Axl: Old Guns' asset or liability?

[Dr. Who]

Was Axl, by 1991, more of a liability to Guns than an asset?

On one hand, whether you like the song and video and what they represent or not, NR did send GN'R soaring to a whole new level of popularity. You have Axl's larger than life personality which even as late as 2006 drew the mainstream in. Axl is and has always been one of those people who even during their lifetimes seem more than your average person; they have a mystique, an aura - like Jim Morrison. Axl's personality is a big part of why Guns became big in the first place - You could argue his charisma is, in part, what set Guns apart from Motley Crue or Great White - He was a lot more interesting as a person than Vince Neil or Jack Russell, and a lot more talented lyrically. He was also a lot more 'real' in his lyricism than either - this was a guy speaking from genuine experience and with genuine issues; a genuine 'badass' who had really done time in jail and didn't just talk the talk. Because of him we have songs like Estranged, November Rain and Breakdown. It's because of him that Welcome to the Jungle has the catchy lyrics it has.

On the other hand...You have from 1991 to 1994 the needless mega late starts, sometimes with the show starting 2-3 hours after the opening act had left, leaving the fans waiting in total 4, 5 hours just to see the band. The riots. The rants. The childish tracks like Shotgun Blues and Get in the Ring and Back Off Bitch. The really fucking stupid stage outfits that make almost every UYI show terribly cheesy to watch. The bizarre vocal overdubs and weird sound effects all over the UYIs (IE the bubble sounds on Garden of Eden, all his corny vocal overdubs). Dizzy Reed. The Vegas style back-up band in 1992. The wife-beating allegations.

Stopping shows in the middle of a song to call out a fan, even if the fan was in the wrong. Stopping songs right in the middle and threatening to leave, killing the momentum of the show and probably any fun the band was having, and probably making the audience nervous. The 'Trilogy' - mainly the Estranged video as the worst offender. The self-absorbed, Hollywood, prima donna horseshit - affecting a Martyr/Jesus look (with the beard in 1992), the self-indulgent photo shoots while refusing to take group shots with the band after 1991, the horrid and cringeworthy short shorts, chest protector and other very bizarre clothes he wore on stage, performing with Elton John and a 120 piece orchestra while Nirvana ripped up the stage with Lithium, the past-lives regression therapy nonsense that he began promoting to the media in 1992....

I mean, this image right here, automatically dated GN'R forever and made them look like:

Taking it back a little further, Axl's inclusion of the N word and slurs at gays and immigrants, made GN'R forever appear like the band of the KKK and of dumb jocks. That alone made Guns as a whole ripe for crucifixion as cultural dinosaurs - as nothing more than relics of the long ago '70s rather than a band for now (the 1990s) by the likes of Cobain etc. Axl provided the media and his enemies with plenty of ammunition for the assassination of both his character, his reputation, and the reputation of Guns N' Roses as a whole, which by association tarred (at the time - the '90s) the other band members.

All of these factors served to make GN'R as a whole - and not simply Axl himself - seem dated well before what should've been their expiration date. The 1990s should have been their prime, their peak - and in some ways, '91-93 was their peak. But by 1993, due to all the stuff I outlined above, Guns, even if they were still very much popular, were greatly disliked and viewed as something of a cool joke. Banal. Vulgar, and not in a fun way - lewd. A turn off. The Steven Seagal of Hard Rock. Old fashioned, retro, and more like a parody of a rock band than a group to be taken seriously. A real life Spinal Tap. You had Axl become self-important and pompous - look at his grandiose press releases about Look at your Game Girl, in '94 and OMG in '99.

Axl's pomposity, and his divisive nature, is what made GN'R a popular target of the Grunge acts. Kurt Cobain never really attacked GN'R as a whole - He attacked Axl using the name "GN'R" IE "GN'R are a band of sexist, racist jerks", as Axl in the public eye represented GN'R. Axl is what made bands like Soundgarden and Metallica, who might've gotten along with the rest of Guns, despise GN'R. Axl is the one who caused the band to barely break even on the massively popular UYI tour because of his indulgent theme parties.

