Are men upset with women?

[Amir]

I'd say the two legitimate grievances of the men's rights movements are unfair divorces (not just money, but being able to see your own child), and false rape accusations.

As with the feminism movement, there are rational, legitimate voices making good points, but again, just like how the media likes to blow up the misandrist nutjobs with feminism, they like to focus on the misogynist nutjobs of the men's rights movements.

With both movements, a lot of it is emotionally charged as it comes from bad experiences. The girl who was pumped and dumped by a guy she loved but who didn't love her, or the guy who was rejected by a girl he pined after, etc. I don't think I've ever seen a levelheaded discussion between participants on both sides, it just turns into a "us vs. them" thing, life is too short for that nonsense in my opinion.

There is a feeling of being lied to, and I can understand the hurt that comes from that, but that's just part of growing up. Just like how girls grow up to find there may not be a Prince Charming willing to love them just for who they are, etc., and that a lot of guys out there are dicks, guys will grow up and find there isn't The Perfect Woman out there for them, and that a lot of girls can be bitches. People are people, they come in good and bad, in all different forms, men, women, beautiful, ugly, black, white, whatever.

Rape is bad. False rape accusations are bad. Spousal abuse is bad, regardless of gender. Ridiculous alimony is bad, regardless of gender.

With regards to men feeling emasculated or whatever, I think that's more their mentality. If you let other people's words get you down and make you feel like less of a man or whatever, then that's your fault.

I used to have this problem of blaming everyone else for whatever I felt was wrong with my life, took me a long time to wake up and realise the only person standing in my way was me. I'm extremely fortunate to be a male born in the West who's been lucky enough to have a good education, etc. Any lack of success is really just down to my own lack of effort, I don't have to worry about someone not listening to me because I'm a woman, or assuming I'm a thug because I'm black, or bullying me because I'm gay, etc. I also have the bonus of being slightly brown so I can make racist jokes

Edited December 28, 2014 by Amir

[Graeme]

Man, any group who are historically the most powerful are going to struggle to make concessions for the sake of equality, how many times have you heard the bullshit phrase "I just feel like it's not okay to be a straight, white, protestant male anymore..." or similar depending on the country you're in? These people are being made to confront a fraction of the discrimination that has been perpetrated in their name against minorities throughout history and they feel so fucking entitled that they throw the toys out of the pram when they are perceived to be disadvantaged even a little bit.

That doesn't mean I believe in "positive discrimination", not choosing someone for a job because they are a straight, white, protestant male is every bit as bad as not choosing someone who isn't; true equality should mean the best candidate for the job gets it regardless of what the fuck they are, physically, culturally, spiritually etc. It's a difficult line to tread tbh.

But while a group is discriminated against, it takes a little while for the pendulum to swing back the other way. I think the gap between female and male pay must be finally narrowing in North America. Still lots of work to do in other parts of the world.

I hire a lot of technical people and I really don't think I could have built as strong a team if I was concerned about gender or race. I want the skills and ability to communicate, and I want to develop those that I hire. We have a great mix of men and women and nationalities. So I believe we are getting closer to your ideal, in North America at least.

I think the problem is perhaps more "covert" than "overt"... If you view one decision to employ an individual or deciding how much to pay someone then you would probably struggle to find an interview panel sitting about saying "Well, Laura has a bit more public service experience than Calum, but Calum has a penis, which makes me think he might be a better head of PR." Likewise, I don't think you''ll find any modern company pay policy which has different rules for female employees. It's only when looking at things statistically that these problems become apparent and very real, and for that reason it can be quite difficult to track down the root cause, so any response which is made is much more easily construed as an assault on males.

[Patience 4 Axl]

Is this really some sort of "new" movement? I just assumed it's the same old one that's been lingering for years. If there's been a moment in time when discrimination in any form didn't exist, I definitely missed it. I personally haven't had anything hit my radar that there's recently been a difference in men's attitudes towards women to be honest. I certainly haven't come across any of those dinner guests, well none that would actually say those things to my face. Maybe I've been working too much and haven't been paying attention.

[Orsys]

I had heard of A Voice For Men (AVFM) before as my brother is interested and we had debates in the past. But this MGTOW was new to me.

