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On 14/05/2020 at 11:23 AM, Len Cnut said:

Its a load of noise about nothing, exhibition bout, not like its a proper fight.  And all these lot goin' 'oh he'd do todays fighters', no he fuckin' wouldn't, any boxer or ex boxer under 65 can get in the gym, get in good nick and look amazing on the pads but if he got in the ring he'd look 53 REALLY fuckin' quick.  Listen, I love Mike Tyson, not only one of my earliest heroes but probably like...the first person I was ever aware of in culture.  But it is what it is, everybody has their day and then they're done.

Yes and the video with him on the pads isnt even a 1 shot video, he has different colour tshirts on every few seconds so its filmed and edited to look fast lol

 

Tyson fury is the name im hearing he is going in with, its not even going to be a sparring session, i can see it being a "you hit me a few time and i will hit you a few times"

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The fight that Leonard claimed 'taught me survival' and also led to his retina problems later.

It is, yes   Up North they even bung it on the end of sentences, inexplicably!  Example: Normal Human Being:  Alright Ted, where you off to? Northern Pig:  I’m off up t’pub like!

What? The North?  

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6 hours ago, scottish nutter said:

Yes and the video with him on the pads isnt even a 1 shot video, he has different colour tshirts on every few seconds so its filmed and edited to look fast lol

 

Tyson fury is the name im hearing he is going in with, its not even going to be a sparring session, i can see it being a "you hit me a few time and i will hit you a few times"

He won't be fighting Fury no chance.

 

Fury has apparently said today it's happening but he talks bollocks a lot of the time.

 

He said before Wilder 2 that he has spoken to Conner Mcgregor who later turned around and said they had never met.

Edited by lukepowell1988
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  • 2 weeks later...

Listen from about 1hr 30mins 😂 All of them high as fuck and Tyson is talking about his dick like it's a sentient human being plotting against him 😂 

 

Edited by spunko12345
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On 12/06/2020 at 6:13 PM, spunko12345 said:

Listen from about 1hr 30mins 😂 All of them high as fuck and Tyson is talking about his dick like it's a sentient human being plotting against him 😂 

 

Yeah I saw that interview, Shannon spoke to Mike like I speak to everyone that starts getting emotional on me when I’m high :lol:  

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  • 3 weeks later...

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/boxing/12008250/billy-joe-saunders-canelo-alvarez-fight-train/

I can't fuckin' believe Bill sometimes.  I really rate him, always have, always stuck up for him but this is taking the piss.  Hard to back this.  This is it, this is the shot, your chance at the pound for pound best, after all his fuckin' set backs and all that bollocks, all the people saying that he's just kidnapping the title, he goes and does this, fuckssake Bill.

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2 minutes ago, lukepowell1988 said:

Get to download the app early and test it for buggs ect.

You mean watch the footy for gratis, you jammy fucker :lol:  Get me on the firm innit!

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Katie Taylor confirms Aug 22nd for her Delfine re match on Sky box office Eddie H also confirms its live from Essex Match Room HQ back garden 

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Billy Joe facing a possible ban for his 'dismantling your mums fanny' tweet aimed at Eubank Jnr.  Also Dillian Whyte had ditched Mark Tibbs as trainer, or parted ways rather, just as Deontay Wilder has parted ways with former welterweight Mark Breland.  Also, Dillian Whyte is fighting Alexander Povetkin in Eddie Hearns back garden.

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2 minutes ago, lukepowell1988 said:

Hearn can fuck off if he thinks i'm paying £25 for Whyte Povetkin

 

Will be streaming this one.

Not a bad fight yknow, I’ve paid for worse.

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On 5/14/2020 at 6:23 AM, Len Cnut said:

Its a load of noise about nothing, exhibition bout, not like its a proper fight.  And all these lot goin' 'oh he'd do todays fighters', no he fuckin' wouldn't, any boxer or ex boxer under 65 can get in the gym, get in good nick and look amazing on the pads but if he got in the ring he'd look 53 REALLY fuckin' quick.  Listen, I love Mike Tyson, not only one of my earliest heroes but probably like...the first person I was ever aware of in culture.  But it is what it is, everybody has their day and then they're done.

