Moderation Discussion

[downzy]

Again, if you want to discuss our rules, guidelines, and moderation policies, there is a thread for that purpose. Or better yet, please send myself or a fellow mod/admin a PM where we can discuss your concerns.

Or better yet, you can get with your moderator I was in pm with that said he would rather take the discussion to that topic so people don't think he's being shady.

Little EMO Annie is a fake account made in 05 that was rarely posted on until now. Ironically, every topic she gets into leaves people either thinking the same thing or that she's ill. As HORRIBLE and SHOCKING as that point is, I hope that no one is traumatized by expressing.

That's fine. And you're welcome to that opinion. But as far as we're concerned, having looked into the account, we don't see evidence that it is a fake account. It is entirely possible that we're wrong, but all evidence points to the contrary. I have accounts at several other GNR forums that I haven't use to post in years. It's possible others started an account here a long time ago but posted elsewhere for the time being.

As for thinking this person is ill, well, that may or may not be. Let's not forget that fan forums, particularly those populated by hardcore fans, lend themselves to people who are, for a lack of a better description, socially challenged. But let's also not forget that it can be an arbitrary proposition. I'm sure there are several members who consider me mentally ill for my political positions

The only thing we ask is that you attack the point, not the person. If there are members who you just can't tolerate, put them on your ignore list.

the meaning of this post: "get on board or fuck off"

Certainly 80% of the regular userbase choose the latter lately...

Aren't you think about their perspective or the "why"'s behind it?

Anyway, good luck with the remaining spam... ahem userbase

Actually, forum traffic has only dipped 10 percent in the last month. It ebbs and flows all the time, mostly as a result of band activity or inactivity. Current site traffic is similar to what we experienced throughout most of this year, prior to the report that Slash and Axl had reconciled.

You can speak hyperbolically if you wish to make yourself feel better, but the truth of the matter is the 90 percent of the forum's members agree with the rules. As I said, there are other places on the web to act like a dick and be in good standing with the owner operators. This isn't one of them.

[Rustycage]

Suspecting a poster on mygnrforum of being a spammer or fake account =/= being a dick.

What kind of pillow world do people live in these days?

[downzy]

Suspecting a poster on mygnrforum of being a spammer or fake account =/= being a dick.

What kind of pillow world do people live in these days?

It's fine to suspect these things. That's what the mod/admin team does most of the time.

However, once we've confirmed that an account is not a fake, we expect other members to respect our findings. We're very serious about alt accounts so we certainly wouldn't defend a user who was using one were that to be the case.

[Rustycage]

I'm sorry. I think of you as mods, not authority. I don't base my opinions on what you think.

All it takes to throw off a mod is a proxy or vpn and quite a few regulars here have done it on the norm and mods were clueless.

[downzy]

I'm sorry. I think of you as mods, not authority. I don't base my opinions on what you think.

All it takes to throw off a mod is a proxy or vpn and quite a few regulars here have done it on the norm and mods were clueless.

You're right. It's not an exact science and there's means to get around it. But eventually alt accounts slip up and we usually catch them.

You don't have to agree with our assessment, but you have to respect it (by not continuing to accuse it of being an account). If you're so bothered by this account please add it to your ignore list.

[Rustycage]

Not bothered by it but when she posts bullshit aimed to stir the pot, I'll call it out. We're all adults here. We don't need umbrellas from some pretty basic criticism. You've been putting up some pretty hilarious boundaries here(fuck off = insult, calling someone a fake account = insult/accusation). The consistency is questionable, too. What "90%" of users think about the rules is up in the air. You're turning this place soft. Of course there need to be rules but you guys are shifting all over the place with them.

Maybe you like it soft but quite a few longtime users that have been here before you and will be here after you(regardless of the bans) aren't that soft. You won't change the nature of the internet, the forum or people's attitudes.

[Rustycage]

Look at Anything Goes. It's pretty relaxed most of the time(except for the favoritism that gone on there). Then look at the main section. It's a haven for tight asses hoping not to upset the GNR herd. You even bent the rules for a person affiliated with GNR when they came here to incite users into warnings and suspensions. How did that light discussion go? They shot the shit about nothing for a couple of days and poof. Doing this hoping for some kind of a reconciliation with the fans was bullshit since they aren't even that involved with their own fan club.