If you read Duff's book, while an addict ultimately has no one else to blame for their addiction but themselves, Duff makes it clear that the band drank/drugged in excess to cope with the long waits and the fear of rioting and a repeat of St. Louis or worse. "Axl's late? Let's have another vodka/snort of coke." Axl made everything that was supposed to be fun be more of a dread for the band. Axl, at least from Duff's POV, had this habit of turning every grand victory or what should've been a huge moment, into either a neutral sort of meh or a defeat. Izzy stopped wanting to deal with Guns day to day after Chicago - and Chicago was Axl's whole idea, and then he didn't even bother to show up for a month. Axl broke the band's sense of togetherness/gang mentality permanently when he called them out publicly for drugs.

While it can be argued that the public probably wouldn't have been nearly as interested in GN'R if it weren't for Axl - he was the unpredictable element that made GN'R a dangerous, rebellious, explosive element - "The Most Dangerous Band in the World", it can also be argued that if Axl had been fired in say...1991? 1990? The band might've come out of the 1990s both together and with a much better reputation.

I mean, Axl says Slash was the one holding GN'R back from musically progressing. That Slash didn't want to do the 'hard work' of moving GN'R forward or even pushing himself or challenging himself musically as a guitarist. And yet Slash is the guy who from all accounts brought Coma in as a mostly complete vehicle - a ten minute long progressive metal song with multiple changes. Slash is the guy who is largely responsible for Locomotive, another progressive rock number with a funk groove - something quite unique. Slash, Duff and Izzy, without Axl being around, worked out Locomotive, Bad Apples, Civil War, Pretty Tied Up, Don't Damn Me, Dust N' Bones and The Garden musically around 1989.

It can be argued that it was Axl's mental issues along with his perfectionism and also intermittent writer's block that kept the UYIs from being released in 1989, or 1990. That the band without him might not have released two albums, which has left the legacy of the albums in doubt due to the amount of filler equaling the number of great tracks.

The UYI songs, if we take them as instrumentals, if they were mixed rawer, would've been utterly contemporary in 1991, cutting edge. Not Nirvana, but utterly fitting with what was huge in the early/mid 90s. Pretty Tied Up and Locomotive musically sound like something Pearl Jam would've put out on Ten or Soundgarden. It's Axl's lyrics that turn them into either childish misogynistic pieces or self-indulgent head trips. It's Axl's vocal effects and overdubs and the addition of Dizzy Reed that rip from the songs that raw power they could've had. It's the mixing - which I no doubt Axl oversaw or had a heavy hand in - which leaves the actual recordings of the UYI recordings sounding polished, sterile, with Matt's drums mixed so flat, lacking in power or spirit, and Duff's bass given that dated early 90s slap sound.

So, my question to you is, might GN'R have been better off without Axl after the UYIs?

Axl said openly Slash should've left after Lies. But maybe it should be the other way around - But then again, maybe without Axl, the band would've faded rapidly into obscurity and irrelevance as The Doors did without Jim Morrison, and maybe it was Axl's antics and volatile nature and vision that kept them unique in 1991 - After all, it cannot be denied that November Rain, Axl's vision captured in a single song, gave GN'R a second wind - chart wise and cultural relevance wise, it's their biggest hit only after SCOM - no other song of theirs was as big a hit as those two, and their creation was led by Axl - NR being his direct product, and SCOM being his seeing something potentially big where Slash saw just a worthless, stupid circus sounding guitar riff.

It can be argued, too, that left to their own devices, the band might NOT have pushed themselves to create stuff like Locomotive to "please" Axl or meet his expectations for the next album, and that Slash, Duff etc might have instead been content to create an AFD II - pleasing to the fans, but making GN'R no different than Crue in the long run. I have no doubt that Slash, Duff circa 1991 would've had no problem with pumping out an album of Paradise City style tracks.

So, my question to you is,

What about Axl? Was he more a hindrance to Guns N' Roses after say, 1988, or a help? Should he have been sacked - or would the band have died (figuratively and possibly literally) without him? What should we think of Axl?

Might GN'R have appeared much less of a joke without his presence in the 1990s?

Might the UYIs have been better albums without Axl's lyrics in some places, and without his effects?

[Słash]

The thing is that to make Guns N' Roses you need all 5 of them. Things worked with Matt, but it wasn't the same. Now days the name has become a Joke.

