Are men upset with women?

[Orsys]

I went to a dinner party with friends and some new acquaintances. This concept of MGTOW (Men Going Their own way) came up. That and misandry, anti-feminism. The subject of a guy named Sandman came up. seems to be a minor prophet on anti-female sentiments. I searched him on YouTube and he has a bunch of stuff out there that mainly promotes himself, but also includes quite a bit of anti-female propaganda.

If I understand this right, men are upset because women have had it too good and as a result men have been emasculated. They want their rights back and women should return to "their place" as nature dictates. This is primarily cooking and cleaning and having babies. Feminism is the cancer that goes against nature.

Not surprisingly, heated debates were the focus of the evening. And I didn't get it. Arguments were that these "men's rights" groups were not really about cutting women down, but building men back up. I say go for it, but all I heard in the discussion was quite an aggression against women that made me uncomfortable.

Is this really a thing? I guess I was too busy working and paying the bills on my own to understand I had somehow stolen men's ability to be men.

[magisme]

[DieselDaisy]

It will all end up level soon enough - history will correct itself. Man is developing moobs.

[Rovim]

Most women can't drive or think logically and collapse under pressure and start to cry so that's annoying.

[magisme]

It's one of those issues you really can't have a reasonable discussion about. All sides are too emotionally involved.

[Len Cnut]

It is a hugely real thing and a lot of men do think that way but y'know i think there's a difference between what comes out of our mouth when we are asked for our opinion and what he act upon in day to day life.

My only problem with this kinda stuff, or principle problem with this kinda stuff, is that i don't think I'm equipped to speak for other guys. Y'know how in these situations it's almost a silent agreement that there's some cross-gender consensus about all these key issues and aspects of the whole experience so uh, i dunno, I'm not personally upset no but then I'm kinda attached to females, girls can get away with a lot in my book, I'm a lot harder on guys, with girls its just like 'oh, you so crazy girl!'

Anyway, fuck em, let em be upset if they wanna, enjoy your time while it's here, if it's even here.

[magisme]

inb4 accusations of "manchild" and "feminazi" or whatever else dumbs down the discussion.

[SoulMonster]

I went to a dinner party with friends and some new acquaintances. This concept of MGTOW (Men Going Their own way) came up. That and misandry, anti-feminism. The subject of a guy named Sandman came up. seems to be a minor prophet on anti-female sentiments. I searched him on YouTube and he has a bunch of stuff out there that mainly promotes himself, but also includes quite a bit of anti-female propaganda.

If I understand this right, men are upset because women have had it too good and as a result men have been emasculated. They want their rights back and women should return to "their place" as nature dictates. This is primarily cooking and cleaning and having babies. Feminism is the cancer that goes against nature.

Not surprisingly, heated debates were the focus of the evening. And I didn't get it. Arguments were that these "men's rights" groups were not really about cutting women down, but building men back up. I say go for it, but all I heard in the discussion was quite an aggression against women that made me uncomfortable.

Is this really a thing? I guess I was too busy working and paying the bills on my own to understand I had somehow stolen men's ability to be men.

I am afraid I have noticed the same trend in national media here in Norway. There is absolutely a growing anti-feminismmovement that contains men who are directly anti-women and anti-equality. It is worrying.

[Johnny Drama]

What the Jewish guy said.

[Orsys]

But I find it difficult to really understand the argument because it comes across as bitterness over not getting a job he wants, or getting dumped. If men feel they want to go their own way, away from women, and make an environment where they will feel they have more rights, well, then do that. What is the fight? How am I standing in the way of that? When I said that the other night, the reply was "oh yeah? wait and see what happens to society. Women won't like that" But why be concerned about what women think of it?

I like you guys. I would like you to stay around. But there is no shackle on your ankle. Go, pursue your maleness. But does it have to be so anti-female?

And feminism was not anti-male, it was pro-female. Go ahead and be pro-male. I know I am.

[magisme]

"Feminism" isn't one thing, so you can't really say it's this or that. But that's a whole other discussion.

Can you give us some more specifics about what was said during this conversation, Orsys? The Sandman reference doesn't help me. I only know one Sandman and he's a badass mygnr poster.

[MB.]

