The Boxing Thread

[Len Cnut]

13 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

By "tomato cans" I mean what the boxing critics would say, but I agree with you. 

I agree with what you said about "you can only fight who's there at that time" which is absolutely true. I don't hold opponents of an era against anyone, but when you compare eras (like Wilder did with Mike), that's when you call a spade a spade. At this point in their careers (Mike and Wilder), Tyson fought better opponents and took them out in far greater fashion, as well captured ALL the belts, it's just some BS for Wilder to talk like that. If George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Evander Holyfield, or Lennox Lewis want to compare resumes with Mike's then they have a point. But Deontay Wilder? No, not having it. 

As for AJ... Let's see how it all pans out. He's the unknown for me at this point. As we sit here today, he's Frank Bruno for me. If I put Fran Bruno in AJ's place, does much change? If I put AJ back in Bruno's place, does much change? I don't think it does. Which isn't a knock, I like Frank. He just came up in a really tough era, he'd be at the top in this era imo.

As for AJs record, the Klitchko win was HUGE, yes. But Fury already beat him. Fury ended the Klitchko era, not AJ. In the last 10 years the 4 best fighters have been Fury, AJ, Wilder, and Klitchko (not in that order, but those guys). Fury beat 2 of them, while they were still on top. Plus AJ DID lose to Ruiz. Having said that, his resume is solid, yes. But he's still just an alphabet champ at this point man.

I am the last person to be found comparing Mike and Wilder man, that shit is laughable to me.

AJ though, remember, is a young gun, Wilder and Fury have been around for a lot longer than him.  Yeah Fury might have ended the Klitschko era but remember he out-boxed him, barely put a mark on him, AJ flattened him.  Plus AJ is the one who bought the money back to boxing, the golden boy if you will.  Then look at how many top ten fighters are in AJs resume compared to Wilder or Fury.  I mean Fury for example, who is even on his record other than Klitsch’ and Wilder?  What, Steve Cunningham the cruiserweight?  John McDermott who nearly beat him?  He’s a doorman, literally a fuckin’ doorman.  Then look at Wilders, bearing in mind they’ve been around a lot longer.  Now look at AJs resume, Brazeale, Joseph Parker, Dillian Whyte (the man who was WBC mandatory for over a thousand days but Wilder wouldn’t fight him), Alexander Povetkin, Andy Ruiz, Carlos Takam...all good solid top ten heavyweights and former champs, he is doing what the great champions do, or attempting to and that is clearing out the division.  Now will he manage it?  Personally I don’t think so but you can’t call him an alphabet champion, the man is putting it down.

And if Fury has fought two of the top men its because he was allowed to because they thought he’s a fat smelly gyppo from Morecambe that they are gonna steam through, make no mistake about it Wilder fought him because he thought he was a soft touch and they were trying to freeze AJ out because he wouldn’t go 50/50 in the negotiations for a Wilder AJ showdown (nor should he, AJ fills out stadiums, Wilder can’t even sell out his own hometown).  And nobody gave Fury a hoot in hell against Klitschko, thats why Wlad took the fight.

Listen, I’m not saying AJ is king shit but he deserves respect, he is not at all an alphabet champion.  Come to that Bruno deserves more respect too, I think Bruno could fuck AJ up on the right day   I met him y’know, lovely bloke...leans a little heavy on the Joop! though, you could smell him coming down the road  

[Len Cnut]

12 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

I have that "old school" (well 80's old school, lol) mentality when it comes to boxing. You gotta come in, clear out the division, and get all the belts. Being the UNDISPUTED Champion means WAY MORE than being WBC champion. You gotta go out there and take them all. After you've had all the belts, if you want to drop one (for some reason), then whatever, but you gotta get them first. So having said that, we have not had a TRUE UNDISPUTED Heavyweight Champion since Lennox Lewis retired. We've had a bunch of guys pass around the 3 or now 4 belts. Tyson Fury is one win against AJ away from changing that.

