Jump to content

The Boxing Thread


Recommended Posts

10 hours ago, spunko12345 said:

There is nothing wrong with holding boxers from the past up and giving them their dues. We all enjoy doing that, its a unique part of boxing fandom, getting into the history of fights and revisiting them.

But you seem to fetishize Mike Tyson. Hes been and gone mate, in 2020 he cannot beat Deontay Wilder. You can bang on to me about his head movement all you want but I'm going on biology and the degeneration of the human body which happens to everyone. Even Mike Tyson. 

Even I must fetishize him to a point them because I just can’t bring myself to say he’d lose to Deontay Wilder :lol:  Even though, y’know, he fuckin’ lost to Kevin McBridge (yeah, who?  Exactly) in his last fight 15 yrs ago).

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 4.8k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

It is, yes   Up North they even bung it on the end of sentences, inexplicably!  Example: Normal Human Being:  Alright Ted, where you off to? Northern Pig:  I’m off up t’pub like!

The fight that Leonard claimed 'taught me survival' and also led to his retina problems later.

I laugh heartily at anyone who paid for that shitshow.

2 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

Even I must fetishize him to a point them because I just can’t bring myself to say he’d lose to Deontay Wilder :lol:  Even though, y’know, he fuckin’ lost to Kevin McBridge (yeah, who?  Exactly) in his last fight 15 yrs ago).

And if my nan had bollocks she'd be my grandad.

We'll never know. Unless they do actually fight as part of this Tyson comeback of course. In which case I'll obviously be proved right 😄

Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Tyson would utterly murder Wilder!! Why is this even a conversation?

Because he wouldn’t...because he’s an old man.  Because it would be an awful awful sight.  Kevin McBride he lost to in his last fight, Kevin McBride...and Danny Williams before that.  Yes, the man who went on to lose to Audley Harrison :lol:  And that was 15 years ago.

Edited by Len Cnut
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

Without positing any theories as to why, boxing is certifiably the most nostalgic sport of all - at least among the sports I follow. All sports are nostalgic but no sport seems to exist with such a then and now

It always did, its nothing knew, I remee during the 90s golden era (Lewis Bowe Tyson Holyfield Roy Jones James Toney Etc etc etc, i could go on for yonks) my old mans generation saying they weren’t shit compared to the 60s and 70s.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Because he wouldn’t...because he’s an old man.  Because it would be an awful awful sight.  Kevin McBride he lost to in his last fight, Kevin McBride...and Danny Williams before that.  Yes, the man who went on to lose to Audley Harrison :lol:  And that was 15 years ago.

I didn't mean now

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, DieselDaisy said:

I didn't mean now

The argument is about now, no one in their right mind would argue Wilder over Tyson in his prime, Tyson would shake him off like drippings off the end of his dick.

  • Haha 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Len Cnut said:

The argument is about now, no one in their right mind would argue Wilder over Tyson in his prime, Tyson would shake him off like drippings off the end of his dick.

I think Tyson would have murdered him outside of his prime also, circa Lennox fight. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I was only responding to Iron Mikey Jr saying that a 2020 Tyson would beat 2020 Wilder which he couldn't possibly. Obviously a prime Tyson is going to rip into 2020 Wilder or any other Wilder for than matter but that wasn't my point. 

40 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Tyson would shake him off like drippings off the end of his dick.

I couldnt have put it in a more revolting way if I tried 😄

Link to post
Share on other sites

Disagree with me all you want (that's fine, and is kinda the point of these what ifs), but I honestly believe Tyson right NOW would win 6/10 against Wilder. I'm not saying it would be easy, or he'd just run him over (in his prime yes, Wilder doesn't get past round 3). 