Long time no see...

 

Anyways, I'd like to chime in here. As a general rule, I agree with you, but Mike was different. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY ever truly beat Tyson, Tyson beat himself. As painful as those last two losses were to watch, they were losses where his heart wasn't in it, he didn't train that much and was fighting just for money (not to mention he was battling drug addiction at that time). 

I'm not trying to sit here and do revisionist history here, but the reality is when Tyson was REALLY into boxing, training, taking it seriously, etc he never lost. This statement includes Buster Douglas, it's a well known fact that he didn't train or take that fight seriously. A PRIME Tyson (fully trained and engaged) is a SERIOUS problem for ANY fighter that ever lived, including Ali. While I'm not going to say for certain "Tyson beats Ali" but Ali DID struggle with Joe Frazier, and Tyson was a MUCH tougher (and similar) animal as Frazier. I've heard MANY boxing experts talk about this, and most agree. I'll just leave it at that.

 

As for Mike making a comeback... I have mixed feelings about it. If he is taking it seriously (and he appears to be doing so), he could and WOULD be a dangerous fight for any of the top guys right now. Does that mean he would win? No. But he could give them trouble. Tyson Fury would be the WORST fight for a 54 year old Mike. I wouldn't want him to take that fight. I think the reasons why are self evident. Joshua I'm also not a huge fan of Mike taking. Joshua DOES have a suspect chin, but I feel after 6 or so rounds it would be Lennox vs Tyson all over again. 

Which leaves Wilder, that's the one guy I say "maybe" too. Now it's not a full on "yes Mike will win" but it's also not a for sure "Mike will lose either." What Wilder lacks, Mike has TONS of, even at 54. Wilder is a one trick pony, and Mike knows that. Avoid the right hand, he can be easily beaten. His footwork is terrible, his technique is terrible, his actual boxing skills are suspect. These are things that a prime Mike would have eaten for lunch. Obviously Mike is long past his prime, but even at 54 he could still take advantage of. 

What Mike would HAVE to do, is similar to what Foreman did. Don't go in looking for an early knockout (if Mike does that, he could be gassed by the 5th round). If he paces himself, waits for his opening, uses his FAR superior technique and boxing knowledge, and goes to wilders BODY a 54 year old Mike CAN knockout Wilder. I'm not saying he will, I'm just saying it's a BAD matchup for Wilder, and Wilder is dumb enough to want that fight (very Rocky 6 like). 

But that's really the ONLY real fight I would want Mike to take. Other than that, I agree... Exhibitions.

 

As for what I said earlier, I know you are going to have problems with and I'm sure we will have to agree to disagree. I heard Teddy Atlas talk about Tyson vs Holmes recently. No dissrepect for Holmes, but even if Holmes was 28, the result would have been the same. Cus, Kevin, Teddy, and Tyson KNEW how to beat Larry. They had a game plan for how to deal with him (just like Schmeling had for Louis). Holmes had a flaw in his technique that Tyson was trained to take advantage of. Even though Teddy was out of he picture at that point, he made a bet (and won money) on Tyson knocking out Holmes with a right hand. Sure enough, that's what happened. After hearing that, you can't dismiss Tyson's ko of Holmes. Yes he was older, but that was TYSON'S guy, who he trained for, studied, etc. A prime Mike Tyson beats a prime Holmes every time. As for Ali, he would have been tougher than Holmes for Tyson, but it's a bad matchup for Ali, but I'm not going to declare a winner. I know you are going to talk about Tyson's heart vs other guys heart. But Tyson gets a bad wrap for his heart. Did he have Ali's heart? No. But it's still elite level. Lennox, Holyfield, and others have talked about it. Mike didn't give up (outside of the bite fight). He kept coming and coming. He also had a chin of granite. Those same guys have said that as well. 

Frazier... Tyson easily

Louis... Tyson (Tyson was too fast and strong for him, and I LOVE Joe Louis)

Foreman... That's a tough call, could go either way. Can Foreman deal with Tyson's speed? Can Tyson handle the bigger, stronger Foreman?