Thats why I have a hard time rating the Klitchkos. They were both really good fighters that would of been hard to deal with in any era. But neither of them actually reigned as UNDISPUTED, they always allowed others to have belts, including each other. So when people talk title defenses, lineal champ, or anything "historical" context matters. You can not give me ANY proof that Wlads title defenses are anywhere near as impressive as Joe Louis. Back when there were less divisions and one champion per division.

I heard Mayweather run his mouth about having beat more "champions" than any fighter in history. Of course you did, you fought at how many weigh classes with 4 titles per weight class. But that makes you better than Sugar Ray Robinson? Muhammad Ali? Get outta here with your alphabet nonsense. 

Us boxing fans gotta hold them accountable Len. Or they will use crap like that to spin history int their favor. Mayweather also called the "philly shell" the "Mayweather shell" because he said "I perfected it, it's not the Philly Shell anymore, it's the Mayweather Shell. I own it now."

I would not put Wlad anywhere near Joe Louises league.  In fact, no heavyweight is except Ali, you can’t fuck with Joe Louis, the guy lost, what, three fights his whole career, with the last two being his last two fights, other than that was Schmeling took him in his prime and got washed in the rematch.  
 

And Mayweather is fucking class man, you can’t deny Mayweather his props.  He might talk a load of fuckin bollocks (which boxer doesn’t?), in my opinion if you beat everybody in your era (and a few from outside your era) then you have the right to call yourself King Shit, why should you dedicate your life to boxing to pay lip service to other fighters, Ali certainly didn’t do it so why should Floyd Mayweather, look at Mayweathers entire career, apart from Castillio I can’t think of a fight that was even close, he beat all the best of his era and then even beat the fuckin’ future face of boxing in Canelo Alvarez...and easily at that, pissed all over him, I got nothing but respect for Floyd, I think he’s a G...the fact that he has the personality of a cunt is a matter for his family and friends, if being a horrible person was reason to dislike a fighter I wouldn’t be a fan of Liston or Tyson, two men who were, by all accounts, very unpleasant to be around in their day.

[Silverburst80]

20 hours ago, action said:

I'm by no means a boxing connoisseur, but roy sure was breathing heavy towards the end, tyson not so much.

maybe it was meant to be staged, but I don't think roy being gassed like that was part of the plan.

it was a good fight, yes a fight, tyson has somewhat repaired his legacy with this. And I believe he won this fight.

Roys best fighting weight is between 75-80 kgs i think he was 90 odd for this exhibition, carrying that extra weight at 51 is gonna be a struggle to perform......to be quite frank i've seen plenty of guys in their early fifties looking fitter than both Tyson and Jones.....Holyfield still looks like a machine

Edited December 2, 2020 by Silverburst80

[Len Cnut]

Tyson said he smoked a zoot before the fight, the craving cunt  

[Iron MikeyJ]

11 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

I would not put Wlad anywhere near Joe Louises league.  In fact, no heavyweight is except Ali, you can’t fuck with Joe Louis, the guy lost, what, three fights his whole career, with the last two being his last two fights, other than that was Schmeling took him in his prime and got washed in the rematch.  
 

And Mayweather is fucking class man, you can’t deny Mayweather his props.  He might talk a load of fuckin bollocks (which boxer doesn’t?), in my opinion if you beat everybody in your era (and a few from outside your era) then you have the right to call yourself King Shit, why should you dedicate your life to boxing to pay lip service to other fighters, Ali certainly didn’t do it so why should Floyd Mayweather, look at Mayweathers entire career, apart from Castillio I can’t think of a fight that was even close, he beat all the best of his era and then even beat the fuckin’ future face of boxing in Canelo Alvarez...and easily at that, pissed all over him, I got nothing but respect for Floyd, I think he’s a G...the fact that he has the personality of a cunt is a matter for his family and friends, if being a horrible person was reason to dislike a fighter I wouldn’t be a fan of Liston or Tyson, two men who were, by all accounts, very unpleasant to be around in their day.

Do I like Floyd? No, I DESPISE his style as well. I also don't like how "careful" he was about selecting opponents. Having said that, I respect his in ring accomplishments. At Welterweight (I don't follow or care about lower than Welter), he HAS to be considered top 5 all time. I think a couple of guys would have taught him a thing or two in the ring (Leonard and Hearns), but his resume is great. 