The dinner guest makeup was nine people, two of which were into this stuff (males). One of those was with his wife. I sensed this is a tricky area for them but can't be sure. She rolled her eyes a couple if times when he spoke, but didn't say much.

My questions focused on practical implementation. Okay, so men and women have to get back to the roles they biologically should play. How does that look when it's happening? What are each of us doing throughout the day when this utopia is reached? Since we evolved to something else, why are they so sure a return to pre-determined roles would fix the ills of the planet?

Theories and philosophies are fine, but I'm a practical girl. I'm still not clear on this part.

[Facekicker]

One thing to remember here, like a lot of issues of race/sexism/equality etc, is that the issues seem to be far more polarized and radicalized in the US than elsewhere.

In the past year or so I have particularly noticed a stream of viral "baiting" relating to these issues coming from the US. It is incredibly irritating shit designed to cause a media shitstorm and further polarize genuine issues.

[Amir]

One thing to remember here, like a lot of issues of race/sexism/equality etc, is that the issues seem to be far more polarized and radicalized in the US than elsewhere.

In the past year or so I have particularly noticed a stream of viral "baiting" relating to these issues coming from the US. It is incredibly irritating shit designed to cause a media shitstorm and further polarize genuine issues.

Also worthless bloggers needing something to write for their worthless blogs. But yeah, clickbaiting is the new sensationalist headline, surefire way to get ad revenue. I doubt the majority of Gawker media articles are written with any sincerity.

[Georgy Zhukov]

I have no problems with women as long as I get my sandwiches.

[Orsys]

No problem. Go get your sandwiches.

[AxlisOld]

There was an episode of American Dad a while back where Stan made a friend, and they reminisced about going back to a simpler time, when white males had all the power. "I know, I hate how we only have most of the power now," he said.

[Spuffy78]

No, just tired of you blaming us for you're supposed lack of independence yet expecting us to fucking buy everything.

[username]

Life was so much easier when you could just hit a woman with your club and drag her back to your cave. That was totally alpha.

Always drag them by the hair though, never by the legs. Nobody likes a muddy vagina.

[magisme]

There's this weird mindset that's reactionary to reactionaries where, instead of the trope that the world is going to hell in a handbasket, we assert that every single thing was worse in the past and is better now. That's just as wrong as what it tries to counter.

Edited December 29, 2014 by magisme

[Len Cnut]

The femenists I know (allegedly) refuse to give head because they think it empowers men. Fuck them...

If politics effects the way you fuck, you got some problems

[netcat]

tell that to people from the countries with government regulation of sex

[Len Cnut]

I thought i just did

[netcat]

"there's no sex in the USSR!"

[Len Cnut]

How To Keep Warm in a Gulag by Ron Jeremy

[Redhead74]

It is a hugely real thing and a lot of men do think that way but y'know i think there's a difference between what comes out of our mouth when we are asked for our opinion and what he act upon in day to day life.

My only problem with this kinda stuff, or principle problem with this kinda stuff, is that i don't think I'm equipped to speak for other guys. Y'know how in these situations it's almost a silent agreement that there's some cross-gender consensus about all these key issues and aspects of the whole experience so uh, i dunno, I'm not personally upset no but then I'm kinda attached to females, girls can get away with a lot in my book, I'm a lot harder on guys, with girls its just like 'oh, you so crazy girl!'

Anyway, fuck em, let em be upset if they wanna, enjoy your time while it's here, if it's even here.

In the discussion the other night the couple of guys who were really into this stuff mainly rolled their eyes when a woman spoke, but were passionate when trying to convince the other guys of prejudices against men. .the other men started to agree. It was stuff about divorce settlements and custody rights. Sure these are the hot topics to win people over because you can always come up with examples where men appeared to be the losers against the evil woman who did nothing but eat bonbons and make dastardly plans against the man who was oblivious that there were problems. My experience for some years now is that pendulum is swinging more in favour of men. They didn't want to hear any of that.

I have brothers and a son and want them to have equsl rights. Why would I, as a woman, conspire against them?