Liston... Underrated all time fighter, arguably best jab ever, yes I said that. He might be the WORST matchup for Mike out of everyone.

Holyfield... No disrespect meant, but it's pretty much "out" that Holyfield was on steroids by the mid 90s. The REAL Holyfield from 91/92 couldn't handle Prime Mike imo. But it still would have been a great fight. 

Lennox... Again no disrespect, but Lennox in the early 90s wasn't ready for Mike at that time. When Lennox WAS ready for him, Tyson was no longer really "into" boxing anymore, it was just a paycheck. A prime Mike vs a prime Lennox, Lewis's chin doesn't hold up imo. 

 

These are my true feelings. I'm not saying Mike is the GOAT, that's Ali and I'm not arguing it. But Iron Mike Tyson was the most talented heavyweight to EVER step in a boxing ring. He would have been trouble for ANY FIGHTER from ANY era. Mike didn't have the greatest career ever (that's Ali). I also admit that both Holyfield and Lennox had better careers during Mike's era. But I also say that if Cus had been 10 years younger, Tyson beats Douglas, then beats Holyfield, doesn't go to prison, and history is VERY different.

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Anyways, I'd like to chime in here. As a general rule, I agree with you, but Mike was different. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY ever truly beat Tyson, Tyson beat himself. As painful as those last two losses were to watch, they were losses where his heart wasn't in it, he didn't train that much and was fighting just for money (not to mention he was battling drug addiction at that time). 

I'm not trying to sit here and do revisionist history here, but the reality is when Tyson was REALLY into boxing, training, taking it seriously, etc he never lost. This statement includes Buster Douglas, it's a well known fact that he didn't train or take that fight seriously.

Is that his opponents fault?  Since when did not taking your job seriously and being a dick qualify you for futherance in a field of achievement?  You live and die by what you achieve in the ring and the fact that you were doing drugs or not taking your opponent seriously does not qualify you for a pass, not in sport, not in real life, not in anything.  And all this talk of prime, a great fighter, someone to be counted as among the greats, they get a lot done outside of their prime too.  You could argue Muhammad Ali was already way past his prime after the Foreman fight, look at the fights he put up.  Part of being a great is being professional, getting it done despite whatevers going on in your life.  Shit, are we gonna start expunging records of fighters now by going through their histories and writing off fights that they fought and lost because they were under some sort of strain or duress?  Cuz there'll be a long list of fighters getting a pass then. 

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As for Mike making a comeback... I have mixed feelings about it. If he is taking it seriously (and he appears to be doing so), he could and WOULD be a dangerous fight for any of the top guys right now. Does that mean he would win? No. But he could give them trouble. Tyson Fury would be the WORST fight for a 54 year old Mike. I wouldn't want him to take that fight. I think the reasons why are self evident. Joshua I'm also not a huge fan of Mike taking. Joshua DOES have a suspect chin, but I feel after 6 or so rounds it would be Lennox vs Tyson all over again. 

Which leaves Wilder, that's the one guy I say "maybe" too. Now it's not a full on "yes Mike will win" but it's also not a for sure "Mike will lose either." What Wilder lacks, Mike has TONS of, even at 54. Wilder is a one trick pony, and Mike knows that. Avoid the right hand, he can be easily beaten. His footwork is terrible, his technique is terrible, his actual boxing skills are suspect. These are things that a prime Mike would have eaten for lunch. Obviously Mike is long past his prime, but even at 54 he could still take advantage of. 

What Mike would HAVE to do, is similar to what Foreman did. Don't go in looking for an early knockout (if Mike does that, he could be gassed by the 5th round). If he paces himself, waits for his opening, uses his FAR superior technique and boxing knowledge, and goes to wilders BODY a 54 year old Mike CAN knockout Wilder. I'm not saying he will, I'm just saying it's a BAD matchup for Wilder, and Wilder is dumb enough to want that fight (very Rocky 6 like). 