[Iron MikeyJ]

11 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

I am the last person to be found comparing Mike and Wilder man, that shit is laughable to me.

AJ though, remember, is a young gun, Wilder and Fury have been around for a lot longer than him.  Yeah Fury might have ended the Klitschko era but remember he out-boxed him, barely put a mark on him, AJ flattened him.  Plus AJ is the one who bought the money back to boxing, the golden boy if you will.  Then look at how many top ten fighters are in AJs resume compared to Wilder or Fury.  I mean Fury for example, who is even on his record other than Klitsch’ and Wilder?  What, Steve Cunningham the cruiserweight?  John McDermott who nearly beat him?  He’s a doorman, literally a fuckin’ doorman.  Then look at Wilders, bearing in mind they’ve been around a lot longer.  Now look at AJs resume, Brazeale, Joseph Parker, Dillian Whyte (the man who was WBC mandatory for over a thousand days but Wilder wouldn’t fight him), Alexander Povetkin, Andy Ruiz, Carlos Takam...all good solid top ten heavyweights and former champs, he is doing what the great champions do, or attempting to and that is clearing out the division.  Now will he manage it?  Personally I don’t think so but you can’t call him an alphabet champion, the man is putting it down.

And if Fury has fought two of the top men its because he was allowed to because they thought he’s a fat smelly gyppo from Morecambe that they are gonna steam through, make no mistake about it Wilder fought him because he thought he was a soft touch and they were trying to freeze AJ out because he wouldn’t go 50/50 in the negotiations for a Wilder AJ showdown (nor should he, AJ fills out stadiums, Wilder can’t even sell out his own hometown).  And nobody gave Fury a hoot in hell against Klitschko, thats why Wlad took the fight.

Listen, I’m not saying AJ is king shit but he deserves respect, he is not at all an alphabet champion.  Come to that Bruno deserves more respect too, I think Bruno could fuck AJ up on the right day   I met him y’know, lovely bloke...leans a little heavy on the Joop! though, you could smell him coming down the road  

I disagree about AJ, at THIS moment. Like I said, it could change in a year or two. He had 3 belts, but look at his path to those belts man, he only had two really good wins (Klitchko and Ruiz), and the Ruiz win came because he got caught in the first bout. Yes I know, you can only beat who's out there at any given time, but again he's only fought 1 of the top 4 (Klitchko, Fury, AJ, Wilder), and that win came after Fury ALREADY beat him. Ok, so he's beating up the rest of the top 10, so good for him. He's made a name for himself, which in boxing is HUGE. But he NEEDS to beat Fury if he wants to be the man, period. 

The same applies to Fury, but to a lesser degree. At no point in his career has Fury been the UNDISPUTED Champion. But he DID beat the man (Klitchko), who rose to the top after Lennox Lewis retired. Although neither Klitchko brother ever became Undisputed either, Wlad DID reign over his belts for a long time. So he "kinda" became the MAN by default. By man I'm talking about "the man who beat the man, who beat the man," the lineage. So when Fury beat him, he became the Lineal champion. Which I feel like I'm preaching to the choir here, but anyways... That win over Klitchko is EVERYTHING now man. When you add that with what he just did to Wilder, add the fact that he is undefeated... Come on man. 

It ALL goes back to the Klitchko brothers still. Since at no point during that era there wasn't an Undisputed Champion, the waters have been merky. To put it point blank, since the brothers never fought each other, they held the division hostage. I understand they vowed to never fight each other, and all that stuff. But that's besides the point, the bottom line is the 2 best heavyweights in the world for 10 years refused to fight each other. As a result, we are left to pick up the mess. That's also why I have a hard time putting either in my top 10 all time, but that's a different topic. 

Anyways, here we are now, and we are the closest we have been since Lennox, to having an actual TRUE UNDISPUTED Heavyweight champion. That's exciting stuff. Fury is in the driver's seat though, you gotta admit that. AJ is second, that's for sure and Wilder is a distant 3rd. Interestingly enough, Klitchko would still be 4th, if he fights again.

