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1 minute ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

I don't feel it's fair to blame the corona virus on Trump, and it's misleading when people do that. I don't have faith that ANY politician (right or left) would have done a "good" job during an election cycle. What I mean by that is, it would be used against them no matter what. Honestly governors and local government deserve MORE of the blame than the federal does. In my state, it's been the governor calling all the shots, not the president. 

Nobody’s blaming Trump for the virus. They’re blaming him for his utterly incompetent response to it. 

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2 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

I don't feel it's fair to blame the corona virus on Trump

Nobody is blaming the corona virus on Trump.  As you probably know, every country has had to deal with the virus.

What is fair is to blame Trump for America's response.  There is literally recorded audio of Trump privately saying he likes to downplay the virus; that he knows how deadly the virus is and how easily it can be transmitted.  Publicly Trump said the exact opposite. 

3 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

I don't have faith that ANY politician (right or left) would have done a "good" job during an election cycle

I would think re-election would have motivated every other sane individual to do the right thing.

Imagine had Trump come out from the beginning and been honest with everyone about the virus.  Imagine he had put the American people and the government on alert from day one rather than saying it would go away miraculously.  Imagine he had marshalled the vast resources of the federal government in February to prepare for what was coming.  Imagine had he promoted wearing a masks from the beginning and didn't make moronic promises about miracle cures or trying to kill it with disinfectants.  Imagine he didn't hold indoor rallies.  Imagine he had been an effective leader like what we've seen from in Taiwan, South Korea, Germany, and even Canada (though even Canada's record isn't that great, though far superior to the US).  

Trump would have been a virtual lock for re-election had he done any of this.  He could have rode this crisis into a landslide victory.  Think back to 2012 when Hurricane Sandy hit the eastern seaboard.  Obama's response to the crisis was so effective that even Republican New Jersey Governor Chris Christy acknowledged that the Obama administration was doing a great job.  Obama's response to that emergency likely gave him a second term.  The opportunity was there for Trump but he fucking blew it because he's always been a terrible leader and always will be.

9 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Honestly governors and local government deserve MORE of the blame than the federal does

Yes and no.  Those states (New York, New Jersey, Connecticut) that got hit early were flying blind.  Governors do not have access to the kind of information and resources that the President does.  I would say that governors who failed to close their states or re-opened their states later on deserve some of the blame.  But who was person making the most noise about opening back up before the first wave had subsided?  

11 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

In my state, it's been the governor calling all the shots, not the president. 

And your Governor has done a great job considering where the numbers were back in March/April and where they are now.  Her public approval rating has also gone up.  Over 60 percent of people living in Michigan have approved her handling of the pandemic.  

Now compare that to the approval ratings of southern states where governors dismissed the science and re-opened too quickly?  

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For me, do I like Trump? No, not really and I didn't vote for him in 2016. Do I dislike Biden? No, but I don't like him either. 

What it comes down to (for me anyways) is Trump puts his cards on the table. Agree with him, disagree with him, it's easy to see where he stands. Biden is a more "typical" politician, what he says and the things he would try to accomplish in office are not always the same. 

Having said that, this is not my main reason for voting for Trump this year. I don't agree with all of Trumps/rights policies nor do I disagree with all of Bidens/the lefts. I have one major issue that is a deal breaker for me, one issue that I can not budge on, and Trump and the right are correct on this one issue, while the left is VERY wrong. 

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2 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

For me, do I like Trump? No, not really and I didn't vote for him in 2016. Do I dislike Biden? No, but I don't like him either. 

What it comes down to (for me anyways) is Trump puts his cards on the table. Agree with him, disagree with him, it's easy to see where he stands. Biden is a more "typical" politician, what he says and the things he would try to accomplish in office are not always the same. 

Having said that, this is not my main reason for voting for Trump this year. I don't agree with all of Trumps/rights policies nor do I disagree with all of Bidens/the lefts. I have one major issue that is a deal breaker for me, one issue that I can not budge on, and Trump and the right are correct on this one issue, while the left is VERY wrong. 