 

I honestly don't wanna see Mike, who is a personal hero of mine, coming back at 50 something and getting knocked around the ring.  This is a tough and dirty sport and a well edited youtube video of Mike on the pads can make him look like the Mike of old but he ain't, nobody is and after about three rounds and he starts walking like he's standing in treacle and catching jabs flush to the face, it would all make sense.  The fact is Mike barely gave a shit about boxing since the mid 90s, he lost fights to some dire opponents, not even including Kevin McBride here but people like fuckin' Danny Williams?  See I'm from here and I watched Danny Williams fight on a regular so I know what a fuckin' plummet in standards Danny Williams is for a man like Mike Tyson, Danny Williams is national level at best, not even close to world level...and he beat Mike, regardless of whether Mike was taking shit seriously or not.  And this is 2020 here.  I don't wanna see it.
 

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As for what I said earlier, I know you are going to have problems with and I'm sure we will have to agree to disagree. I heard Teddy Atlas talk about Tyson vs Holmes recently. No dissrepect for Holmes, but even if Holmes was 28, the result would have been the same. Cus, Kevin, Teddy, and Tyson KNEW how to beat Larry. They had a game plan for how to deal with him (just like Schmeling had for Louis). Holmes had a flaw in his technique that Tyson was trained to take advantage of. Even though Teddy was out of he picture at that point, he made a bet (and won money) on Tyson knocking out Holmes with a right hand. Sure enough, that's what happened. After hearing that, you can't dismiss Tyson's ko of Holmes. Yes he was older, but that was TYSON'S guy, who he trained for, studied, etc. A prime Mike Tyson beats a prime Holmes every time. As for Ali, he would have been tougher than Holmes for Tyson, but it's a bad matchup for Ali, but I'm not going to declare a winner. I know you are going to talk about Tyson's heart vs other guys heart. But Tyson gets a bad wrap for his heart. Did he have Ali's heart? No. But it's still elite level. Lennox, Holyfield, and others have talked about it. Mike didn't give up (outside of the bite fight). He kept coming and coming. He also had a chin of granite. Those same guys have said that as well. 

 

 

 

I don't dismiss no ones beating of no one, Mike knocked Larry the fuck out, plain and simple, was he older?  Yes he was but he weren't so old that he couldn't throw hands and if he weren't up for it he shouldn't've laced up gloves.  Larry don't ask or look for no ones sympathy and we should respect him enough to not dish it out like he's some kinda lost puppy.  As for Tysons heart, yeah he had heart but there's kinds of heart.  Tyson had stand there and take my lumps heart, which by itself is commendable.  Did he have competitive find a way fuck you I'm not losing to this guy kind of heart?  One could easily argue against it.  But then whats an argument, its me talking and you talking back, we're not in there taking the fucking shots, all we can go by is what the record reflects.  Mike don't choke, that much is for damn sure but what does happen is, by his own admission, after a certain point, he's just like 'OK, I've lost this fight'. 

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Frazier... Tyson easily

Louis... Tyson (Tyson was too fast and strong for him, and I LOVE Joe Louis)

Foreman... That's a tough call, could go either way. Can Foreman deal with Tyson's speed? Can Tyson handle the bigger, stronger Foreman?

Liston... Underrated all time fighter, arguably best jab ever, yes I said that. He might be the WORST matchup for Mike out of everyone.

Holyfield... No disrespect meant, but it's pretty much "out" that Holyfield was on steroids by the mid 90s. The REAL Holyfield from 91/92 couldn't handle Prime Mike imo. But it still would have been a great fight. 

Lennox... Again no disrespect, but Lennox in the early 90s wasn't ready for Mike at that time. When Lennox WAS ready for him, Tyson was no longer really "into" boxing anymore, it was just a paycheck. A prime Mike vs a prime Lennox, Lewis's chin doesn't hold up imo. 

 

Comparing fighters of different eras is...I dunno, a fools errand.  Its never gonna happen and its kinda disrespectful to make shit up.  Also, sports evolve, times change, comparing someone like Dempsey to fuckin' Klitschko cuz they were both heavyweights of their time is just stupid, those old timey guys used to fuckin' drink beer and eat steak and chop wood to train for fights, the comparisons are silly.  All you can judge a man by is what he did in his day.  And Joe Louis did more in his day than ANY fighter in the ring, you could even argue Ali if you wanted to...and to then diminish a mans achievements by comparing him to a man 50 years later is just disrespectful.  The fact is he did what NONE of these other guys did, held the title and kept it for the longest time in heavyweight history, even Klistchko couldn't touch his record. 

