all - like you have made it very clear in this very thread - you are a centerfold guy who have never experienced any girl react negatively to your attention. What we have been talking about, I assume, are guys who don't understand that uninvited and unwelcome attention from guys can come across as both annoying and, to some women and in some situations, especially when we add up the effects of numerous such encounters, harrassing, and that we ought to treat everybody with respect, meaning that we will do out utmost to NOT make women uncomfortable with improper attention and sleazy comments.

[magisme]

Yeah, you don't agree with me? Seriously, fuck you.

Ironically, that has nothing to do with my position on the issue (open to discussion, promoting conversation and debate) or and everything to do with yours. I don't expect you to understand that.

magisme opens a thread to discuss harrassment and is explicit about wanting input from women. When that input doesn't validate his own opinions he dismisses and marginalizes them. Priceless.

The thing you need to understand is that magisme knows everything. If you disagree with him you must be wrong, simple as that.

Are you people fucking kidding me? I've been no more dismissive of others' views than anyone else. And I've continued to engage in discussion about the issue. The only thing I've dismissed out of hand is people who say saying hello is a problem. I feel OK about that. And scroll back some more and see all the names the people who agree with me and I have been called for our opinions. Apes, chauvinists, despicable, etc. Some of you people are just staggeringly awful. There's just no way around it.

And how many times have I added "IMO"? Seriously, fuck you.

I don't think anyone has called YOU "male chauvinist", "ape" or "despicable", magisme, because, after all - like you have made it very clear in this very thread - you are a centerfold guy who have never experienced any girl react negatively to your attention. What we have been talking about, I assume, are guys who don't understand that uninvited and unwelcome attention from guys can come across as both annoying and, to some women and in some situations, especially when we add up the effects of numerous such encounters, harrassing, and that we ought to treat everybody with respect, meaning that we will do out utmost to NOT make women uncomfortable with improper attention and sleazy comments.

I'll ignore the personal jabs. They're expected at this point. But show me where I've disagreed with what you just said. Please.

[DR DOOM]

What is harassment?

I can't tell you, but I can show you

But seriously, following a woman who shows no interest in you down the street etc is too bloody much- I saw a group of girls on the way to the races at the train station the other day, tiny little skirts and all that...as we passed each other I just sort of shook my head and said to them "holy shit" with a smile and kept going where I had to go.

They looked fucking great, and they laughed and giggled when I said it...every hetero male's head was turning and gasping/swearing oaths.

I refrained from turning back around and following them though...I'm not a wolf whistler or a starer but when I pass a shimmering beauty I don't make any bones about looking at them and saying "WOW" or something and it's never been an issue.

Some guys are just fucking idiots though, and lose the fucking plot at a bit of flesh.

[magisme]

What is harassment?

I can't tell you, but I can show you

But seriously, following a woman who shows no interest in you down the street etc is too bloody much- I saw a group of girls on the way to the races at the train station the other day, tiny little skirts and all that...as we passed each other I just sort of shook my head and said to them "holy shit" with a smile and kept going where I had to go.

They looked fucking great, and they laughed and giggled when I said it...every hetero male's head was turning and gasping/swearing oaths.

I refrained from turning back around and following them though...I'm not a wolf whistler or a starer but when I pass a shimmering beauty I don't make any bones about looking at them and saying "WOW" or something and it's never been an issue.

Some guys are just fucking idiots though, and lose the fucking plot at a bit of flesh.

You're the same as the guy who followed her. You harassed those girls and you can't admit it. If you don't agree, you're a chauvinist ape. Why are you like that?

[SoulMonster]

I don't think anyone has called YOU "male chauvinist", "ape" or "despicable", magisme, because, after all - like you have made it very clear in this very thread - you are a centerfold guy who have never experienced any girl react negatively to your attention. What we have been talking about, I assume, are guys who don't understand that uninvited and unwelcome attention from guys can come across as both annoying and, to some women and in some situations, especially when we add up the effects of numerous such encounters, harrassing, and that we ought to treat everybody with respect, meaning that we will do out utmost to NOT make women uncomfortable with improper attention and sleazy comments.

I'll ignore the personal jabs. They're expected at this point. But show me where I've disagreed with what you just said. Please.

If you say you have never disagreed with what I said then I see no point wasting my time looking. But then you would also have no problems talking to your kids about how the behaviour shown in the video should be avoided because many girls don't appreciate such encounters when they are obviously not inviting it.

[streak]

I have heard similar stories myself from women about male attention, from a young age.