It was just highlighted to you about Trump saying the virus is dangerous to Woodward and then telling the American people that its not that bad.

Which you have completely ignored and then stated the opposite.

How on Earth is anyone supposed to be left with even just the option of taking you seriously, thereafter?

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Trump had a Q&A last night and was all by himself. He still didn't answer most of the questions put to him. He just loves to avoid answers to important questions people ask of him.

When asked if there was racial tensions in the US, he said he didn't believe there was. I mean come on! He could have answered honestly and said he would do his best to make things better for all, but again he denied it all.

I still don't understand how anyone with common sense could vote for this man?

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5 minutes ago, downzy said:

Nobody is blaming the corona virus on Trump.  As you probably know, every country has had to deal with the virus.

What is fair is to blame Trump for America's response.  There is literally recorded audio of Trump privately saying he likes to downplay the virus; that he knows how deadly the virus is and how easily it can be transmitted.  Publicly Trump said the exact opposite. 

I would think re-election would have motivated every other sane individual to do the right thing.

Imagine had Trump come out from the beginning and been honest with everyone about the virus.  Imagine he had put the American people and the government on alert from day one rather than saying it would go away miraculously.  Imagine he had marshalled the vast resources of the federal government in February to prepare for what was coming.  Imagine had he promoted wearing a masks from the beginning and didn't make moronic promises about miracle cures or trying to kill it with disinfectants.  Imagine he didn't hold indoor rallies.  Imagine he had been an effective leader like what we've seen from in Taiwan, South Korea, Germany, and even Canada (though even Canada's record isn't that great, though far superior to the US).  

Trump would have been a virtual lock for re-election had he done any of this.  He could have rode this crisis into a landslide victory.  Think back to 2012 when Hurricane Sandy hit the eastern seaboard.  Obama's response to the crisis was so effective that even Republican New Jersey Governor Chris Christy acknowledged that the Obama administration was doing a great job.  Obama's response to that emergency likely gave him a second term.  The opportunity was there for Trump but he fucking blew it because he's always been a terrible leader and always will be.

Yes and no.  Those states (New York, New Jersey, Connecticut) that got hit early were flying blind.  Governors do not have access to the kind of information and resources that the President does.  I would say that governors who failed to close their states or re-opened their states later on deserve some of the blame.  But who was person making the most noise about opening back up before the first wave had subsided?  

And your Governor has done a great job considering where the numbers were back in March/April and where they are now.  Her public approval rating has also gone up.  Over 60 percent of people living in Michigan have approved her handling of the pandemic.  

Now compare that to the approval ratings of southern states where governors dismissed the science and re-opened too quickly?  

I do agree that Trump didn't handle things as good as I would have liked. Having said that, I can't say for certain that the Dems would have done a bang up job either, that's purely speculation. 

As for my governor, as a whole I would say she has done a pretty good job with the virus. But she didn't start out that way, she played "follow the leader" with other states response for the first handful of months. 

She has also gone over board with her executive orders, which will most likely cost her the next election. She wasn't picked for VP because the state isn't all that happy with her. Her being on the big ticket couldn't guarantee Biden a win in MI, that's pretty telling don't you think. 

Having said all of that, I hold her to the same expectations I just started for Trump. I can't say "she did terrible" or "she did great." These are such unique circumstances that yes mistakes will be made, they are human beings after all. Would I give Whitmer a higher grade for handling the pandemic then Trump? Yes, most likely. But not by much, Trump did send my family $3000. I can't forget that. 

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6 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

What it comes down to (for me anyways) is Trump puts his cards on the table. Agree with him, disagree with him, it's easy to see where he stands. Biden is a more "typical" politician, what he says and the things he would try to accomplish in office are not always the same. 

If that's really your opinion then you haven't been paying attention.  What cards are you talking about?  The man has lied about literally every policy position.  Please explain to me what his stance on healthcare is.  What is his stance on infrastructure?  How does he plan on managing America's growing debt load?  How does he intend to unify the country and work on repairing race relations?  