[DieselDaisy]

I love him,

 

Such an antidote to the dull, sanitized, bland, wokeish celebrities-sportsmen which proliferate these days - especially in the corridors of the BBC.

[Len Cnut]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

I love him,

 

Such an antidote to the dull, sanitized, bland, wokeish celebrities-sportsmen which proliferate these days - especially in the corridors of the BBC.

Well they did fuck him off in years gone by so fuck em, why should he want their fuckin’ poxy little award now, don’t mean nothin’ anyway.

[Dazey]

4 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

Well they did fuck him off in years gone by so fuck em, why should he want their fuckin’ poxy little award now, don’t mean nothin’ anyway.

Waste of fucking time anyway. They're only gonna give it to Lewis Hamilton regardless of anybody else who's nominated.

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, Dazey said:

Waste of fucking time anyway. They're only gonna give it to Lewis Hamilton regardless of anybody else who's nominated.

Environmentalism? Tick? Black Lives Matter? Tick. A certifiable BBC luvvie.

[Len Cnut]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

Environmentalism? Tick? Black Lives Matter? Tick. A certifiable BBC luvvie.

I hear he’s a proper arrogant cunt in real life.

[DieselDaisy]

11 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I hear he’s a proper arrogant cunt in real life.

https://expressinformer.com/lewis-hamilton-loses-three-year-legal-battle-to-ban-luxury-watchmakers-hamilton-brand/

[Silverburst80]

Axl should of put out a video like that when he snubbed the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame....."i'm the peoples champ!, you can shove your award up your ass....now excuse me i'm off to assemble a halloween tree"

[spunko12345]

The sports personality award is like Wimbledon, Twickers, The oxford boat race, the london marathon all boring as fuck and the BBC dominate full Saturdays to them every year.

Its normaly Clare Balding hosting with John Inverdale thrown in to annually moisten the gussets of the WI brigade.  

For want of a better insult it's all very toffy English wanker territory. 

[spunko12345]

On 12/1/2020 at 5:39 AM, Iron MikeyJ said:

Wilder telegraph's his punches. I honestly don't believe he has the technical ability to be in there with Mike. IMO he wouldn't of been able to even crack the top 10 back in the 90s. Forget Tyson, Holyfield, or Lewis; Wilder wasn't beating Tommy Morrison, Frank Bruno, Razor Ruddock, Riddick Bowe, Foreman or even Holmes. 

Honestly Fury is the only one that would of been trouble in the 70s, 80's, 90's, etc. Joshua I believe would of been a really solid fighter in any era as well, but I can't see him beating some of those guys I mentioned either, but I think he would have fared better than Wilder. 

So even in his advanced age, I just don't think he has the actual boxing skill to beat Mike. I'm not going to say Mike would just run him over (he would have in 88, but not now). I also don't feel that Tyson would beat him 10/10 times currently either. But I would give Mike the 6/10 odds advantage over him. 

Think about it like this, look what Fury did to him. Went in there, out boxed him and took the fight to Wilder. He couldn't handle the pressure. That's Mike's #1 ability, applying pressure. Mike would destroy his skinny mid section with those body shots. Wilder HAS to land the big right hand, that's all he has. 

Honestly if you are Wilder (or his people), you don't want ANY part of Mike (unless you just want a pay day). Styles make fights, and Mike Tyson is a HORRIBLE style for Wilder, if you want Wilder to flourish. Joshua is a FAR better matchup for him. If I'm Wilder THATS the fight I want, not Fury, not Mike. Fury will lay him out again and his career will be pretty much over. Same goes for if he fights Mike. If Mike kos him, or even beats him on points, it's a BAD look for Wilder. Even if he beats Mike, he beat an old, past prime Mike. No HUGE win, not anymore. He doesn't have anything to really gain (other than money), for even thinking about fighting Mike. Having said that, with all the crap he's talked about Mike, it wouldn't shock me if he is dumb enough to WANT to fight him. 

Honestly just watch the two of them train. Wilder literally does NOTHING as good as Mike can, even at 54 years old. Age is literally his ONLY advantage. The big bad power puncher got BEAT UP by a guy (Fury) that's NEVER been known as a power puncher. That's SERIOUSLY telling about his boxing skills.