Don't worry your pretty little heads about it boys. We're not outta get you

If the people you're hanging out with have these beliefs, you're hanging out with the wrong people. I mean seriously, a male (I won't refer to him as a 'man') who rolls his his eyes when a woman SPEAKS sounds like a fucking cunt to me. And I know that's harsh language on your side of the world, but so be it. Anyone who rolls his eyes at a natural born human being speaking is fucked in the head. I would actually leave if any men I was socialising with made such a reference. I just know that I like to exist, I like to live, I like to work and I know that my household contribution financially is essential to our way of life. Even if I didn't work and I was raising children I would know that my contribution to the household meant that I HAVE A RIGHT TO A VOICE.

I personally am not acquainted with any men who have expressed these opinions. In fact, the men I have the closest relationships with have quite the opposite view. They respect women, appreciate the contribution they make to the economy and to the household. Personally, I think it's a responsibility of men to acknowledge the contribution that women make to this world and to their femininity and it's a responsibility of women to acknowledge the contribution that men make to this world and to their masculinity. I guess for the men you refer to the latter is not happening. But considering the fact that the world was for centuries (possibly millennia if we really want to get technical) geared to the favour of men I think women can be given a reprieve of judgment for just a little while.

[Len Cnut]

The thing about social attitudes is that reality and what you read about in broadsheets are two different things, especially in the suburbs, who are always about a decade behind in anything.

[Redhead74]

The femenists I know (allegedly) refuse to give head because they think it empowers men. Fuck them...

Then they're not very good at giving head.

Quite the opposite is actually true......if only they cared enough [perhaps about their male lovers] to find out.

[Redhead74]

No, just tired of you blaming us for you're supposed lack of independence yet expecting us to fucking buy everything.

I buy everything I want with my own fucking money and my other half learnt long ago that if he wants to raise his eyebrows at yet another pairs of shoes arriving in the mail then he can happily take on the payment of the gas, the electricity, the communications, the rates, the fuel, the groceries, the Christmas presents, the birthday presents, the insurance policies, the vet bills, the home maintenance bills.......singlehandedly.

[Redhead74]

If I understand this right, men are upset because women have had it too good and as a result men have been emasculated. They want their rights back and women should return to "their place" as nature dictates. This is primarily cooking and cleaning and having babies. Feminism is the cancer that goes against nature.

If this is true, then they should also be happy to accept the current ratio of household debt as 100% their own. This graph shows the increasing rate of debt in relation to income. Increasing property rates are largely responsible......but hey, if they want to take that on entirely themselves in exchange for women shutting their traps and cooking, cleaning and popping out offspring......let's see how they cope with that.

http://www.afr.com/p/business/property/house_prices_flash_red_record_debt_MPI3fve6eztNMyT62R4P1J

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[magisme]

If I understand this right, men are upset because women have had it too good and as a result men have been emasculated. They want their rights back and women should return to "their place" as nature dictates. This is primarily cooking and cleaning and having babies. Feminism is the cancer that goes against nature.

If this is true, then they should also be happy to accept the current ratio of household debt as 100% their own. This graph shows the increasing rate of debt in relation to income. Increasing property rates are largely responsible......but hey, if they want to take that on entirely themselves in exchange for women shutting their traps and cooking, cleaning and popping out offspring......let's see how they cope with that.

http://www.afr.com/p/business/property/house_prices_flash_red_record_debt_MPI3fve6eztNMyT62R4P1J

This is the correlation I was talking about earlier. Many men (and women) are squeezed financially in ways this country (US) hasn't seen for a very long time. The development of that squeeze correlates with the rise and becoming mainstream of the women's movement, so many men focus their ire on that movement as a cause. There are real issues at play here. To just sweep them under the rug by saying it's cranky men who wish to reestablish their gender dominance is easily as simplistic as men saying that we need to reestablish traditional gender roles to fix everything.

[Dazey]

The femenists I know (allegedly) refuse to give head because they think it empowers men. Fuck them...

Then they're not very good at giving head.

Quite the opposite is actually true......if only they cared enough [perhaps about their male lovers] to find out.

Am I going out on a limb here in thinking that the only cock they've seen is a big purple one that takes batteries? Either that or their other half just has a massive clitoris from all the steroid use.

[GUNSNROSES513]

Up until 40 years ago, men had their place, and women had theirs....it worked for thousands of years... Why change now?

My sister is pregnant. She's complaining that her work is only giving her 10 days of maternity leave. She's lucky to get anything if you ask me, she has job and her employer depends on her to produce, not reproduce.