Tyson and Holy', Tyson and Lewis, these are fair comparisons, men of each other times and place in the world.  I believe Tyson destroys Holyfield had they met after or around the Douglas time and Mike was being a fucking cunt in camp, he'd beat him.  Maybe points, slightly less likely a late stoppage but Mike takes him.  Lennox gets decapitated.  But again, this is all disrespectful.  The fact is Mike fought them when he was alive and well and a reasonably young man.  Tyson and Lewis are the same age and Holyfield is older than Tyson.  And if you're not training or doing it for a paycheck well again thats hard cheese, why should the other guys achievement be diminished because you're a cunt?  I mean these guys flog their guts out in the ring and in training camp, do the work, get in the ring, get the W and then all of a sudden, after all that, there's people out there going 'oh that don't count cuz Mike was smoking weed', what the fuck?! :lol:  Does Cleveland Williams get a pass from the Ali fight cuz he got shot before that fight and weren't the same man?  He doesn't, does he?  Does Liston get a pass cuz he had a shoulder injury prior to the first Ali fight?  Shit, there's rumours Liston was doing heroin around the mid 60s.

Every single fighter ever, despite what they say in the press conferences about 'i had a great camp', you don't your body through those kinds of rigours without carrying some kind of niggle.  They don't all live easy cushy lives that don't have shit going on in them, the only difference is we all love Mike and dissect the minutia of his life and pore over it obssessively and then make these kinds of fuckin' excuses but there are no fuckin' excuses, an L is an L whether its Ali fighting Holmes or Tyson fighting Kevin McBridge, thats what you get judged by, thats what you live and die on.

This is part of why Mayweather, love him or hate him, is so amazing.  He is the consummate professional.  50 times, no fuckin' excuses and any time a fight was even vaguely close he ran it back and did the job again, better, so there's no contentious points.  Joe Louis, for all you say about him, lost one fight in 14 years.  Thats 14 fuckin' years.  fighting at the top level.  And he went to the army in between that shit too.  Everyone goes on infinitely about the effect not going to the army had on Ali and how he was never the same man, no one even says shit about Joe Louis and he came back and still dealt with opponents.  And you don't think Joe Louis was going through some shit in his life? 

And Tyson and Lewis, Lewises chin was no better in 2002 than it was in the 90s, you can't train a chin, its just Mike couldn't touch it. 

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These are my true feelings. I'm not saying Mike is the GOAT, that's Ali and I'm not arguing it. But Iron Mike Tyson was the most talented heavyweight to EVER step in a boxing ring.

I disagree, Mike couldn't fight going backwards, every time a fighter backed him up he struggled, the D'amato style is built for exciting boxing and aggressive defence but the fact is you tie Mike up, pop him with the jab coming in, smother his inside work, then Mike struggles, just like he did against Douglas, Holy and Lewis.  But then you could argue Ali had flaws in that regard too, ever see Ali throw a bodyshot?  Then again, he kinda never needed to.

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But I also say that if Cus had been 10 years younger, Tyson beats Douglas, then beats Holyfield, doesn't go to prison, and history is VERY different.

Again, this is a popular party line, that Cus woulda kept him on the straight and narrow, people walk around with a couple of books and a documentary or two under their belt acting like they know these people but no one knows what their relationship was like or what it would evolve into, its all just blind conjecture.  IF his trainer had lived, IF he had cared about boxing, IF he wasn't doing drugs, IF he didn't have emotional problems...thats like saying 'well, IF I was a completely different person I could've been heavyweight champion!'

Edited by Len Cnut
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11 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Is that his opponents fault?  Since when did not taking your job seriously and being a dick qualify you for futherance in a field of achievement?  You live and die by what you achieve in the ring and the fact that you were doing drugs or not taking your opponent seriously does not qualify you for a pass, not in sport, not in real life, not in anything. 