For me it's all about the era, and this era is pretty weak. Sure it's better now than it was 10 years ago. But 10 years ago it was the weakest era of heavyweight boxing arguably EVER. So anything is an improvement. Fury is the only legit guy out there right now (meaning he would have been good in any era). AJ is Frank Bruno 2.0, which nothing wrong with that, but Bruno didn't exactly light up the 90s. Wilder is harder to compare. He's not Mike Tyson, not Foreman, not Liston, not even Shavers (who never won a belt). I guess the best comparisons would be closer to like a David Tua or Razor Ruddock (both never won a title, but I think both were quite a bit better than Wilder).  Tua or Ruddock, in their primes would have put Wilder on his back imo, yet neither won championships in their eras. 

As Len said, guys from the 70s used to rag on guys from the 90s, and they had a point. The 70s was the best era in heavyweight history, so any era comes up short compared to it. Having said that, they also cut the 90s a little short, I would argue it was the 2nd best era all time. Some eras are better and worse than other eras, it's just a fact. That's why you can't say that Deontay Wilder is better than a guy like Earnie Shavers. Shavers never won a belt in the hardest era ever, while Wilder did win a belt in one of the weaker eras. Who do you think was the better fighter? My money would be on Shavers. But if Ring Magazine (or some other publication) had a 100 best heavyweights ever list, I'm sure Wilder would be rated higher because he won a belt. So I personally only look at in ring accomplishments as half of the equation. The other half, is the eye test. Who do my eyes tell me is the better fighter? Who has better technique, footwork, in ring presence, etc. 

Why is boxing (especially in America) seemingly declining, when it is thriving in the UK and elsewhere? That seems to be the question of the day. I've heard guys talk about this (Roy Jones, Tyson, Mayweather, others) and it's because (here in America), boxing has become a niche sport. Your average guy from 1998 (or so) and before, learned boxing if they wanted to learn how to fight. Now they do MMA instead, so that's part of the problem. Another part of the problem is many of the old boxing gyms are no longer in business. Take what Cus did with Tyson as an example. This old man, basically adopts this 12 year old black kid, gives him a place to live and teaches him boxing. That just doesn't happen anymore. Cus took on all the risk by doing that, all the expenses. If Tyson never amounts to anything, Cus lost all that time, money, and effort for nothing. So it's a huge gamble to develop younger fighters. It's easier to wait till a guy is 18, then you can at least make some money back on his pro fights. But by that time, hes behind on the 8 ball (this is what happened with Wilder). They found an older guy with potential, and carried him to the top. But he never learned the fundamentals of boxing, not properly anyways. 

Bottom line, the development process for fighters here in America is really weak right now, and won't likely change. Which in turn has had a HUGE effect on the sport in general. That's also why (I believe) we've seen so many fighters succeed from England and the rest of Europe lately. They still have decent fighter development going on. Sure in America, there are a few of the legendary gyms still open. Here in my home town, Chris Byrd and Andre Durrell are from Flint. As a result, Flint has a good boxing program, if you want to learn. But if we didn't have Byrd and Durrell, we wouldn't have that gym anymore, which I'm sure has happened in MANY cities.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

Even I must fetishize him to a point them because I just can’t bring myself to say he’d lose to Deontay Wilder :lol:  Even though, y’know, he fuckin’ lost to Kevin McBridge (yeah, who?  Exactly) in his last fight 15 yrs ago).

Yes, he lost. But he didn't care about boxing at that point. He ONLY fought because the IRS was on him, he owed money. It was the easiest way to get them off his back. But Mike didn't care about boxing or training at that time. Honestly, the last time Mike probably took boxing/training seriously was before the 2nd Ruddock fight, at least when I watch his career, that's how I see it. Even those Ruddock fights are NOT the best of Tyson, but they DO show that Mike can win a fight when faced with serious adversity (despite what some of his critics say). Every fight after the Holyfield fights you can see a steady decline in skills. Was some of it due to age? Yes. But Mike was still young enough, that if he REALLY wanted to (dedicate himself to training), he could have and should have beaten both Holyfield and Lewis. But he didn't, and those two trained for the fight of their lives (I'm sure). You can say "I'm just making excuses." But the proof is in the pudding, how does Mike look better at 54 than he did at 38? Because he is actually trying now, that's the difference. 

