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26 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

The idea of the mandate was to offset the cost of people going to hospitals, etc with no insurance then getting a $50,000 bill that they never pay for. 

That was part of it. 

The other part was to entice more healthier and younger people to buy insurance to help offset the policy of covering everyone, including those with pre-existing conditions.  It was thought at the time of the policy's design that if you don't entice/coerce healthier/younger people from buying insurance than premiums would be too expensive because it would only be unhealthy and sick people signing up.  Anyone with the most basic understanding of actuarial science knows that an insurance pool with only old and sick people will yield very expensive premiums. 

It turns out that the law still works without the mandate since most people want insurance, whether old/sick or young/healthy.  Trump likes to take credit for lowering insurance premiums but the truth is that premiums have come down largely because of those who are signing up for insurance.

The other reason governments using coercion to have citizens buy insurance is they will take better care of themselves and put less strain on the health care system.  Insured people are more likely to go to a doctor and have something checked out earlier than those uninsured.  It is far cheaper to address a health problem in its earlier stage than tackled it later.  This is why spending money insurance saves money in the long run.

But guys like @Swampfox either don't care or don't understand.  They've been spoonfed so much bullshit from right-wing echo chambers that they choose to ignore rather simple facts about how and why the ACA makes America better from a health and economic standpoint.  

 

17 minutes ago, Dazey said:
Elite shite force more like. :lol: 

I don't think their understanding of geography is all that strong...

 

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4 minutes ago, Padme said:

Giuliani's son tested positive. 

 

I guess his job is holding other peoples carry-on, swag bags and file folders? Or maybe those swag bags are other peoples take-out orders? :lol:

*Hold my beer, Andrew*

 

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9 hours ago, downzy said:

 

Beginning of socialism?  Buying healthcare insurance from private providers is now socialism?

Please explain how forcing people to pay payroll taxes to cover social security and forcing people to pay for health insurance is different?

It's actually quite simple and I'm surprised someone so smart needs to ask the question.  First of all the government penalized uninsured individuals who did not sign up for Obamacare.  They're forcing people to pay for a service they might not want.  Secondly, social security is totally different than Obamacare.  What someone receives in retirement varies by how much money they made and how much they paid into social security their whole lives.  For someone who refused to sign up for Obamacare they would pay thousands a year and receive nothing in return.  And btw if I had a choice I would opt out of social security and invest my money elsewhere.  I would much rather keep my money out of the government's hands.

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14 hours ago, Swampfox said:

It's actually quite simple and I'm surprised someone so smart needs to ask the question.  First of all the government penalized uninsured individuals who did not sign up for Obamacare.  They're forcing people to pay for a service they might not want.  Secondly, social security is totally different than Obamacare.  What someone receives in retirement varies by how much money they made and how much they paid into social security their whole lives.  For someone who refused to sign up for Obamacare they would pay thousands a year and receive nothing in return.  And btw if I had a choice I would opt out of social security and invest my money elsewhere.  I would much rather keep my money out of the government's hands.

I understand your point.  On paper it may have looked like some huge government "overreach" but when it was put in place, it really was nowhere near as "bad" as you seem to think it was.  The individual mandate started at $95 per individual and gradually (over the course of years)  maxed out to $695 per individual or a family maximum of 2.5% of income.  If you were under a certain income, there was no "penalty" but I doubt it even mattered because those folks would likely get insurance at no cost or very little cost.  

I'm not sure who was paying "thousands" because the vast majority of folks at that income level would likely have insurance through their employers.  And if you were "ultra rich" you could be considered "self insured"...so they wouldn't need to pay it either. 

The mandate itself was not enforced like a regular tax.  If you refused to pay it there were no penalties or fines.  It could be taken from a future tax return if you were to receive a refund but that was it.  So if you "owed" taxes every year, you could refuse to pay it indefinitely with no criminal recourse, fines or interest accrued.   No one was going to jail for not paying the mandate. 

The crux of the matter is that the mandate had very little effect on most people as is evidenced now, since only a few million people were actually paying it and the vast majority of people maintained their health insurance coverage once it was lifted. 

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6 hours ago, Ace Nova said:

I understand your point.  On paper it may have looked like some huge government "overreach" but when it was put in place, it really was nowhere near as "bad" as you seem to think it was.  The individual mandate started at $95 per individual and gradually (over the course of years)  maxed out to $695 per individual or a family maximum of 2.5% of income.  If you were under a certain income, there was no "penalty" but I doubt it even mattered because those folks would likely get insurance at no cost or very little cost.  

I'm not sure who was paying "thousands" because the vast majority of folks at that income level would likely have insurance through their employers.  And if you were "ultra rich" you could be considered "self insured"...so they wouldn't need to pay it either. 

The mandate itself was not enforced like a regular tax.  If you refused to pay it there were no penalties or fines.  It could be taken from a future tax return if you were to receive a refund but that was it.  So if you "owed" taxes every year, you could refuse to pay it indefinitely with no criminal recourse, fines or interest accrued.   No one was going to jail for not paying the mandate. 

The crux of the matter is that the mandate had very little affect on most people as is evidenced now, since only a few million people were actually paying it and the vast majority of people maintained their health insurance coverage once it was lifted. 