(Sorry, had to post it. Made me think of this commercial )

[Johnny Drama]

I don't think you're gonna find many misogynists around here, but there is a big misandrist element in the media that loves to turn everything into a hate crime against women, all the while men are thinking "I said what now?" There's a section in the paper I typically read and it seems to want to get away with said opinions by prefacing that the section is "for women". I mean for starters could you imagine if men did the same thing there? There's the catalyst for your argument if you wanted it.

[Orsys]

It is a hugely real thing and a lot of men do think that way but y'know i think there's a difference between what comes out of our mouth when we are asked for our opinion and what he act upon in day to day life.

My only problem with this kinda stuff, or principle problem with this kinda stuff, is that i don't think I'm equipped to speak for other guys. Y'know how in these situations it's almost a silent agreement that there's some cross-gender consensus about all these key issues and aspects of the whole experience so uh, i dunno, I'm not personally upset no but then I'm kinda attached to females, girls can get away with a lot in my book, I'm a lot harder on guys, with girls its just like 'oh, you so crazy girl!'

Anyway, fuck em, let em be upset if they wanna, enjoy your time while it's here, if it's even here.

In the discussion the other night the couple of guys who were really into this stuff mainly rolled their eyes when a woman spoke, but were passionate when trying to convince the other guys of prejudices against men. .the other men started to agree. It was stuff about divorce settlements and custody rights. Sure these are the hot topics to win people over because you can always come up with examples where men appeared to be the losers against the evil woman who did nothing but eat bonbons and make dastardly plans against the man who was oblivious that there were problems. My experience for some years now is that pendulum is swinging more in favour of men. They didn't want to hear any of that.

I have brothers and a son and want them to have equsl rights. Why would I, as a woman, conspire against them?

Don't worry your pretty little heads about it boys. We're not outta get you

[magisme]

In the US, the ongoing destruction of the white male middle class correlates with the becoming mainstream of a certain brand of watered down, corporatist feminism. Correlation is not causation, but when you're pissed off you tend not to make distinctions.

[Orsys]

"Feminism" isn't one thing, so you can't really say it's this or that. But that's a whole other discussion.

Can you give us some more specifics about what was said during this conversation, Orsys? The Sandman reference doesn't help me. I only know one Sandman and he's a badass mygnr poster.

Men are losing in society because it is set up to promote and support the woman at the expense of men (e.g. woman gets man's job).

Men and boys are being imprisoned and drugged to maintain a control over them.

The courts in divorces favour women in settlements and custody (aren't most judges still men or are we taking that over too?)

Society will suffer and eventually cease in some way because women are not filling their intended biological role (men hunt, women cook, clean, satisfy men and have babies).

I must have missed some feminist meetings where it was decided how we would do all of this to men. I'm probably not living up to my required level of misandry. .too busy working alongside men, vacationing, laughing, cooking, shopping with them.

We were told the other night that the movement is bigger than we think and to get ready. I said "What do I wear?" I swear I thought the guy wanted to belt me (which was also something they felt was a right that they lost. yup he said that).

.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Orsys

[magisme]

Oh dear.

That's how it starts. Angry groups with legitimate grievances but without either the time or brain capacity to think about those grievances become more hostile and militant until finally lashing out at the easiest and nearest targets. Game on.

[netcat]

there will always be people complaining that women (immigrants, insert the desired) took their jobs.

on the other hand, i often hear men complaining about women having equal rights but refusing to take equal responsibilities. like, many women expect men to pay for them at the restaurants, hold the doors for them, carry heavy bags. also there is a large group of women who reject "kitchen slavery", but still all they want is to get married and then spend her husbands' money on shoes, clothes and so on. so men are upset about the double standards. and it's kind of understandable. but to think of it, it's a minimal prise to pay for the centuries of severe patriarchy

[Orsys]

Those examples came up, but I said that I carry my own bags, have been known to pay for dinner often, and when I can't open the pickle jar, I don't immediately go to find a man, I use that contraption that opens jars. And holding a door open is gender neutral. It is just polite.

[magisme]

there will always be people complaining that women (immigrants, insert the desired) took their jobs.

on the other hand, i often hear men complaining about women having equal rights but refusing to take equal responsibilities. like, many women expect men to pay for them at the restaurants, hold the doors for them, carry heavy bags. also there is a large group of women who reject "kitchen slavery", but still all they want is to get married and then spend her husbands' money on shoes, clothes and so on. so men are upset about the double standards. and it's kind of understandable. but to think of it, it's a minimal prise to pay for the centuries of severe patriarchy

The argument is that women want to enjoy the fruits of equality without giving up the perks of patriarchy. It's simplistic but not entirely wrong.