[maynard]

yes

[Słash]

ZoSo needs to reply to this

[Rdeyahlxp]

Remember, they all made equally moronic decisions during that time, and at least Axl wasn't on smack. As much as current Gn'R is a mess and the negative atmosphere on the forums surrounding everything Axl as of lately, I disagree. Love or hate the man, Axl embodies or used to embody most of what "Guns N' Roses" is about. His vision was ultimately the best for Gn'R as a musical entity. He just utterly failed in making Gn'R succeed without the original guys and isn't talented enough in doing it on his own. I just think he isn't that interested in doing anything in regards to pushing the band forward these days.

[Len Cnut]

I can't be fuckin' bothered reading all that but i can answer the question posed by first sentence, no he wasn't, he was the lead singer of GnR and it could not and would not exist without him. Without Axl Rose the whole thing weren't worth a wank. And thats always, forever, whatever fuckin' year it is.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Len B'stard

[magisme]

Are raisins a liability to Raisin Bran?

[Dr. Who]

Are raisins a liability to Raisin Bran?

I don't know, do raisins:

-Come mega late to shows making the fans wait 4-5 hours, which encourages the bran to drink and drug it up to cope with the stress?

-Throw tantrums and go into 10 minute long rants on-stage

-Wear horrible outfits which make the band as a whole look lame

-Add unwanted members to the bran which dilute the sound of the bran, without consulting the bran

-Cancel shows based on the word of their psychic adviser

-Make the bran look it's the food of racists and bigots by including horrible, racist and homophobic sentiments on the box without consulting the bran

-Add bizarre unnecessary ingredients on top of the raisin bran which dilute and overpower the taste

-Take the brand name "Raisin Bran" for themselves, forcing the Bran to give them the name under duress

-Quit the bran, and then form a new bran which the other original bran members are allowed join as employees

-Does the Raisin make stupid juvenile songs like Shotgun Blues and Get in the Ring?

-Not rehearse with the bran

-Swim with dolphins in bizarre Raisin Bran commercials?

[ZoSoRose]

ZoSo needs to reply to this

[magisme]

Are raisins a liability to Raisin Bran?

I don't know, do raisins:

-Come mega late to shows making the fans wait 4-5 hours, which encourages the bran to drink and drug it up to cope with the stress?

-Throw tantrums and go into 10 minute long rants on-stage

-Wear horrible outfits which make the band as a whole look lame

-Add unwanted members to the bran which dilute the sound of the bran, without consulting the bran

-Cancel shows based on the word of their psychic adviser

-Make the bran look it's the food of racists and bigots by including horrible, racist and homophobic sentiments on the box without consulting the bran

-Add bizarre unnecessary ingredients on top of the raisin bran which dilute and overpower the taste

-Take the brand name "Raisin Bran" for themselves, forcing the Bran to give them the name under duress

-Quit the bran, and then form a new bran which the other original bran members are allowed join as employees

-Does the Raisin make stupid juvenile songs like Shotgun Blues and Get in the Ring?

-Not rehearse with the bran

-Swim with dolphins in bizarre Raisin Bran commercials?

You missed the point. If you take out the raisins, it's no longer Raisin Bran, it's just bran. You can't take out one of the main ingredients of something and still claim it's the same thing. See NuGNR.

So what are you asking? If the other guys would have been better off ditching Axl and forming a new band? No. We kind of saw that with Velvet Revolver. Some people like it, I think it's boring, but what's undeniable is that it's not as good as GNR.

[Apollo]

The thing is that to make Guns N' Roses you need all 5 of them.

Topic over.

Axl's voice and musical talent is what made GnR the biggest rock band on the planet.

Axl's attitude and non-music behavior destroyed what was the greatest rock band on the planet.

[Dr. Who]

Are raisins a liability to Raisin Bran?

I don't know, do raisins:

-Come mega late to shows making the fans wait 4-5 hours, which encourages the bran to drink and drug it up to cope with the stress?

-Throw tantrums and go into 10 minute long rants on-stage

-Wear horrible outfits which make the band as a whole look lame

-Add unwanted members to the bran which dilute the sound of the bran, without consulting the bran

-Cancel shows based on the word of their psychic adviser

-Make the bran look it's the food of racists and bigots by including horrible, racist and homophobic sentiments on the box without consulting the bran

-Add bizarre unnecessary ingredients on top of the raisin bran which dilute and overpower the taste

-Take the brand name "Raisin Bran" for themselves, forcing the Bran to give them the name under duress

-Quit the bran, and then form a new bran which the other original bran members are allowed join as employees

-Does the Raisin make stupid juvenile songs like Shotgun Blues and Get in the Ring?