Is it really acceptable for women to get that sort of attention?

How fucking annoying must it be?

How creepy?

I mean, its acceptable if the woman doesn't mind.

But what if she doesn't?

[magisme]

I don't think anyone has called YOU "male chauvinist", "ape" or "despicable", magisme, because, after all - like you have made it very clear in this very thread - you are a centerfold guy who have never experienced any girl react negatively to your attention. What we have been talking about, I assume, are guys who don't understand that uninvited and unwelcome attention from guys can come across as both annoying and, to some women and in some situations, especially when we add up the effects of numerous such encounters, harrassing, and that we ought to treat everybody with respect, meaning that we will do out utmost to NOT make women uncomfortable with improper attention and sleazy comments.

I'll ignore the personal jabs. They're expected at this point. But show me where I've disagreed with what you just said. Please.

If you say you have never disagreed with what I said then I see no point wasting my time looking. But then you would also have no problems talking to your kids about how the behaviour shown in the video should be avoided because many girls don't appreciate such encounters when they are obviously not inviting it.

Once again, I'll insist that difference matters, so I won't categorize everything in the video as one type of behavior, and I'll promote discussion about it and ask them to discuss it openly with their female peers. I'll probably do very little of telling them what to do and what to avoid. I'd rather they form their own opinions and act according to their beliefs.

And, as Dice has rightly pointed out, I'll ask them what they think about the racial overtones in the video. Can't wait to see what my black students say.

[DR DOOM]

You're the same as the guy who followed her. You harassed those girls and you can't admit it. If you don't agree, you're a chauvinist ape. Why are you like that?

Because I'm just a born sex bully.

[GivenToFly]

magisme opens a thread to discuss harrassment and is explicit about wanting input from women. When that input doesn't validate his own opinions he dismisses and marginalizes them. Priceless.

The thing you need to understand is that magisme knows everything. If you disagree with him you must be wrong, simple as that.

Are you people fucking kidding me? I've been no more dismissive of others' views than anyone else. And I've continued to engage in discussion about the issue. The only thing I've dismissed out of hand is people who say saying hello is a problem. I feel OK about that. And scroll back some more and see all the names the people who agree with me and I have been called for our opinions. Apes, chauvinists, despicable, etc. Some of you people are just staggeringly awful. There's just no way around it.

And how many times have I added "IMO"? Seriously, fuck you.

Oh I'm sorry. I must have had you confused with a different magisme. He is the forum genius, you see, and he likes to remind us of it every couple of days. I do apologise for the confusion.

[SoulMonster]

I don't think anyone has called YOU "male chauvinist", "ape" or "despicable", magisme, because, after all - like you have made it very clear in this very thread - you are a centerfold guy who have never experienced any girl react negatively to your attention. What we have been talking about, I assume, are guys who don't understand that uninvited and unwelcome attention from guys can come across as both annoying and, to some women and in some situations, especially when we add up the effects of numerous such encounters, harrassing, and that we ought to treat everybody with respect, meaning that we will do out utmost to NOT make women uncomfortable with improper attention and sleazy comments.

I'll ignore the personal jabs. They're expected at this point. But show me where I've disagreed with what you just said. Please.

If you say you have never disagreed with what I said then I see no point wasting my time looking. But then you would also have no problems talking to your kids about how the behaviour shown in the video should be avoided because many girls don't appreciate such encounters when they are obviously not inviting it.

Once again, I'll insist that difference matters, so I won't categorize everything in the video as one type of behavior, and I'll promote discussion about it and ask them to discuss it openly with their female peers. I'll probably do very little of telling them what to do and what to avoid. I'd rather they form their own opinions and act according to their beliefs.

I find that awfully weak from a teacher in regards to behaviour that a large proportion of women would find highly unwelcome.

[magisme]

Great. Thanks for the contribution. Let's try to talk about that topic at hand.

[Satanisk_Slakt]

Yeah, you don't agree with me? Seriously, fuck you.

Ironically, that has nothing to do with my position on the issue (open to discussion, promoting conversation and debate) or and everything to do with yours. I don't expect you to understand that.

That's funny, because you've been far more aggressive than I have in my posts here. If you take a look at my posts they have been more general statements like "can be considered" or "I would", etc.

Again though, if many women finds it to be harassment or even only annoying that random strangers are giving them compliments for no other reason than that they've got a vagina, can't people just be respectful enough not to do that? Clearly they get to hear comments from a lot of other people too, perhaps they could do without yet another comment? No? It's about respect for other individuals ultimately.