That would be like me arguing that I should be counted amongst the best short term memory having people in the world as I was pretty sharp in that area pre-2000. :lol:  

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20 minutes ago, Dazey said:

That would be like me arguing that I should be counted amongst the best short term memory having people in the world as I was pretty sharp in that area pre-2000. :lol:  

Its just a ridiculous mode of thinking, isn’t it?  I mean, you’ve done coke right, got pissed and all that, imagine going into work tommorow, off your tits from the night before, fucking shit up and then everyone going ‘nah, but he’s a cracking chemical engineer when he’s not on charlie though, be fair!’ :lol:  Thats not how life works, for anyone...apart from Mike Tyson apparently.

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I'm not making excuses for him, just pointing out that his story IS different than most others. He had the world by the balls by 20 years old, how would you of handled it? How would anyone of handled it? With no one in his corner that really cared (after Cus died). He got swept up by Don King's Bs, chewed and spit back out. 

No other fighter has had to deal with anything remotely as challenging (barring Jack Johnson's racist stuff). Not even Ali had as tough of a road personally. Yes he had the whole Vietnam thing, but that was HIS choice, we tend to over look that. Sure Tyson didn't HAVE to go with Don King, but King manipulated a 20 year old kid. A kid with no family, and no one that really cared about him at all. King then turned it into a white vs black thing, saying guys like Rooney were "slave masters" and come over here to where it will be blacks helping blacks. How did that work out for him? Total mind game. That's when Tyson started his decline, right before the first Bruno fight. Then came Douglas, and he was NEVER the same animal again. Surely you recognize this? The closest fights to "real" Tyson after the Bruno fight was the two against Ruddock. Which those are two epic heavyweight slugfests, that I watch fairly often. But even in those fights, Mike just wanted to out slug Ruddock. Not nearly as much defense and head movement, not nearly as many body shots, loading up for one or two big shots, etc. 

So this is where we agree to disagree, I say YES throw the records out the window. Why? Because Tyson's career is the BIGGEST what if in sports history. It doesn't compare in the slightest to anything you or I have gone through. When comparing to other fighters, you use your eye test. Name me one other heavyweight that looked better in the gym? Ali? No freaking way. Watching Tyson train is STILL to this day unlike anything else we've ever seen. Even Holyfield said recently "nobody out worked Mike in the gym." So Tyson out worked and out talented any heavyweight that has ever lived. That's gotta count for something man. That's why the "what ifs" DO count when they come to Tyson. Plus the eye test don't lie. You can't tell me that if we put a prime Joe Louis (again I love him) and a prime Tyson in the ring, Louis is in for some trouble? What do your EYES tell you?

 

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17 hours ago, spunko12345 said:

😂😂😂 that farmer blatantly had a visit from someone of thick set Irish descent or an MTK "associate"

Or he was just a lying bastard to begin with getting slipped a couple of grand under the table by The Sun for a spurious story. 

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I'm not making excuses for him, just pointing out that his story IS different than most others. He had the world by the balls by 20 years old, how would you of handled it? How would anyone of handled it? With no one in his corner that really cared (after Cus died). He got swept up by Don King's Bs, chewed and spit back out. 

Not really hugely different, young man, comes into a shitload of money and success, doesn't have a support system (how many of these ghetto kids that become huge fighters do?) didn't handle his business well, that sounds a shitload like many many boxers.  As far as who cared for him in his corner, well thats a matter of the people that were actually there, the guys Cus put in place are considered by some to be wholly honourable (i.e. Jim Jacobs, Bill Cayton) and by others, including Mike in the case of Cayton, not so honourable.  I dunno, this shit is a mans personal life and I don't take any of it for granted but what boxer did get an easy ride in that regard?  I'm not arguing that it is or isn't easy it handle, I'm just sticking to the facts, that he didn't handle it well, its not my job to justify to condemn Mikes life.

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No other fighter has had to deal with anything remotely as challenging (barring Jack Johnson's racist stuff). Not even Ali had as tough of a road personally. Yes he had the whole Vietnam thing, but that was HIS choice, we tend to over look that.