-Not rehearse with the bran

-Swim with dolphins in bizarre Raisin Bran commercials?

You missed the point. If you take out the raisins, it's no longer Raisin Bran, it's just bran. You can't take out one of the main ingredients of something and still claim it's the same thing. See NuGNR.

So what are you asking? If the other guys would have been better off ditching Axl and forming a new band? No. We kind of saw that with Velvet Revolver. Some people like it, I think it's boring, but what's undeniable is that it's not as good as GNR.

So when the Stones dumped Brian Jones for being a bipolar twit, they weren't the Stones anymore?

When AC/DC lost Bon Scott and carried on, they were no longer AC/DC?

I'm asking if by 1991, Axl was more of a liability to the band than an asset.

The band (without Axl even being present) had written and recorded instrumental form Civil War Locomotive, Don't Damn Me, Garden of Eden, Dust N' Bones and had already written Don't Cry, Coma and YCBM. You're telling me they couldn't have found a less mental singer to have added lyrics to those songs?

VR was a different story. It wasn't Slash, Izzy, and Duff. It was Slash, Duff and Matt. You weren't just missing Axl from the equation, you were missing Izzy who provided 90% of the songwriting and basis for riffs. In 1991, Izzy was still in the band and had they canned Axl probably would've stayed.

Without Axl in tow in 1991, you certainly wouldn't have had 3, 4 late starts or St. Louis or Montreal. Slash, Izzy, Duff and Matt could've continued on without him. You wouldn't have had the big Vegas band in 1992 or the Estranged video if Axl had been sacked.

[arnold layne]

Axl: Old Guns' asset or liability?

A novel by Miser.

[Dr. Who]

The thing is that to make Guns N' Roses you need all 5 of them.

Topic over.

Axl's voice and musical talent is what made GnR the biggest rock band on the planet.

Axl's attitude and non-music behavior destroyed what was the greatest rock band on the planet.

Axl's voice is divisive as is his personality, and he certainly didn't write any riffs or solos. His biggest musical contributions (and I mean LITERAL musical as in instrumental) to the old band were November Rain, Breakdown and Dead Horse.

[Apollo]

The thing is that to make Guns N' Roses you need all 5 of them.

Topic over.

Axl's voice and musical talent is what made GnR the biggest rock band on the planet.

Axl's attitude and non-music behavior destroyed what was the greatest rock band on the planet.

Axl's voice is divisive as is his personality, and he certainly didn't write any riffs or solos. His biggest musical contributions (and I mean LITERAL musical as in instrumental) to the old band were November Rain, Breakdown and Dead Horse.

Can we start a Kick-Starter campaign to raise money for Miser to leave our forum and become a member at a certain wrestler's GnR forum?

[magisme]

Are raisins a liability to Raisin Bran?

I don't know, do raisins:

-Come mega late to shows making the fans wait 4-5 hours, which encourages the bran to drink and drug it up to cope with the stress?

-Throw tantrums and go into 10 minute long rants on-stage

-Wear horrible outfits which make the band as a whole look lame

-Add unwanted members to the bran which dilute the sound of the bran, without consulting the bran

-Cancel shows based on the word of their psychic adviser

-Make the bran look it's the food of racists and bigots by including horrible, racist and homophobic sentiments on the box without consulting the bran

-Add bizarre unnecessary ingredients on top of the raisin bran which dilute and overpower the taste

-Take the brand name "Raisin Bran" for themselves, forcing the Bran to give them the name under duress

-Quit the bran, and then form a new bran which the other original bran members are allowed join as employees

-Does the Raisin make stupid juvenile songs like Shotgun Blues and Get in the Ring?

-Not rehearse with the bran

-Swim with dolphins in bizarre Raisin Bran commercials?

You missed the point. If you take out the raisins, it's no longer Raisin Bran, it's just bran. You can't take out one of the main ingredients of something and still claim it's the same thing. See NuGNR.