Again, you have Trump literally on tape saying he likes to downplay the virus despite the fact he knows how deadly it is.  How does any of that line up to what he says publicly about the virus?  And you want to claim it's Biden who holds a public position and a private position and rarely do they align?

10 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

I have one major issue that is a deal breaker for me, one issue that I can not budge on, and Trump and the right are correct on this one issue

And what issue is that?  Disney movies?  

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2 minutes ago, downzy said:

If that's really your opinion then you haven't been paying attention.  What cards are you talking about?  The man has lied about literally every policy position.  Please explain to me what his stance on healthcare is.  What is his stance on infrastructure?  How does he plan on managing America's growing debt load?  How does he intend to unify the country and work on repairing race relations?  

Again, you have Trump literally on tape saying he likes to downplay the virus despite the fact he knows how deadly it is.  How does any of that line up to what he says publicly about the virus?  And you want to claim it's Biden who holds a public position and a private position and rarely do they align?

And what issue is that?  Disney movies?  

Abortion, all other issues are a DISTANT 2nd imo

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3 minutes ago, dontdamnmeuyi2015 said:

I still don't understand how anyone with common sense could vote for this man?

Because no one with common sense is voting for Trump.

If you're voting for Trump in 2020, you're either an asshole, an idiot, a racist, or a multi-millionaire (in which case his tax cuts have helped you tremendously).  

Just now, Iron MikeyJ said:

Abortion

So then you've never voted Democrat.  

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9 minutes ago, dontdamnmeuyi2015 said:

Trump had a Q&A last night and was all by himself. He still didn't answer most of the questions put to him. He just loves to avoid answers to important questions people ask of him.

But according to some it’s Biden who will say anything to be elected.

 

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1 minute ago, downzy said:

Because no one with common sense is voting for Trump.

If you're voting for Trump in 2020, you're either an asshole, an idiot, a racist, or a multi-millionaire (in which case his tax cuts have helped you tremendously).  

So then you've never voted Democrat.  

I voted for Gore, Obama twice, and Hillary. I used to be quite liberal.

I avoided the abortion issue like the plague though. Like many people (I'm assuming) I felt "it's just too complicated to decide or change the law." Well I finally got educated on the issue, and to be quite honest, the entire liberal stance falls on itself when it comes to abortion. They literally feel they are morally right, and support thousands of issues, racial and other wise. At the same time supporting the genocide (yes genocide) of the most innocent every year. It's hypocrisy of the highest order imo. 

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2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Jesus.

I think i know which one you are. 

Just now, Iron MikeyJ said:

I voted for Gore, Obama twice, and Hillary. I used to be quite liberal.

But they were all pro-choice candidates up against pro-life candidates.

How does abortion become the one issue you care about in 2020 when it didn't matter as much in 2000, 2008, 2012, and 2016?

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2 minutes ago, downzy said:

I think i know which one you are. 

But they were all pro-choice candidates up against pro-life candidates.

How does abortion become the one issue you care about in 2020 when it didn't matter as much in 2000, 2008, 2012, and 2016?

I finally got educated on that issue. I then saw the hypocrisy of the liberals and decided I can't support ANY candidate that supports abortion. What happens in abortion clinics every day is FAR WORSE than anything that ever happens to African Americans, Native Americans or any other race. I mean that, and I'm sorry but it's true.

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1 minute ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

I finally got educated on that issue. I then saw the hypocrisy of the liberals and decided I can't support ANY candidate that supports abortion. What happens in abortion clinics every day is FAR WORSE than anything that ever happens to African Americans, Native Americans or any other race. I mean that, and I'm sorry but it's true.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion.  Myself, and many others, would vehemently disagree with your assessment. 

But if abortion is the only issue that determines your vote, then what difference does it make if Biden lied about his education 30 years ago?  

