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The US Politics/Elections Thread


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3 hours ago, downzy said:

No it doesn't.  It's simply outlining how the Obama administration responded to a deadly pandemic compared to how Trump responded. 

You're the one inserting your own assumptions.  

The analogy is utterly useless as Corona is an infinitely different beast.

3 hours ago, downzy said:

Right.  So leadership does matter.  

Where have I said it doesn't?

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Donald Trump just grabbed America by the pussy

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4 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

USA has had 618 deaths per million citizens from COVID-19. The world average is 124.8. If USA had handled the pandemic as well as the average of the world, they would have had only 41,300 deaths by now. The difference is about 160,000 deaths. That bears repeating: if USA had handled the pandemic as well as how other countries have handled it, on average, 160,000 Americans would be alive today. Because surely we would expect a country like USA, a modern democracy with great infrastructure for healthcare and great doctors, etc, to do better than the world average? There is no better metric for how badly Trump and his administration has handled this disease. 160,000 deaths. One hundred and sixty thousand people who could have been saved. And people are going to reelect the incompetent fool? He can't handle businesses and he can't handle pandemics. Surprised?

Do you have any statistics on what countries have the highest numbers of elderly and obese citizens?  Those are the most at risk for dying from this pandemic and I can assure you the United States has an insane amount of obesity throughout the country.  That could explain the high death rate here.

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Just now, Swampfox said:

Do you have any statistics on what countries have the highest numbers of elderly and obese citizens?  Those are the most at risk for dying from this pandemic and I can assure you the United States has an insane amount of obesity throughout the country.  That could explain the high death rate here.

I don't have that statistics but it is easy to find. But yes, of course such factors would play into all of this. Then there are reasons why USA should perform better than the world average: USA is a rich country with the means to quickly scale up health care infrastructure to handle a large amount of sick people, and even without scaling up anything the USA has a good hospital beds/citizen ratio and well-educated doctors and nurses. Remember that we compare with the world average which includes shit-poor countries with much more primitive hospitals and much fewer beds and doctors per capita, nor with the means to quickly ramp up capacities and procure additional equipment (masks and ventilators and stuff).

So yeah, the population with its fatness and old age will suggest a higher mortality than the world's average but the modernity of the hospitals and wealth of the country should suggest a lower mortality. How this balances out is anybody's guess, but I doubt you can excuse those 200k excess deaths on fat and age alone. The incompetence of the Trump administration's handling of the pandemic is well-known and not really contested by anyone but the most blind Trump supporters who can't find any fault with the buffoon they have decided to support.

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Hasn't a criticism by the (mostly non-American) left-wing been the appalling standards of America's health care, yet now we are told that America has the riches and capacity that should have surpassed every other country regarding healthcare!

Which one is it?

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28 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Hasn't a criticism by the (mostly non-American) left-wing been the appalling standards of America's health care, yet now we are told that America has the riches and capacity that should have surpassed every other country regarding healthcare!

Which one is it?

Great point.  I always hear how broken our healthcare system is.  I'm going with the obesity in our country as the biggest reason for the high amount of deaths.  "Shit poor" countries as @SoulMonsterhas described don't have the means to eat themselves to death like Americans do. 

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8 minutes ago, Swampfox said:

Great point.  I always hear how broken our healthcare system is.  I'm going with the obesity in our country as the biggest reason for the high amount of deaths.  "Shit poor" countries as @SoulMonsterhas described don't have the means to eat themselves to death like Americans do. 

Obesity isn't always a result of how much you eat but of what you eat. In a lot of third world countries you see a lot of obesity because they have poor diet.

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6 minutes ago, Swampfox said:

Great point.  I always hear how broken our healthcare system is.  I'm going with the obesity in our country as the biggest reason for the high amount of deaths.  "Shit poor" countries as @SoulMonsterhas described don't have the means to eat themselves to death like Americans do. 

I don't think it's a matter of a broken system. It's a matter of unfair system. Your company provides the healthcare for you. If you lose your job you also lose your healthecare. There should be more programs and alternatives, including something for pre exiting conditions. 

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48 minutes ago, Swampfox said:

Great point.  I always hear how broken our healthcare system is.  I'm going with the obesity in our country as the biggest reason for the high amount of deaths.  "Shit poor" countries as @SoulMonsterhas described don't have the means to eat themselves to death like Americans do. 

It isn't a great point because no one is saying that the US healthcare system is bad - USA has some of the best hospitals and doctors in the world with great equipment and competence. The problem is that, as you say, it is "broken", in the sense that it isn't available to all your citizens. It is a system for the haves while the have nots will have to do without. So it is the "system" part of "health care system" that is broken. 

As for obesity: Neither data on obesity in countries or data on obesity as a co-morbidity for COVID-19 would support your theory that the main reason USA is doing so poorly re: COVID-19 is your fatness. But grab on to that straw if it makes you feel better :)

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3 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

It isn't a great point because no one is saying that the US healthcare system is bad - USA has some of the best hospitals and doctors in the world with great equipment and competence. The problem is that, as you say, it is "broken", in the sense that it isn't available to all your citizens. It is a system for the haves while the have nots will have to do without. So it is the "system" part of "health care system" that is broken. 