[netcat]

there will always be people complaining that women (immigrants, insert the desired) took their jobs.

on the other hand, i often hear men complaining about women having equal rights but refusing to take equal responsibilities. like, many women expect men to pay for them at the restaurants, hold the doors for them, carry heavy bags. also there is a large group of women who reject "kitchen slavery", but still all they want is to get married and then spend her husbands' money on shoes, clothes and so on. so men are upset about the double standards. and it's kind of understandable. but to think of it, it's a minimal prise to pay for the centuries of severe patriarchy

The argument is that women want to enjoy the fruits of equality without giving up the perks of patriarchy. It's simplistic but not entirely wrong.

exactly. some women learned to use double standards in their favor. and it touches some men on their sore spot which is their egos and their wallets

Edited December 28, 2014 by netcat

[Len Cnut]

It is a hugely real thing and a lot of men do think that way but y'know i think there's a difference between what comes out of our mouth when we are asked for our opinion and what he act upon in day to day life.

My only problem with this kinda stuff, or principle problem with this kinda stuff, is that i don't think I'm equipped to speak for other guys. Y'know how in these situations it's almost a silent agreement that there's some cross-gender consensus about all these key issues and aspects of the whole experience so uh, i dunno, I'm not personally upset no but then I'm kinda attached to females, girls can get away with a lot in my book, I'm a lot harder on guys, with girls its just like 'oh, you so crazy girl!'

Anyway, fuck em, let em be upset if they wanna, enjoy your time while it's here, if it's even here.

In the discussion the other night the couple of guys who were really into this stuff mainly rolled their eyes when a woman spoke, but were passionate when trying to convince the other guys of prejudices against men. .the other men started to agree. It was stuff about divorce settlements and custody rights. Sure these are the hot topics to win people over because you can always come up with examples where men appeared to be the losers against the evil woman who did nothing but eat bonbons and make dastardly plans against the man who was oblivious that there were problems. My experience for some years now is that pendulum is swinging more in favour of men. They didn't want to hear any of that.

I have brothers and a son and want them to have equsl rights. Why would I, as a woman, conspire against them?

Don't worry your pretty little heads about it boys. We're not outta get you

Well look, in terms of divorce kinda shit, yeah, the law is slanted but is slanted for a reason or not, thats the question. I guess the obvious answer is that women are the weaker sex and thats why that shit is geared like that, or rather their job is harder as a single parents so they deserve that bit extra. Is that right or not? I dunno, do you think its right? If so, why?

I think it personally is, is it in every case though? Probably not but laws are kinda more absolute than to be able to handle that equation.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Len B'stard

[magisme]

I think it's more based on the antiquated idea that the man will continue to be the breadwinner, pay alimony, and that the woman, less likely to be employed and more "naturally" given to childrearing will be the caretaker. I'm not entirely sure I'm correct about that though.

[Snake-Pit]

Sometimes if I ask a woman to dance and she just wants to dance and she's nothing special/not hot, that is a turn off.

I like to ask women to dance so it can lead to making out/kissing and whatever else.

[Orsys]

Divorce laws tended to support the post war model. Families moved from the farms where families had worked and contributed as a unit. In the suburbs, women contributed to the home by staying home and raising the kids while dad went out to work. In divorce mom was entitled to an income from that work that would have seen her as largely the one to continue that role.

But times have changed and the divorce model is changing with it. In many cases the woman is the primary bread winner, so the case by case situation must be understood. Shared custody is very common. Women paying alimony is more common.

I believe that each situation must be considered individually. Marriage becomes a more dicey prospect, much more complicated to legally prepare and then resolve when their is divorce. But that's only because it is a legal agreement, and like any legal agreement can become difficult when the agreement ends.

The male vs female thing seems to be an issue of more concern to me if we can't just figure out the day to day living stuff. I mean, I'm not applying for a job for any other reason than to support myself and my family. But it appears men are thinking that I should pause and think that it would be better for society and more fair to men if I did not apply for that job, because it should be his job. That's what I struggle with.

I did ask which jobs us little ole girls could have. His response was those suited for women. So I said, oh so President, bank manager, CEO of major corps. He said "Uh, no dear" I kid you not.