So what are you asking? If the other guys would have been better off ditching Axl and forming a new band? No. We kind of saw that with Velvet Revolver. Some people like it, I think it's boring, but what's undeniable is that it's not as good as GNR.

So when the Stones dumped Brian Jones for being a bipolar twit, they weren't the Stones anymore?

When AC/DC lost Bon Scott and carried on, they were no longer AC/DC?

I'm asking if by 1991, Axl was more of a liability to the band than an asset.

The band (without Axl even being present) had written and recorded instrumental form Civil War Locomotive, Don't Damn Me, Garden of Eden, Dust N' Bones and had already written Don't Cry, Coma and YCBM. You're telling me they couldn't have found a less mental singer to have added lyrics to those songs?

VR was a different story. It wasn't Slash, Izzy, and Duff. It was Slash, Duff and Matt. You weren't just missing Axl from the equation, you were missing Izzy who provided 90% of the songwriting and basis for riffs. In 1991, Izzy was still in the band and had they canned Axl probably would've stayed.

Without Axl in tow in 1991, you certainly wouldn't have had 3, 4 late starts or St. Louis or Montreal. Slash, Izzy, Duff and Matt could've continued on without him. You wouldn't have had the big Vegas band in 1992 or the Estranged video if Axl had been sacked.

You're a joke. Straight up. So the new persona this week is Axl was a liability and they should have dumped him? You're clearly trolling so I'm not even going to bother.

Things are so much better without Miser threads.

[Len Cnut]

Are raisins a liability to Raisin Bran?

I don't know, do raisins:

-Come mega late to shows making the fans wait 4-5 hours, which encourages the bran to drink and drug it up to cope with the stress?

-Throw tantrums and go into 10 minute long rants on-stage

-Wear horrible outfits which make the band as a whole look lame

-Add unwanted members to the bran which dilute the sound of the bran, without consulting the bran

-Cancel shows based on the word of their psychic adviser

-Make the bran look it's the food of racists and bigots by including horrible, racist and homophobic sentiments on the box without consulting the bran

-Add bizarre unnecessary ingredients on top of the raisin bran which dilute and overpower the taste

-Take the brand name "Raisin Bran" for themselves, forcing the Bran to give them the name under duress

-Quit the bran, and then form a new bran which the other original bran members are allowed join as employees

-Does the Raisin make stupid juvenile songs like Shotgun Blues and Get in the Ring?

-Not rehearse with the bran

-Swim with dolphins in bizarre Raisin Bran commercials?

You missed the point. If you take out the raisins, it's no longer Raisin Bran, it's just bran. You can't take out one of the main ingredients of something and still claim it's the same thing. See NuGNR.

So what are you asking? If the other guys would have been better off ditching Axl and forming a new band? No. We kind of saw that with Velvet Revolver. Some people like it, I think it's boring, but what's undeniable is that it's not as good as GNR.

So when the Stones dumped Brian Jones for being a bipolar twit, they weren't the Stones anymore?

I'm sure the Jones appreciate your post mortem diagnosis doctor but don't you think it might've had something to do with the guy doing so many downers his jaw was resting on his shoes do ya?

[Dr. Who]

Are raisins a liability to Raisin Bran?

I don't know, do raisins:

-Come mega late to shows making the fans wait 4-5 hours, which encourages the bran to drink and drug it up to cope with the stress?

-Throw tantrums and go into 10 minute long rants on-stage

-Wear horrible outfits which make the band as a whole look lame

-Add unwanted members to the bran which dilute the sound of the bran, without consulting the bran

-Cancel shows based on the word of their psychic adviser

-Make the bran look it's the food of racists and bigots by including horrible, racist and homophobic sentiments on the box without consulting the bran

-Add bizarre unnecessary ingredients on top of the raisin bran which dilute and overpower the taste

-Take the brand name "Raisin Bran" for themselves, forcing the Bran to give them the name under duress

-Quit the bran, and then form a new bran which the other original bran members are allowed join as employees

-Does the Raisin make stupid juvenile songs like Shotgun Blues and Get in the Ring?

-Not rehearse with the bran

-Swim with dolphins in bizarre Raisin Bran commercials?

You missed the point. If you take out the raisins, it's no longer Raisin Bran, it's just bran. You can't take out one of the main ingredients of something and still claim it's the same thing. See NuGNR.