[downzy]

Not bothered by it but when she posts bullshit aimed to stir the pot, I'll call it out. We're all adults here. We don't need umbrellas from some pretty basic criticism. You've been putting up some pretty hilarious boundaries here(fuck off = insult, calling someone a fake account = insult/accusation). The consistency is questionable, too. What "90%" of users think about the rules is up in the air. You're turning this place soft. Of course there need to be rules but you guys are shifting all over the place with them.

Maybe you like it soft but quite a few longtime users that have been here before you and will be here after you(regardless of the bans) aren't that soft. You won't change the nature of the internet, the forum or people's attitudes.

Feel free to call bullshit on what she or anyone else says if you disagree with it, just avoid attacking her as a member or as a person. I would assume you can decipher the difference between the two.

What's happening is that we're now applying the rules consistently. It use to be back in the day that certain members received the benefit of the doubt or mods would look the other way. What resulted was more work for the mod team as those who didn't curry favour would act accordingly and things went to shit. That's when the workload adds up.

Understand that the obligations of the staff here are to the vast majority of posters who follow the rules. Furthermore, my responsibility is also to my staff. No one gets paid to moderate and run this forum. It's a big forum, hence it's a big job. Losing members because they can't be respectful of others is fine with me. Whether they choose to leave voluntarily or involuntarily makes no difference to me.

Let's also clear things up: the day I stop owning this forum, the forum closes. This forum was going to be shuttered back in January had I not stepped in and put hundreds of hours of work to restore its revenue stream along with my own money to keep things afloat. Any idea that I'll change course because 5-10 people bitch and complain about me and this forum elsewhere is ludicrous.

I'm not looking to change the "nature of the internet," however, not everyone thinks that the internet's sole purpose is to facilitate obnoxious behaviour. This might shock you, but many people can discuss things civilly without resorting to personal attacks or insults. We encourage a wide variety of opinions here: you'll never be censored for holding an opinion on a matter so long as you're not being abusive or insulting towards another member. That's it. There's nothing more to it. I will burn this place to the ground before I would let a few socially challenged people dictate policy around here.

Look at Anything Goes. It's pretty relaxed most of the time(except for the favoritism that gone on there). Then look at the main section. It's a haven for tight asses hoping not to upset the GNR herd. You even bent the rules for a person affiliated with GNR when they came here to incite users into warnings and suspensions. How did that light discussion go? They shot the shit about nothing for a couple of days and poof. Doing this hoping for some kind of a reconciliation with the fans was bullshit since they aren't even that involved with their own fan club.

A) Fernando wasn't here to incite users into warnings and suspensions.

B) GNR's business is their business. The business of this forum is mine and my fellow staff.

Again, Rusty, you can complain all you want, but you're not changing the minds of myself or my staff. If you don't like it here, stop posting here. No one forces to you be here. There are other places to discuss GNR matters if you hate it here. And don't worry about us, we'll be fine.

[Rustycage]

If it closes, so be it. Another will pop up. You aren't a martyr, bro.

[downzy]

If it closes, so be it. Another will pop up. You aren't a martyr, bro.

You're probably right. What's to stop that from happening right now? Moreover, there are already two or three other (relatively) active GNR forums, people are free to post there if they hate it here so much.

We have a hands-off approach to moderating when it comes to people's opinions. On the flip side, we're very hands-on when it comes to insults and abusive language. I'm not sure why that's such a huge problem for yourself and a few others.

[Rustycage]

Moderating someone's accusations of very common activity in forums(especially this one) is weak. It wouldn't surprise me if it comes back to me calling out this same stuff back when Fernando came around. You were even shown the hypocrisy then.

You have the forum. Great for you. That at doesn't eliminate the possibility of you being wrong. What you did was takeover a board that has a decent base and then tried to turn into hello kitty club or some shit where everyone is "nice" to each other and thanks each other for their opposing view over a cup of tea. Tell someone to fuck off or call them a spoof and it's time for spankings!

When/if the day comes that the users have no choice but to go elsewhere due to the board closing, new boards will pop up. That's how it is in any forum or website. The same posters will be there with the same attitudes. Warning points and suspensions won't change the direction of internet discussions and fans of a gritty rock band.