As for obesity: Neither data on obesity in countries or data on obesity as a co-morbidity for COVID-19 would support your theory that the main reason USA is doing so poorly re: COVID-19 is your fatness. But grab on to that straw if it makes you feel better :)

Obesity is one of the leading risk factors among covid deaths.  Others include age and pre existing conditions such as cancer or heart disease.  Cancer and heart disease are also linked to obesity so looks to me obesity is a leading cause of death when contracting covid.  I'm not grasping at straws.  Look at the data.  Around 40% of the US is obese.  Is it Trump's fault there's so many fat people dying from this?

https://hub.jhu.edu/2020/06/01/david-kass-obesity-covid-19/

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10 minutes ago, Swampfox said:

Obesity is one of the leading risk factors among covid deaths.  Others include age and pre existing conditions such as cancer or heart disease.  Cancer and heart disease are also linked to obesity so looks to me obesity is a leading cause of death when contracting covid.  I'm not grasping at straws.  Look at the data.  Around 40% of the US is obese.  Is it Trump's fault there's so many fat people dying from this?

https://hub.jhu.edu/2020/06/01/david-kass-obesity-covid-19/

Yes, because the measures taken should be reflective of the needs of the US population.

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10 minutes ago, soon said:

Yes, because the measures taken should be reflective of the needs of the US population.

They were fat long before Trump became President and long before Corona virus hit.  People have been warned for years about the obesity problem in this country but nobody listened.  Now it's Trump's fault?  

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Just now, Swampfox said:

They were fat long before Trump became President and long before Corona virus hit.  People have been warned for years about the obesity problem in this country but nobody listened.  Now it's Trump's fault?  

That doesnt speak to what I posted.

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There are cultural factors to consider in the COVID-under-different-president hypothetical too. Americans obsession with liberty and “muh rights” would’ve always led us to have less mask wearing and distancing than other countries. Still, there would’ve been significantly fewer deaths under a different president, but there’s too many variables to try to pin down a number. 

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1 hour ago, Swampfox said:

So be more clear.  

Right, because your vapid inability to respond to my post should compel me to waste more time engaging you and your idiotic canned talking point. :lol:

(and now, given the childish way your lot sees political debate, youll make an ego appeal that I havent responded and youve therefore proven your stupid point. See this post^^)

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Apparently, after four years of Trump presidency white male Americans are as supportive of Trump as they were in 2016, but white ladies have swung and the majority now favors Biden. If that isn't evidence for females bring more intelligent than males, I don't know what is. 

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Tonight is the debate between Biden and Trump. I'm dvring it because I don't think I could stand to watch the whole thing all the way through. I will watch it to see if anything weird or exciting happens.

I do hope both of them answer the questions they are given with an intelligent answer and not have a yelling match.

5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Apparently, after four years of Trump presidency white male Americans are as supportive of Trump as they were in 2016, but white ladies have swung and the majority now favors Biden. If that isn't evidence for females bring more intelligent than males, I don't know what is. 

We have to have a President that will do what is right for all people  and bring America closer. We are all too far apart and between the virus, race relations and fires and storms, something good has to happen in the next 4 years or we're fucked yet again.

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8 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Apparently, after four years of Trump presidency white male Americans are as supportive of Trump as they were in 2016, but white ladies have swung and the majority now favors Biden. If that isn't evidence for females bring more intelligent than males, I don't know what is. 

Car keys on the table in a Barratt?

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2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Apparently, after four years of Trump presidency white male Americans are as supportive of Trump as they were in 2016, but white ladies have swung and the majority now favors Biden. If that isn't evidence for females bring more intelligent than males, I don't know what is. 

But Trump's support is up among Latino voters.  Are they dumber than they were in 2016?

2 hours ago, soon said:

Right, because your vapid inability to respond to my post should compel me to waste more time engaging you and your idiotic canned talking point. :lol:

(and now, given the childish way your lot sees political debate, youll make an ego appeal that I havent responded and youve therefore proven your stupid point. See this post^^)

So nasty!  On the rag again?

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20 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Just read a rumour Biden requested 30 mins intervals and this request was vetoed by Trump. Don't shoot the messenger. 

They're probably worried Biden won't remember his answers if he's out there too long.  I'm still surprised he's actually showing up tonight.  

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12 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

The analogy is utterly useless as Corona is an infinitely different beast.

They are both viral outbreaks.  One is more transmissible, the other deadlier.

It's still a valid contrast despite the differences in these factors.  We can still compare how firefighters put out a one alarm fire versus a five alarm fire if the five alarm fire involves the firefighters denying there's even a fire.

 

10 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Hasn't a criticism by the (mostly non-American) left-wing been the appalling standards of America's health care, yet now we are told that America has the riches and capacity that should have surpassed every other country regarding healthcare!

No, that hasn't been the criticism of the left.  

The problems stem from access and cost, not quality of care or capacity.  

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