The ONLY other times that top, serious heavyweight champions got punked like Wilder did was when Joe Frazier got beat down by George Foreman (but it was freaking Foreman), when Lennox Lewis got rocked by Rahman (but Lewis got revenge, Lennox got punked twice in his career but avenged both losses), and when Patterson got punked by Liston in their rematch (but again it was Sonny Liston.) My point being, it's not just the fact that Fury won. It's not even that Fury koed him, it's HOW Fury Koed him. He done BURIED that boy. Wilder's career is hanging in the balance right now. If he fights Fury again, and loses badly again, he's no longer considered elite (not while Fury is still in the picture). Which again, Fury is NOT a power puncher, so that makes it even worse. 

There is nothing wrong with holding boxers from the past up and giving them their dues. We all enjoy doing that, its a unique part of boxing fandom, getting into the history of fights and revisiting them.

But you seem to fetishize Mike Tyson. Hes been and gone mate, in 2020 he cannot beat Deontay Wilder. You can bang on to me about his head movement all you want but I'm going on biology and the degeneration of the human body which happens to everyone. Even Mike Tyson. 

[Dazey]

24 minutes ago, spunko12345 said:

The sports personality award is like Wimbledon, Twickers, The oxford boat race, the london marathon all boring as fuck and the BBC dominate full Saturdays to them every year.

Its normaly Clare Balding hosting with John Inverdale thrown in to annually moisten the gussets of the WI brigade.  

For want of a better insult it's all very toffy English wanker territory. 

Love how it's called Sports "Personality" when Andy Murray, Steve Davis and fucking Nigel Mansell have won it before.  

I do hear that Steve Davis is actually quite a laugh in real life mind.

[spunko12345]

2 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Love how it's called Sports "Personality" when Andy Murray, Steve Davis and fucking Nigel Mansell have won it before.  

I do hear that Steve Davis is actually quite a laugh in real life mind.

He is the outlier here. He's become a DJ and plays prog, soul and his own electro stuff. Hes basically the Peter Gabriel of snooker 😄

[Dazey]

1 minute ago, spunko12345 said:

He is the outlier here. He's become a DJ and plays prog, soul and his own electro stuff. Hes basically the Peter Gabriel of snooker 😄

Jimmy White would be a good laugh to go for a few jars with.

[spunko12345]

1 minute ago, Dazey said:

Jimmy White would be a good laugh to go for a few jars with.

I got his autograph at Newport Leisure center 1995 when they had the Welsh Open there. He was signing programmes with two pints of Guiness and smoking a fag as people were walking past to get to the changing rooms for the gym and pool. #myhero

[Iron MikeyJ]

3 hours ago, spunko12345 said:

There is nothing wrong with holding boxers from the past up and giving them their dues. We all enjoy doing that, its a unique part of boxing fandom, getting into the history of fights and revisiting them.

But you seem to fetishize Mike Tyson. Hes been and gone mate, in 2020 he cannot beat Deontay Wilder. You can bang on to me about his head movement all you want but I'm going on biology and the degeneration of the human body which happens to everyone. Even Mike Tyson. 

I don't "fetishize" Mike Tyson, and I resent you saying that. I just know what my eyes saw, and Mike Tyson in 1987/8 was as good or better than anyone that ever stepped in a ring. He's not the only one that I feel that way about though, Leonard after the Duran loss, was also as good as it gets. Ali around 65/66 was also just plain unbeatable. I have a pretty big fight library, I've watched all the best fighters (mostly heavyweight, but also light heavy, middle and Welter). I'm not saying all this to say "hey I know more than you," or anything of the sort. Im just saying I've really followed the sport closely in my lifetime, again the heavyweight division especially. Tysons peak was higher than 99% of other fighters, it just was. The sad thing is he didn't live up to his potential, honestly. But for a moment in time 87/88, THAT Mike Tyson beats every other heavyweight thats ever lived (except for Ali in 65/66). Yes he would have had problems with a few others; George Foreman, Joe Louis, Evander Holyfield (he was always going to be hard for Tyson)and Sonny Liston. Those are the fighters that are the worst potential matchups for Tyson imo. Even the great Larry Holmes, was at no point, a bad match up for Mike. Tyson had actually been training for Holmes his entire career. They found a "flaw" in his style, much like Max Schmeling found with Joe Louis before their first fight. 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Iron MikeyJ