Telling people to leave if they don't like it is not something new to admins and moderators but for there to be a topic for criticizing your actions, why pull that card? If you don't want criticism, don't ask for it. OR, you could stop allowing some bullshit moderation to go on. But then you'd have to put a leash on your crew and feel bad.

Rules are needed but once it started to shift to "Nothing sexual" or "nothing to do with drug use" that was the start of the end that would probably be best. A forum dedicated to a band that was entirely sexual while they were passing out or puking on stage due to their drug use. Really? I understand you and prior owners did so to kiss Goggle's ass for some revenue but now you're going to the level of trying to change the nature of the board. Nature versus nurture.... Nature always wins.

You may have some users that kiss your ass and defend it because they are rather soft and prefer no fuss but they don't speak for everyone. At the same time, neither do I. You have a mixture of personalities and opinions and clashes are destined to happen. Thus, rules are needed. What isn't needed is a board for children that can't handle "accusations" that go no further than this board. What else isn't needed is an atmosphere where those rules are twisted to punish users for general shit. That's just cowardly.

[downzy]

Moderating someone's accusations of very common activity in forums(especially this one) is weak. It wouldn't surprise me if it comes back to me calling out this same stuff back when Fernando came around. You were even shown the hypocrisy then.

You have the forum. Great for you. That at doesn't eliminate the possibility of you being wrong. What you did was takeover a board that has a decent base and then tried to turn into hello kitty club or some shit where everyone is "nice" to each other and thanks each other for their opposing view over a cup of tea. Tell someone to fuck off or call them a spoof and it's time for spankings!

When/if the day comes that the users have no choice but to go elsewhere due to the board closing, new boards will pop up. That's how it is in any forum or website. The same posters will be there with the same attitudes. Warning points and suspensions won't change the direction of internet discussions and fans of a gritty rock band.

Telling people to leave if they don't like it is not something new to admins and moderators but for there to be a topic for criticizing your actions, why pull that card? If you don't want criticism, don't ask for it. OR, you could stop allowing some bullshit moderation to go on. But then you'd have to put a leash on your crew and feel bad.

Rules are needed but once it started to shift to "Nothing sexual" or "nothing to do with drug use" that was the start of the end that would probably be best. A forum dedicated to a band that was entirely sexual while they were passing out or puking on stage due to their drug use. Really? I understand you and prior owners did so to kiss Goggle's ass for some revenue but now you're going to the level of trying to change the nature of the board. Nature versus nurture.... Nature always wins.

You may have some users that kiss your ass and defend it because they are rather soft and prefer no fuss but they don't speak for everyone. At the same time, neither do I. You have a mixture of personalities and opinions and clashes are destined to happen. Thus, rules are needed. What isn't needed is a board for children that can't handle "accusations" that go no further than this board. What else isn't needed is an atmosphere where those rules are twisted to punish users for general shit. That's just cowardly.

Perhaps you misread the title of this thread, but it doesn't say "Tell us what you think and we'll act on it." This thread is meant to allow members to discuss the moderation of this forum if they have questions or concerns. We do our best to explain our actions as clearly as we can. If you still don't agree after our explanation, that's fine. But someone like yourself who doesn't like the explanation can always find somewhere else to post. Nobody is pointing a gun to your head.

I'm not under the assumption that all actions by the staff and I will be agreed and accepted by the entire user base. The point of this thread, for those curious, is to ask for further explanation. You have been given explanation numerous times. Whether you choose to accept or disagree isn't my concern.

As I said, the band's business is their own. How this forum, regardless of its primary subject matter, functions is that of the staff and myself. The nature of the band is great to talk about, but it doesn't excuse bad behaviour of people who want to post here. By your logic, because Axl tells people to fuck off you should be allowed to do the same. I don't agree.

And let's be clear: you put zero work or time into the upkeep of this place. Hence you'll excuse me if I prioritize the consideration of the staff who actually do put time into this place than your own priorities. The rules, and the enforcement of the rules, are there to protect the members who comply with them and the staff who puts their time and effort into enforcing them. The result of the policies changes has resulted in a dramatic drop in work for my fellow mods and admins with a minimal or nonexistent drop in forum traffic. By that metric, we'll continue the policies in place.

So with that, you're welcome to continue this conversation but as far as I'm concerned I've explained as best I can why the forum operates as it does. Again, if you don't like it, find a forum that serves your tastes. Then again, considering that you've previously announced that you'd never post here again only to return time and time again, I doubt that's going to happen.