On a side note, Buster Douglas has talked about fighting Mike in one of these exhibitions.  Mike would probably go for the knockout on Buster, lol. Speaking of Buster, I watched an interview by him the other day, and man... Poor Buster needs a hug. You can see he still has ALL SORTS of confidence issues. He LOVES to talk about Tokyo, but you can see he HATES talking about why Tyson didn't get a rematch, the Holyfield fight, and everything after. I'll be the first to admit that he plain ducked Mike after Tokyo, and I also think he got lucky that night as well. Having said that though, you were Undisputed Heavyweight Champion of the world. How many living men can say that? Tyson, Holmes, Bowe, Foreman, Holyfield, Lewis, Rahman... Anyone else??? That's a pretty elite club. Have some pride Buster. I may not "like him" because of who he beat, but I gotta respect the man. Anyways, it pains me to see him STILL shaken about his legacy all these years later. Mike's come to terms with the loss, but it's like Buster still hasn't come to terms with the win. Interesting imo...

Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Why is boxing (especially in America) seemingly declining, when it is thriving in the UK and elsewhere? That seems to be the question of the day. I've heard guys talk about this (Roy Jones, Tyson, Mayweather, others) and it's because (here in America), boxing has become a niche sport. Your average guy from 1998 (or so) and before, learned boxing if they wanted to learn how to fight. Now they do MMA instead, so that's part of the problem. Another part of the problem is many of the old boxing gyms are no longer in business. Take what Cus did with Tyson as an example. This old man, basically adopts this 12 year old black kid, gives him a place to live and teaches him boxing. That just doesn't happen anymore. Cus took on all the risk by doing that, all the expenses. If Tyson never amounts to anything, Cus lost all that time, money, and effort for nothing. So it's a huge gamble to develop younger fighters. It's easier to wait till a guy is 18, then you can at least make some money back on his pro fights. But by that time, hes behind on the 8 ball (this is what happened with Wilder). They found an older guy with potential, and carried him to the top. But he never learned the fundamentals of boxing, not properly anyways. 

Its something of a niche sport here too, its not so much on the rise, its just the your lot have gotten shitter so the competition is balancing out :lol:  Also, with all due respect, Americans are getting soft.  This is my sociological theory.  Boxing flourishes where a particular part of the population have it hard.  Black Americans, the last American race to dominate boxing, perhaps, don't have it as hard anymore, ain't cut from the same cloth?  Now I ain't an American, I don't see that shit but I read, there's a growing black middle class over there (not that this started yesterday).  Even Mexican Americans ain't hot shit like they used to be.  Most of our boxers come from the gypsy community or poor black people from urban communities.  And even they ain't tough nuts in the way our Nigel Benns and Chris Eubanks used to be.  AJ is from the same town as me and its basically a home counties type place, certainly not some fuckin' badman manor.  The fact is black Americans appear to have better oppertunities available than to get smacked in the mouth for a living...and the ones that do come out still (and there are some fantastic ones btw) tend to be from places like Baltimore and Detroit and Philidelphia, places that, I am led to believe still have some pretty fucked up and disadvantaged parts.  Now you get a lot of fighters from Eastern European background and Russian fighters and shit, along with a good influx still from South America.

As far as Cus, people make that old guy out to be a bit more of a fuckin' saint than he was.  He had fighters living with him in the Catskills and Mike was one of em, he only adopted him later in the day when he showed signs of prodigious talent, Cus saw in Tyson an oppertunity to make a lot of fuckin' money and make himself a fuckin' big noise in the boxing scene too, he wasn't just this fuckin' saint who adopted this kid after seeing him have a quick little spar, it was very obvious from day one that Mike had a lot of the tools and if he could he honed and harnesed then he was a fuckin' earner.  Remember, this kid was smashing through people that were a level or two above him.  Cus was not some kind of kindly old gentleman that saw poor disadvantaged Mike and took him under his wing and stroked him, he was a mean and nasty old Italian bag of nails.  And hey, thats not a bad thing cuz it certainly worked wonders with Mike.  All Cuses life he struggled to find someone that truly suited and worked his peekaboo style perfectly.  He had Patterson (tall, glass chinned), Jose Torres, Buster Mathis...but Tyson was tailor-made for that shit. 