Ali's was a MILLION times harder.  What the fuck was hard for Mike compared to Ali, Mike was groomed for greatness, he had the title, he had relatively easier opponents and he had a support system put there by his surrogate father, he wasn't a figurehead for a part of the Civil Rights movement when figureheads for the Civil Rights movement were getting shot in the street, he wasn't banned from fighting for three years, striped of his title, left almost bankrupt etc etc  And Ali was what, 22 when he won the title?  What happened in those two years from age 20 to 22 that makes Ali somehow infinitely more mature and equipped to handle the pressures of fame and fortune than Mike?  And y'know what else Ali didn't do?  He didn't use that other shit as an excuse for losing fights. 

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but King manipulated a 20 year old kid. A kid with no family, and no one that really cared about him at all. King then turned it into a white vs black thing, saying guys like Rooney were "slave masters" and come over here to where it will be blacks helping blacks. How did that work out for him? Total mind game.

OR...Tyson wanted to go with King because King didn't give a shit about his behaviour and thats what Tyson wanted, someone who would let him fuck around, not train, shag prostitutes left right and centre, smoke weed, do coke and generally live the life of Reilly.  Who cared about Sonny Liston, read about that guys life.  Or Roberto Duran.  Or Ray Robinson, have a look see how some of those guys came up.  Boxing is overflowing with dead end kids with nobody behind him.  He was immature, arrogant etc etc but don't tell me the fuckin' guy didn't know right from wrong, he didn't know that you're not supposed to fuck whores and do coke and skip training camp, all this shit was like, a revelation to him?  Come on.  Where Mike was from I'm sure it wasn't the first time in his life he ever heard that white guys were using him, all the while up to his fuckin' eyeballs in money from fight purses and Pepsi and Nintendo sponsorship, lets not make out that it was all fuckin' grit and grime for Mike, yeah his first 12 years were rough, after that he was either living in the Catskills and then became one of the youngest millionaires and most celebrated sportsman in the world, this guy wasn't going through THAT tough a time, comparitively speaking, certainly not in the context of this conversation which is ostensibly about a guy flushing his career down the toilet, then again in Mikes defence he did become the undisputed HW champ by basically clearing out the division so its not been that much of a waste, certainly not something to warrant sympathy or pity. 

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That's when Tyson started his decline, right before the first Bruno fight. Then came Douglas, and he was NEVER the same animal again. Surely you recognize this? The closest fights to "real" Tyson after the Bruno fight was the two against Ruddock. Which those are two epic heavyweight slugfests, that I watch fairly often. But even in those fights, Mike just wanted to out slug Ruddock. Not nearly as much defense and head movement, not nearly as many body shots, loading up for one or two big shots, etc. 

Yeah I recognise this, it doesn't stand contrary to anything I said though, the guy got a lot of money, it went to his head, he started fuckin' around and wasn't the same man anymore.  That isn't grounds for a pass.  Why is the one winning the fights 'the real Tyson' and the cunt that spunked it all away not the real Tyson?  They're both the real Tyson, you can make excuses all day long, here look, I'll do it for Ali, first Frazier fight, came off a huge lay off and fought him too quickly, doesn't count, loss to Norton, wasn't training, didn't take him seriously, doesn't count, loss to Leon Spinks, same thing, loss to Larry Holmes, pushed out of retirement for money cuz of an 8 million cheque waved around by Don King, was clearly finished with a lack of motor skills, doesn't count, Trevor Berbick, doesn't count...once the bell rings and you step inside, they all fuckin' count.  This isn't something that creeps up on you or something you have to make a snap desicion about, these training camps last months, if you are not ready or somehow handicapped, don't fuckin' fight because they all count, regardless of whether you're my hero (and Ali and Mike both are, though Ali more than Mike). 

You can blame Don King, or whores, or whatever but this is boxing, this is a sport, whatever the reasons for you fuckin' up if you fucked up then you fucked up, there are no excuses, the man with the better record that achieved the things that your favourite guy didn't, in a logical discussion, is the better man, regardless of whether or not you like someone or choose to write off a persons record.