[Rustycage]

Just keep doing your thing, bud. Clearly the base is growing and people are satisfied. Maybe we can all sing and dance together one day.

Never announced I would never post here again. I left because the discussions were boring and nothing was going on with the band. I came back after hearing of the BBF drama.

Each owner that takes over this place seems to think they have some magical forum that people can't resist. Has it ever occurred to you that people come here because there really isn't another active board dedicated to this band? Quit flattering yourselves.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Rustycage

[Apollo]

Russ would be a great owner and do great things with the forum (as opposed to letting it crash and burn if something happened).

Even when he has scolded me, the guy does it respectfully and with tact. And not with a string of F words and saying that If you don't like the forum then leave.

Downzy if you ever give up the forum or want to take a back seat, chill with Fernando, and let somebody else be in charge of the moderation - Russ is the man for the job.

[Rustycage]

Russ would be a great owner and do great things with the forum (as opposed to letting it crash and burn if something happened).

Even when he has scolded me, the guy does it respectfully and with tact. And not with a string of F words and saying that If you don't like the forum then leave.

Downzy if you ever give up the forum or want to take a back seat, chill with Fernando, and let somebody else be in charge of the moderation - Russ is the man for the job.

Yes.

He even has discussions with people and seems like a part of the fanbase. That's gotta be hard to do as an admin. He comes across as more objective. I surely don't sense any of that, "do wtf I say or gtfo" type of attitude.(except for when he throws a like on some rather questionable mod posts.)

If he is who I think he is from the old days(CBGB or something like that), he jumped this ship at one point for the same type of concerns so I think he has some wisdom on what NOT to do.

[downzy]

Russ would be a great owner and do great things with the forum (as opposed to letting it crash and burn if something happened).

Even when he has scolded me, the guy does it respectfully and with tact. And not with a string of F words and saying that If you don't like the forum then leave.

Downzy if you ever give up the forum or want to take a back seat, chill with Fernando, and let somebody else be in charge of the moderation - Russ is the man for the job.

Well, I was being a tad hyperbolic. Nothing is going to happen and the forum isn't going to crash and burn. My point was that I'd rather shut this place down then let policies be decided by a small vocal minority.

The rules, and the enforcement of the rules, are mean to help minimize the workload for people like Russ and Alfie who do the bulk of the moderating around here. Being a mod or admin of a forum this size can easily burn a person out; why do you think most of the work is done by Alfie and Russ?

And I agree that Russ would be a great owner. Why don't you ask him if he wants to buy the place and take on the responsibilities that ownership entails

[SoulMonster]

Not bothered by it but when she posts bullshit aimed to stir the pot, I'll call it out. We're all adults here. We don't need umbrellas from some pretty basic criticism. You've been putting up some pretty hilarious boundaries here(fuck off = insult, calling someone a fake account = insult/accusation). The consistency is questionable, too. What "90%" of users think about the rules is up in the air. You're turning this place soft. Of course there need to be rules but you guys are shifting all over the place with them.

Maybe you like it soft but quite a few longtime users that have been here before you and will be here after you(regardless of the bans) aren't that soft. You won't change the nature of the internet, the forum or people's attitudes.

If people think she posts bullshit to stir the pot, then they should point out such repeated trålling behaviour to the mods and let them take action. Don't instead try to bully her by repeated personal attacks and then attempt to have her banned by claiming she posts from a "fake account". I completely understand why these people don't take the "she is a tråll" route when trying to force her out -- I really do -- but it is the more fair way of dealing with her if they honestly believe she is a tråll.

I find the moderation here more consistent than ever before. Not only that, the transparency is greater than it has ever been, so not only do we know what the rules are, we know why they are.

That being said, of course there will be some inconsistencies in moderation done by humans, it is a subjective thing. But I disagree with your examples being cases of this. In fact, I think the moderation team is somehat more lenient with certain users here because they fear these kinds of backlashes.

[Little EMO Annie]

I am willing to meet anybody who lives in Chicago on this site at a neutral location. You can tell me what you think of me in person to my face. I am dong my best to comply with forum rules. And to show respect to forum members.