So what are you asking? If the other guys would have been better off ditching Axl and forming a new band? No. We kind of saw that with Velvet Revolver. Some people like it, I think it's boring, but what's undeniable is that it's not as good as GNR.

So when the Stones dumped Brian Jones for being a bipolar twit, they weren't the Stones anymore?

I'm sure the Jones appreciate your post mortem diagnosis doctor but don't you think it might've had something to do with the guy doing so many downers his jaw was resting on his shoes do ya?

In Keith's book he makes it more that Brian was very hard to work with. Drugs of course played a factor in that but Keith says even going back to when they first met there was a very nasty underbelly to his personality that became more and more pronounced as time went on. He said in the book and others have said Brian was like two people in one; there was this shy, sweet introspective guy on one hand, and then this nasty, angry, unpredictable fellow on the other. Also, Brian just at times didn't show up for rehearsals or even sometimes just decided not to show up for gigs. Keith in his book talks all about this. Brian becoming non-functional was what broke the camel's back and gave them the excuse to fire him, but if you read Keith's book again he basically makes it seem like Brian had one foot out of the band long before drugs did any damage to him.

Are raisins a liability to Raisin Bran?

I don't know, do raisins:

-Come mega late to shows making the fans wait 4-5 hours, which encourages the bran to drink and drug it up to cope with the stress?

-Throw tantrums and go into 10 minute long rants on-stage

-Wear horrible outfits which make the band as a whole look lame

-Add unwanted members to the bran which dilute the sound of the bran, without consulting the bran

-Cancel shows based on the word of their psychic adviser

-Make the bran look it's the food of racists and bigots by including horrible, racist and homophobic sentiments on the box without consulting the bran

-Add bizarre unnecessary ingredients on top of the raisin bran which dilute and overpower the taste

-Take the brand name "Raisin Bran" for themselves, forcing the Bran to give them the name under duress

-Quit the bran, and then form a new bran which the other original bran members are allowed join as employees

-Does the Raisin make stupid juvenile songs like Shotgun Blues and Get in the Ring?

-Not rehearse with the bran

-Swim with dolphins in bizarre Raisin Bran commercials?

You missed the point. If you take out the raisins, it's no longer Raisin Bran, it's just bran. You can't take out one of the main ingredients of something and still claim it's the same thing. See NuGNR.

So what are you asking? If the other guys would have been better off ditching Axl and forming a new band? No. We kind of saw that with Velvet Revolver. Some people like it, I think it's boring, but what's undeniable is that it's not as good as GNR.

So when the Stones dumped Brian Jones for being a bipolar twit, they weren't the Stones anymore?

When AC/DC lost Bon Scott and carried on, they were no longer AC/DC?

I'm asking if by 1991, Axl was more of a liability to the band than an asset.

The band (without Axl even being present) had written and recorded instrumental form Civil War Locomotive, Don't Damn Me, Garden of Eden, Dust N' Bones and had already written Don't Cry, Coma and YCBM. You're telling me they couldn't have found a less mental singer to have added lyrics to those songs?

VR was a different story. It wasn't Slash, Izzy, and Duff. It was Slash, Duff and Matt. You weren't just missing Axl from the equation, you were missing Izzy who provided 90% of the songwriting and basis for riffs. In 1991, Izzy was still in the band and had they canned Axl probably would've stayed.

Without Axl in tow in 1991, you certainly wouldn't have had 3, 4 late starts or St. Louis or Montreal. Slash, Izzy, Duff and Matt could've continued on without him. You wouldn't have had the big Vegas band in 1992 or the Estranged video if Axl had been sacked.

You're a joke. Straight up. So the new persona this week is Axl was a liability and they should have dumped him? You're clearly trolling so I'm not even going to bother.

Things are so much better without Miser threads.

It's been my opinion growing the last few months, actually. Is it not possible for one's opinion to change over time? I was away from here completely for almost six months by choice, and in that time I did a lot of thinking. You seem to be very anti-Axl yourself, so to bash me for also not being a fan of Axl is odd.