Cus was great for boxing but I'm not sure how well he could be considered as great as he is these days.  I'd put Angie Dundee ahead of him, Ray Arcel above him, a great many. 

Quote

Yes, he lost. But he didn't care about boxing at that point. He ONLY fought because the IRS was on him, he owed money. It was the easiest way to get them off his back. But Mike didn't care about boxing or training at that time. Honestly, the last time Mike probably took boxing/training seriously was before the 2nd Ruddock fight, at least when I watch his career, that's how I see it. Even those Ruddock fights are NOT the best of Tyson, but they DO show that Mike can win a fight when faced with serious adversity (despite what some of his critics say). Every fight after the Holyfield fights you can see a steady decline in skills. Was some of it due to age? Yes. But Mike was still young enough, that if he REALLY wanted to (dedicate himself to training), he could have and should have beaten both Holyfield and Lewis. But he didn't, and those two trained for the fight of their lives (I'm sure). You can say "I'm just making excuses." But the proof is in the pudding, how does Mike look better at 54 than he did at 38? Because he is actually trying now, that's the difference. 

Lacking commitment is hardly a good reference...and even less of an excuse to explain why a guy got tanked.  And no, he doesn't look better now that he did at 38, he just doesn't.

Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Its something of a niche sport here too, its not so much on the rise, its just the your lot have gotten shitter so the competition is balancing out :lol:  Also, with all due respect, Americans are getting soft.  This is my sociological theory.  Boxing flourishes where a particular part of the population have it hard.  Black Americans, the last American race to dominate boxing, perhaps, don't have it as hard anymore, ain't cut from the same cloth?  Now I ain't an American, I don't see that shit but I read, there's a growing black middle class over there (not that this started yesterday).  Even Mexican Americans ain't hot shit like they used to be.  Most of our boxers come from the gypsy community or poor black people from urban communities.  And even they ain't tough nuts in the way our Nigel Benns and Chris Eubanks used to be.  AJ is from the same town as me and its basically a home counties type place, certainly not some fuckin' badman manor.  The fact is black Americans appear to have better oppertunities available than to get smacked in the mouth for a living...and the ones that do come out still (and there are some fantastic ones btw) tend to be from places like Baltimore and Detroit and Philidelphia, places that, I am led to believe still have some pretty fucked up and disadvantaged parts.  Now you get a lot of fighters from Eastern European background and Russian fighters and shit, along with a good influx still from South America.

As far as Cus, people make that old guy out to be a bit more of a fuckin' saint than he was.  He had fighters living with him in the Catskills and Mike was one of em, he only adopted him later in the day when he showed signs of prodigious talent, Cus saw in Tyson an oppertunity to make a lot of fuckin' money and make himself a fuckin' big noise in the boxing scene too, he wasn't just this fuckin' saint who adopted this kid after seeing him have a quick little spar, it was very obvious from day one that Mike had a lot of the tools and if he could he honed and harnesed then he was a fuckin' earner.  Remember, this kid was smashing through people that were a level or two above him.  Cus was not some kind of kindly old gentleman that saw poor disadvantaged Mike and took him under his wing and stroked him, he was a mean and nasty old Italian bag of nails.  And hey, thats not a bad thing cuz it certainly worked wonders with Mike.  All Cuses life he struggled to find someone that truly suited and worked his peekaboo style perfectly.  He had Patterson (tall, glass chinned), Jose Torres, Buster Mathis...but Tyson was tailor-made for that shit. 

Cus was great for boxing but I'm not sure how well he could be considered as great as he is these days.  I'd put Angie Dundee ahead of him, Ray Arcel above him, a great many. 

Lacking commitment is hardly a good reference...and even less of an excuse to explain why a guy got tanked.  And no, he doesn't look better now that he did at 38, he just doesn't.