Look at this way, I'm a dyed in the wool Mike Tyson fan, I hated Lennox Lewis most of my childhood, couldn't stand the guy, didn't rate him as a figher (at least when stacked against the position he was given in boxing)...but end of the day when you grow up, get mature and start acting like an adult you stop and realise, 'hang on, whys this guy not getting my respect?  He's done basically what a fighters supposed to do, beat the best of his day (the ones who didn't throw their titles in the bin anyway) and retired on top.  But what, Little Len don't like him because he starched his boyhood hero.  I'll tell you the truth, that fight made me sick.  But end of the day, when the smoke clears whoose fault is that?  Mine?  Yours?  Lennox Lewises?  Or Mikes for being a cunt?  Or someone like Joe Calzaghe, never liked him, he always fought and beat men out of their prime to me.  But was that his fault?  Retired undefeated, what was it, 46 and 0?  He deserves respect, Lennox Lewis deserves respect, Evander Holyfield deserves respect.  Its a mans game and when you beat a man you beat him, no excuses or crying and complaining after the fact, its a bad look, Mike certainly doesn't do it.

Men like Ali, Joe Louis, that you sit their casually writing off in comparison to Mike, these flogged their guts out in the ring, beat the best of their time and can go out with their heads held high.  Talkin' about people like Joe Louis had an easier time than Mike Tyson, growing up in the 20s and fighting in the 30s as a black man in America, come on man.  Y'know they taught that guy never to raise his hands over a fallen opponent, never to celebrate winning a fight because it made you look like an upitty n!gger...meanwhile there's Mike ballin' prostitutes in the MGM grand, wired out of his brains on cocaine :lol:  I'm not saying Mike had anything like an easy life by any stretch of the imagination but he also saw a lot more of the good life than anybody reading this is ever likely to even approach so lets balance this shit out a bit. 

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So this is where we agree to disagree, I say YES throw the records out the window.

Right well thats where we will forever differ because, in boxing, the record is what a fighter stands on.

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When comparing to other fighters, you use your eye test. Name me one other heavyweight that looked better in the gym? Ali? No freaking way. Watching Tyson train is STILL to this day unlike anything else we've ever seen. Even Holyfield said recently "nobody out worked Mike in the gym."

Chris Eubank Jnr looks AMAZING in the gym, stunning.  James Toney often looked awful, didn't even train that hard, preferred sparring...whoose the better fighter?  You do not see talent in the gym, what matters is the ring and what happens there.  And plenty of fighters out-worked Tyson, Ali practically lived in the gym in the early days of the 5th Street.  Also, intelligent fighters use the gym to work on their weaknesses, not smashing the fuck out of hapless sparring partners or throwing rapid combos. 

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So Tyson out worked and out talented any heavyweight that has ever lived. That's gotta count for something man. That's why the "what ifs" DO count when they come to Tyson. Plus the eye test don't lie. You can't tell me that if we put a prime Joe Louis (again I love him) and a prime Tyson in the ring, Louis is in for some trouble? What do your EYES tell you?

My eyes tell me Mike outweighs him by about 30 lbs, my eyes tell me that a guy like Joe Louis if he was around in Mike times would be more likely to be fighting at Cruiserweight.  My eyes tell me that Joe Louis was one of the best technical boxers ever.  My eyes tell me that old grainy footage from the 30s and 40s is not of a quality high enough for you to see exactly what he is doing to those 50 odd opponents that he knocked the fuck out.  My eyes tell me that he had amazing footwork, precision punching, he never wasted a shot, had a fantastic jab and there is no man for whom Joe Louis would be a walk in the park, including the great Mike Tyson but I'm sure he'd tell you that himself.  And again, like I said in my first post, you're comparing a guy from the 30s to a guy from the 80s, 50 years of evolution in training, nutrition, conditioning coaching, mental coaching, its not a fair comparison, you just a judge a man based on the men who were there to fight in his day, not condemn him for an imaginary fight you might've liked to've seen with someone from an entirely different time and place for him, in much the same way you don't judge a guy from the 50s by todays moral standards where it was societally acceptable to discipline your kids with a stick and drive with 8 pints of ale in you.

Edited by Len Cnut
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