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12 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Abortion, all other issues are a DISTANT 2nd imo

Typical. Fucking kids is fine but deleting an embryo is beyond the pale. :lol: Do you honestly believe that Trump is anti abortion? :lol: 

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8 minutes ago, downzy said:

I think i know which one you are. 

I cannot believe somebody exists that holds views as abhorrent as, you have to be either an ''asshole, an idiot, a racist, or a multi-millionaire'' to vote for somebody that you personally disagree with. Cannot believe you even have the nerve to suggest somebody is a ''racist'' whilst holding such contempt for two-way party democracy. 

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2 minutes ago, downzy said:

This I have to hear.

What education led you to believe that abortion is the one issue that determines your vote?  

Science for starters. Human DNA means without a SHADOW of a doubt you are a human being. Just because a human is in a different state of development (the womb) does not mean it is NOT a human being. The left likes to use social science to defend abortion, but the REAL sciences, biology, chemistry, etc CLEARLY say differently. 

Another issue is All lives are equal to one another, it's a truth we should all fundamentally agree with. So when a person (the mother) decides her life is MORE important than that of her unborn child, she has put more value on her life than that of another's.

Think of it like this, if two people are stranded on a desserted island, and they only have enough food for one to survive, is killing the other person a reasonable option? If you feel it is, then we fundamentally disagree on the value of human life. 

5 minutes ago, downzy said:

Well, you're entitled to your opinion.  Myself, and many others, would vehemently disagree with your assessment. 

But if abortion is the only issue that determines your vote, then what difference does it make if Biden lied about his education 30 years ago?  

I guess it doesn't, I just found it interesting. 

You feel the genocide of hundreds of thousands every year is not a big deal?

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3 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Science for starters. Human DNA means without a SHADOW of a doubt you are a human being. Just because a human is in a different state of development (the womb) does not mean it is NOT a human being. The left likes to use social science to defend abortion, but the REAL sciences, biology, chemistry, etc CLEARLY say differently. 

If you believe in the REAL sciences you might want to ask your new party about evolution. Y'know, the basis of modern biology?

You might also want to consider this

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientific-american-endorses-joe-biden/

Edited by Dazey
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8 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

I voted for Gore, Obama twice, and Hillary. I used to be quite liberal.

I avoided the abortion issue like the plague though. Like many people (I'm assuming) I felt "it's just too complicated to decide or change the law." Well I finally got educated on the issue, and to be quite honest, the entire liberal stance falls on itself when it comes to abortion. They literally feel they are morally right, and support thousands of issues, racial and other wise. At the same time supporting the genocide (yes genocide) of the most innocent every year. It's hypocrisy of the highest order imo. 

Its a heavy issue, man. And that's why we all need to take it seriously and discuss it honestly.

Calling it genocide is incorrect, as genocide is when an entire group of people are targeted. Unless you're getting into conspiracy theory territory, it weakens your position to mislabel abortion this way. Because in today's Murica, not all unborn babies are targeted for abortion.

"Decimating the unborn population" might be far more accurate and still carries the intended weight.

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Just now, Dazey said:

If you believe in the REAL sciences you might want to ask your new party about evolution. Y'know, the basis of modern biology?

I don't claim to be a member of any political party, nor do I defend ignorance when it comes to things like evolution. I'm not sure what this has to do with anything I've said?

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43 minutes ago, downzy said:

So then what is the argument you're trying to make?

Black Americans had it worse than anyone else, but other minorities also had it bad and their communities have done relatively better?  And therefore systemic racism doesn't exist because of this fact?  

I would say black slaves had it the worst, in agreement there.

Other immigrant groups had it rough, but not quite as bad as black slaves, and some of those immigrant communities outperform whites, and some don't. It is interesting discussion in and of itself to analyze why pre 65 east asians outperformed latino/mestizo populations.

Systematic racism is too much of a blanket term. I think we have to do material investigation of each instance and group and see why they are failing or excelling. Also, the term racism itself has undergone massive changes to it's definition over the years. That could be a whole other discussion.

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