Len, I agree about everything you said about Cus. He wasn't taking in just anyone, no way. They had to have something about them he liked. He wasn't a saint, no way. He had his own interests in mind as well. Having said that, he DID take guys in, give them room and board, food, a gym, pay for clothes and workout essentials, plus PAY someone to train them (Teddy Atlas in Tysons case). That's a pretty HUGE finacial commitments, if you think about it. Even when they turn pro, they make what $50 per fight at first. It's that gamble on these young fighters that just doesn't happen anymore. I understand WHY, but it's also why boxing has regressed imo, not progressed. Even a great fighter like Wlad Klitchko, I don't know how great he would have been if you put him in the 90s or 70s. He still would have been a serious contender, yes. But did he have the level of amature training, etc to REALLY prepare himself for guys like Ali, Foreman, Tyson, etc that had been boxing since they were 12? You can't underestimate how valuable starting so young is. Wilder didn't start boxing till he was like 21, 22. Mike had been fighting and training for 10 years at that point.

I also agree that Angelo Dundee is #1 all time trainer (for me anyways), but I'd have Cus at #2. Angelo had Ali and Leonard, can't argue with that.

Edited by Iron MikeyJ
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Still say Buster Douglas is the biggest sporting upset in sporting history. 

Yup. 

This is the interview I was talking about. At times I want to give the guy a hug and say "Buster you are the man, you have NOTHING to be ashamed of, before or AFTER Tokyo." I say that as HUGE Tyson fan obviously.

 

 

Edited by Iron MikeyJ
Link to post
Share on other sites

It is impossible to iterate how seismic that was, unless you followed the late '80s Tyson hype, which I was just young enough to do so. Still unbelievable today - like something out of Rocky really.

It is moments like that why I watch sport.

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It is impossible to iterate how seismic that was, unless you followed the late '80s Tyson hype, which I was just young enough to do so. Still unbelievable today - like something out of Rocky really.

It is moments like that why I watch sport.

It's one of those stories that make boxing (the heavyweight division especially) so compelling. When you really go back and look at all the legendary fights and legendary moments, it's really unlike any other sport. Heavyweight boxing during the ENTIRE 20th century is literally THE best sports story of all time imo. We could just go on and on about all the moments that were "seismic". Every fight fan should start there, just trace the lineage from Jack Johnson untill Lennox Lewis. Amazing stuff really.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Len, I agree about everything you said about Cus. He wasn't taking in just anyone, no way. They had to have something about them he liked. He wasn't a saint, no way. He had his own interests in mind as well. Having said that, he DID take guys in, give them room and board, food, a gym, pay for clothes and workout essentials, plus PAY someone to train them (Teddy Atlas in Tysons case). That's a pretty HUGE finacial commitments, if you think about it. Even when they turn pro, they make what $50 per fight at first. It's that gamble on these young fighters that just doesn't happen anymore. I understand WHY, but it's also why boxing has regressed imo, not progressed. Even a great fighter like Wlad Klitchko, I don't know how great he would have been if you put him in the 90s or 70s. He still would have been a serious contender, yes. But did he have the level of amature training, etc to REALLY prepare himself for guys like Ali, Foreman, Tyson, etc that had been boxing since they were 12? You can't underestimate how valuable starting so young is. Wilder didn't start boxing till he was like 21, 22. Mike had been fighting and training for 10 years at that point.

I also agree that Angelo Dundee is #1 all time trainer (for me anyways), but I'd have Cus at #2. Angelo had Ali and Leonard, can't argue with that.

I have a theory.  You can't be a great and start boxing when you are 16 or 18.  There are fighters who are taken in off the streets by trainers still, Lamont Peterson and his brother for example.  Gervonta Davis was damn near on the streets too.

A lot of people say that Angie ain't that great of a trainer in that he never developed a fighter from a kid and just kinda took on fully formed fighters.  Ali and Leonard were already olympic champions when they came to Ang'.    I don't agree personally but its a theory out there.  No trainer beats Ray Arcel, 20 world champions...20 for crying out loud.

21 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Yup. 