[Len Cnut]

In Keith's book he makes it more that Brian was very hard to work with. Drugs of course played a factor in that but Keith says even going back to when they first met there was a very nasty underbelly to his personality that became more and more pronounced as time went on. He said in the book and others have said Brian was like two people in one; there was this shy, sweet introspective guy on one hand, and then this nasty, angry, unpredictable fellow on the other. Also, Brian just at times didn't show up for rehearsals or even sometimes just decided not to show up for gigs. Keith in his book talks all about this. Brian becoming non-functional was what broke the camel's back and gave them the excuse to fire him, but if you read Keith's book again he basically makes it seem like Brian had one foot out of the band long before drugs did any damage to him.

And that led you to your diagnosis did it Doctor? Well it's reassuring to know you put so much research into it. Don't suppose Keiths account could be ever so slightly preudiced a little do ya?

[tomfriend]

Axl was an asset and a liability. Just like everyone else from the bands heyday.

Edited July 25, 2015 by tomfriend

[Słash]

What if I had a time machine, went back in 1985 with a pic of the current Axl and showed it to the Axl back then?

[magisme]

Are raisins a liability to Raisin Bran?

I don't know, do raisins:

-Come mega late to shows making the fans wait 4-5 hours, which encourages the bran to drink and drug it up to cope with the stress?

-Throw tantrums and go into 10 minute long rants on-stage

-Wear horrible outfits which make the band as a whole look lame

-Add unwanted members to the bran which dilute the sound of the bran, without consulting the bran

-Cancel shows based on the word of their psychic adviser

-Make the bran look it's the food of racists and bigots by including horrible, racist and homophobic sentiments on the box without consulting the bran

-Add bizarre unnecessary ingredients on top of the raisin bran which dilute and overpower the taste

-Take the brand name "Raisin Bran" for themselves, forcing the Bran to give them the name under duress

-Quit the bran, and then form a new bran which the other original bran members are allowed join as employees

-Does the Raisin make stupid juvenile songs like Shotgun Blues and Get in the Ring?

-Not rehearse with the bran

-Swim with dolphins in bizarre Raisin Bran commercials?

You missed the point. If you take out the raisins, it's no longer Raisin Bran, it's just bran. You can't take out one of the main ingredients of something and still claim it's the same thing. See NuGNR.

So what are you asking? If the other guys would have been better off ditching Axl and forming a new band? No. We kind of saw that with Velvet Revolver. Some people like it, I think it's boring, but what's undeniable is that it's not as good as GNR.

So when the Stones dumped Brian Jones for being a bipolar twit, they weren't the Stones anymore?

When AC/DC lost Bon Scott and carried on, they were no longer AC/DC?

I'm asking if by 1991, Axl was more of a liability to the band than an asset.

The band (without Axl even being present) had written and recorded instrumental form Civil War Locomotive, Don't Damn Me, Garden of Eden, Dust N' Bones and had already written Don't Cry, Coma and YCBM. You're telling me they couldn't have found a less mental singer to have added lyrics to those songs?

VR was a different story. It wasn't Slash, Izzy, and Duff. It was Slash, Duff and Matt. You weren't just missing Axl from the equation, you were missing Izzy who provided 90% of the songwriting and basis for riffs. In 1991, Izzy was still in the band and had they canned Axl probably would've stayed.

Without Axl in tow in 1991, you certainly wouldn't have had 3, 4 late starts or St. Louis or Montreal. Slash, Izzy, Duff and Matt could've continued on without him. You wouldn't have had the big Vegas band in 1992 or the Estranged video if Axl had been sacked.

You're a joke. Straight up. So the new persona this week is Axl was a liability and they should have dumped him? You're clearly trolling so I'm not even going to bother.

Things are so much better without Miser threads.

It's been my opinion growing the last few months, actually. Is it not possible for one's opinion to change over time? I was away from here completely for almost six months by choice, and in that time I did a lot of thinking. You seem to be very anti-Axl yourself, so to bash me for also not being a fan of Axl is odd.

You're an idiot. Go away.

[Padme]

What if I had a time machine, went back in 1985 with a pic of the current Axl and showed it to the Axl back then?

At that time he wasn´t probably sure he would past 27 years of age. So if you show him that pic he probably would go "Wow! I made it to 53!" I think the best way to scare the shit out of him (the 1985 Axl) would be showing a pic of TB and Yoda. And play him CD and the Vegas DVD. I bet he would burn them and he would make sure the old band doesn´t break up in the future.