[Estranged Reality]

What you did was takeover a board that has a decent base and then tried to turn into hello kitty club or some shit where everyone is "nice" to each other and thanks each other for their opposing view over a cup of tea. Tell someone to fuck off or call them a spoof and it's time for spankings!

This is factually incorrect. I've been using this forum since 2003. Madison was a much harsher moderator than anyone on the staff right now, and she's the first to admit it (she even PM'd me last year to opine that she felt certain users, most of whom have flocked elsewhere by now, were being given way too much leeway and being allowed to run the forum into the ground). If you think there are side forums now for people to complain, you probably missed it about a decade ago, when "Whitedude's Palace" (Whitedude was an old poster here) was set up to exclusively trash MyGNR, madison, Eric, and others.

HV, SUBS and myself made a joint decision after he purchased the forum to allow things to be freer. We decided to allow ALL banned members to come back. That came back to bite us because people gradually took advantage of our goodwill. Certain personalities who consistently trash this place and swear they want nothing to do with it were the first to come back and begin running amok. When Downzy took over, the forum was a mess, and he made a pointed effort to clean things up. When SUBS was at the helm, he had a lot of good intentions, but he was taken advantage of by people, and I can personally vouch for the fact that we'd receive numerous reports on a daily basis. My phone would be blowing up with emails while I was at work, and it was endless reports from certain users against other users. People accused us of being too lenient, of turning the forum into a negative place, and we were labeled the GN'R "hater" forum (even the band itself perceived us this way!). And it was because a handful of strong personalities were pummeling people who posted earnestly. We tried to make compromises, we tried to meet people halfway, but the place was just a total mess, and I'm saying that as someone who saw what was going on behind the scenes. We lost a LOT of long-time members around this time... part of it was because of band inactivity and people getting older, but a lot of it had to do with the atmosphere. It was such a continual headache that it really drove me away, it caused UKSUBS enough heartache that he just wanted to rid his hands of it, and even HV was exasperated at times.

So don't tell me Downzy took over a thriving paradise and turned it into a Hello Kitty club, because it just isn't true. Downzy is stricter? That's just in relative terms. The forum needed more balance and that's what he brought to the table. I can, again, personally vouch that he has no ulterior motives, he isn't trying to win party passes from GN'R (as someone insinuated somewhere), he just wants the place to be somewhere people feel comfortable posting and don't have to worry about dominant personalities driving away earnest discussion. That's not pointed at any one person in particular, and speaking truthfully I do miss many of the people who have left over the years, even if I didn't always agree with them or if they were headaches at times.

[alfierose]

Great post ER

[gunsguy]

I have been here for 10+ years on and off the staff portion of the forum.

I don't get into alot of the drama anymore but I will say this and I mean it.

The team we have now for me is the best bunch we have EVER had here. You could say I am just saying that but I am not. The reality is so far with this team it has been open and respectful of each other, open to ALL staff ideas and such (THIS for me has NEVER happened before on this level).

The forum goes up and down over time, the notion that any one mod or admin is doing anything but the best they can is ridiculous.

In a forum as big as this you will have some who want to push the envelope of course, to be expected. I think the staff have been more than fair with anyone here. In fact as you can clearly see in this thread the vast majority of users are not involved and complaining here.

I would say that as a user and as a member of the staff here that mygnrforum is doing just fine and the staff is truly the best I have seen here. ( The ones you do see everyday as well)

These guys listen and are always looking to make this place the best it can be. Just like real life they can't please them all....

[SoulMonster]

I will also add this: In any history of GN'R - regardless of band activity and band popularity - the current moderation team would offer the best arena for discussions of the band. You cannot look at dwindling activity here and blame it on the admins/mods when this is more likely due to the general GN'R situation, that would be a mental deadend.

[CheapJon]

Annie is a real person.

[DR DOOM]

Some people take this shit way too fucking seriously.

It's Downzy's forum, he pays for it...yeah it's a two way street between the people that post and the admin/mods but at the end of the day Downzy is the owner and he can do with the forum as he sees fit.

As per usual, the cries for "freedom of speech" etc means "we want to post porn, talk filth and clog the place up with flaming" - see just about every other "GNR" forum for that.

This place is WAY better without all the attention seeking nutjobs, yeah some mistakes have been made (and graciously admitted to) in regards to moderation but I honestly believe this place is better off without all that shit.

[alfierose]

For the rest of you....Surprise stuff comin'!!