This is the interview I was talking about. At times I want to give the guy a hug and say "Buster you are the man, you have NOTHING to be ashamed of, before or AFTER Tokyo." I say that as HUGE Tyson fan obviously.

 

 

Also, it wasn't a flash knockout, luck of the draw kinda thing, or some fluky Oliver McCall eyes closed punch, he beat the shit out of Mike.  I cried when I saw that fight the first time (fuck off alright, I was a kid, what do you want from me? :lol:)  That bastard Mike Tyson broke my fuckin' heart, robbed me of my innocence, made me realise that I wasn't born in a time of heroes :lol:

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

 

Also, it wasn't a flash knockout, luck of the draw kinda thing, or some fluky Oliver McCall eyes closed punch, he beat the shit out of Mike.  I cried when I saw that fight the first time (fuck off alright, I was a kid, what do you want from me? :lol:)  That bastard Mike Tyson broke my fuckin' heart, robbed me of my innocence, made me realise that I wasn't born in a time of heroes :lol:

Ya, me too. I'm 39 years old, and Mike Tyson in the late 80s was IDK??? Mythic. I remember where I was when I heard the news, I didn't watch the fight. His career was mostly just let down after let down after Douglas as well, which sucks. But there WAS a time, when Mike Tyson was like a real life super hero, an unbeatable beast that will knockout people in the first few seconds of the fight. All the other best fighters can't even get past 3 rounds with him. Just plain invincible.

He WAS in real life, just like he was in the video game. One punch, and your down. Michael Jordan is the only other athlete that I've seen that compares. Jordan surpassed Tyson though, he never let me down.

Edited by Iron MikeyJ
Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Ya, me too. I'm 39 years old, and Mike Tyson in the late 80s was IDK??? Mythic. I remember where I was when I heard the news, I didn't watch the fight. His career was mostly just let down after let down after Douglas as well, which sucks. But there WAS a time, when Mike Tyson was like a real life super hero, an unbeatable beast that will knockout people in the first few seconds of the fight. All the other best fighters can't even get past 3 rounds with him. Just plain invincible.

He WAS in real life, just like he was in the video game. One punch, and your down. Michael Jordan is the only other athlete that I've seen that compares. Jordan surpassed Tyson though, he never let me down.

Jordan only means something if you're American though, over here he's just a name on a pair of trainers.  Tyson was worldwide.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Anybody care to hear my thoughts in regards to Holyfield?

Dude was on roids for the Tyson fights. For one, he WAS named in a steroid clinic controversy. For two, look at his career, the dude was a cruiserweight and ended up being bigger than Mike. Tyson was naturally a heavyweight, Holyfield was not. 

My final piece of evidence is his first title run. He weighed less, looked smaller, etc during this run. He also had hair (which roids effects that). In the third Bowe fight, Holyfield was WASHED. I've never seen another fighter look so old, wore out, and just plain DONE as Holyfield looked in that 3rd fight. Yes he said he had a "heart condition" then two years later magically goes away (which is questionable). 

Then he comes back, bigger and better than ever. IDK, when you add it all up, sounds like roids to me. I'm not knocking his first title run, I think he was clean then. He got in the ring with Bowe for the first fight, and wasn't sure if he could hang at heavy anymore. But I WILL give him the 2nd fight with Bowe, he earned that one (and might have been clean for it as well). But after the loss to Michael Moore, then to Riddick for the 2nd time (and looked bad during that loss), I can't think of another story quite like that. What fighter has looked DONE like that, and come back better than ever? Usually when they are washed, they are done, it's over. 

Then for the Tyson fight, he comes back bigger and better than ever. It just doesn't "feel" right to me. Tyson has alluded to it in interviews. He's never said "Holyfield was on roids" but he HAS said "I wanted them to know I was BETTER than them, man to man, without help" and "guys wanted to get that extra edge, everybody knew." Given that Holyfield was named in a steroid controversy, who else could he be alluding to?

Edited by Iron MikeyJ
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   1 member




×
×
  • Create New...