[spunko12345]

3 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

I don't "fetishize" Mike Tyson, and I resent you saying that. I just know what my eyes saw, and Mike Tyson in 1987/8 was as good or better than anyone that ever stepped in a ring. He's not the only one that I feel that way about though, Leonard after the Duran loss, was also as good as it gets. Ali around 65/66 was also just plain unbeatable. I have a pretty big fight library, I've watched all the best fighters (mostly heavyweight, but also light heavy, middle and Welter). I'm not saying all this to say "hey I know more than you," or anything of the sort. Im just saying I've really followed the sport closely in my lifetime, again the heavyweight division especially. Tysons peak was higher than 99% of other fighters, it just was. The sad thing is he didn't live up to his potential, honestly. But for a moment in time 87/88, THAT Mike Tyson beats every other heavyweight thats ever lived (except for Ali in 65/66). Yes he would have had problems with a few others; George Foreman, Joe Louis, Evander Holyfield (he was always going to be hard for Tyson)and Sonny Liston. Those are the fighters that are the worst potential matchups for Tyson imo. Even the great Larry Holmes, was at no point, a bad match up for Mike. Tyson had actually been training for Holmes his entire career. They found a "flaw" in his style, much like Max Schmeling found with Joe Louis before their first fight. 

I get all that and I'm not having a go at you for it. Part of being a boxing fan seems to be living in the past a bit. I do it and love watching old fights. But I think sometimes it can stop you (not you) from appreciating the here and now and admitting that there are great fighters out there now. And comparing eras is completely futile and I find it quite boring.

I guess part of why its tempting to keep looking back is because boxing is not like football, basketball or whatever and there's a game every week so you don't get a chance to pause.  I've never re watched an entire football match in my life after it's done live. Yet I've watched hundreds of old fights over and over on a weekly basis.

Edited December 4, 2020 by spunko12345

[Len Cnut]

2 hours ago, spunko12345 said:

I get all that and I'm not having a go at you for it. Part of being a boxing fan seems to be living in the past a bit. I do it and love watching old fights. But I think sometimes it can stop you (not you) from appreciating the here and now and admitting that there are great fighters out there now. 

This a million times, though I have found comparing past eras entertaining somewhat.

@Iron MikeyJ

Watch Errol Spence vs Danny Garcia tommorow, just give it a try, tell me that ain’t some serious elite level boxing.

[Len Cnut]

10 hours ago, spunko12345 said:

There is nothing wrong with holding boxers from the past up and giving them their dues. We all enjoy doing that, its a unique part of boxing fandom, getting into the history of fights and revisiting them.

But you seem to fetishize Mike Tyson. Hes been and gone mate, in 2020 he cannot beat Deontay Wilder. You can bang on to me about his head movement all you want but I'm going on biology and the degeneration of the human body which happens to everyone. Even Mike Tyson. 

Even I must fetishize him to a point them because I just can’t bring myself to say he’d lose to Deontay Wilder   Even though, y’know, he fuckin’ lost to Kevin McBridge (yeah, who?  Exactly) in his last fight 15 yrs ago).

[DieselDaisy]

Without positing any theories as to why, boxing is certifiably the most nostalgic sport of all - at least among the sports I follow. All sports are nostalgic but no sport seems to exist with such a then and now. 

[spunko12345]

2 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

Even I must fetishize him to a point them because I just can’t bring myself to say he’d lose to Deontay Wilder   Even though, y’know, he fuckin’ lost to Kevin McBridge (yeah, who?  Exactly) in his last fight 15 yrs ago).

And if my nan had bollocks she'd be my grandad.

We'll never know. Unless they do actually fight as part of this Tyson comeback of course. In which case I'll obviously be proved right 😄