My insurance costs went up thousands of dollars a year because of the Obamacare luxury tax.  I had a Cadillac plan  before the Affordable Care Act forced my employer to increase the employee contributions as well as increase our co pays and doubled our deductible as to avoid paying the millions of dollars for the luxury tax.  The luxury tax was reversed as part of Trump's tax reform but once you lose something as an employee you never get it back.  Many people like myself felt the hit even though we had perfectly good healthcare before.  My father signed up for Obama Care and says it's garbage.

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It's amazing to hear and watch the mental gymnastics that Trump supporters are required to perform at this point in order to remain confident that election fraud will be proven and the results will be overturned.

Trump lawyer Sydney Powell has been on rant of late saying she has all this evidence of voter fraud that swung the election by tens of millions of votes.  That somehow, in the midst of a pandemic that has killed 250k Americans so far, the real results show a landslide victory for Trump.  You ask why she hasn't presented this evidence in court yet, she'll say she didn't have it available to her and Trump's legal team until recently.  Which then leads one to ask, well, if you didn't have the real evidence until this past week, on what basis was Trump and his legal campaign's teams claims that the election was stolen nearly three weeks ago.  It's been the same refrain from November 4th, but somehow the evidence to prove it has only shown up in the last three or four days.  Got it.

And when given a chance to get the public on their side by outlining their evidence in a friendly environment like Tucker Carlson's show, they decline.

It's utterly insane.  

And yet millions still choose to believe it. 

Powell was on Newsmax the other day claiming that the conspiracy involves Bernie Sanders, AOC, the CIA, Lichtenstein, Venezuela, Serbia, and many others.  Say what you want about those on the left who believed four years ago that Russia hacked the voting systems to give Trump the win, at least they kept it simple.  

It reminds me of the Simpsons episode where the kids come up with a conspiracy theory as to why their parents are going to bed early:

"The Rand Corporation, in conjunction with the saucer people, under the supervision of the reverse vampires are forcing our parents to go to bed early in a fiendish plot to eliminate the meal of dinner."

f1dQIGhgKFw74dfDxJSxEXZtp_sl6OYGnT3VmlkL

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2 hours ago, downzy said:

It's amazing to hear and watch the mental gymnastics that Trump supporters are required to perform at this point in order to remain confident that election fraud will be proven and the results will be overturned.

Trump lawyer Sydney Powell has been on rant of late saying she has all this evidence of voter fraud that swung the election by tens of millions of votes.  That somehow, in the midst of a pandemic that has killed 250k Americans so far, the real results show a landslide victory for Trump.  You ask why she hasn't presented this evidence in court yet, she'll say she didn't have it available to her and Trump's legal team until recently.  Which then leads one to ask, well, if you didn't have the real evidence until this past week, on what basis was Trump and his legal campaign's teams claims that the election was stolen nearly three weeks ago.  It's been the same refrain from November 4th, but somehow the evidence to prove it has only shown up in the last three or four days.  Got it.

And when given a chance to get the public on their side by outlining their evidence in a friendly environment like Tucker Carlson's show, they decline.

It's utterly insane.  

And yet millions still choose to believe it. 

Powell was on Newsmax the other day claiming that the conspiracy involves Bernie Sanders, AOC, the CIA, Lichtenstein, Venezuela, Serbia, and many others.  Say what you want about those on the left who believed four years ago that Russia hacked the voting systems to give Trump the win, at least they kept it simple.  

It reminds me of the Simpsons episode where the kids come up with a conspiracy theory as to why their parents are going to bed early:

"The Rand Corporation, in conjunction with the saucer people, under the supervision of the reverse vampires are forcing our parents to go to bed early in a fiendish plot to eliminate the meal of dinner."

f1dQIGhgKFw74dfDxJSxEXZtp_sl6OYGnT3VmlkL

Now you know how Trump supporters felt during the Mueller investigation for three years.  Democrats like Adam Schiff insisted they had the evidence they needed and it ended up being a huge waste of time and millions of tax payer dollars.  Just remember that when you criticize the other side.

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45 minutes ago, Swampfox said:

Now you know how Trump supporters felt during the Mueller investigation for three years.  Democrats like Adam Schiff insisted they had the evidence they needed and it ended up being a huge waste of time and millions of tax payer dollars.  Just remember that when you criticize the other side.

No...  Not at all.  Not even close.

There was absolutely instances of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia.  The issue was whether it reached the level of criminal conspiracy.  Mueller found that it did not.  But there was ample evidence of the Trump campaign in contact and in conversation with various elements of the Russian government.  From the meeting in Trump tower to Manafort providing internal polling data to Russian assets to Roger Stone providing some form of coordination regarding leaking of Russian obtained DNC emails.  The question wasn't whether there was evidence, but whether it was sufficient to define as a criminal conspiracy.

In no way is any of that comparable to what the Trump campaign and its legal team are alleging with the recent election.  There is zero credible evidence that would support anything close to what Giuliani or Powell are suggesting.  

You're either not paying attention or willing to be sincere.   

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I was watching Bill Marhr's show last night and since Trump got elected every year since then Bill was saying how it'll be hard to get him out of the WH if he loses the election. lol I knew this too and Spike Lee has said this on "The View". Imagine Trump locks himself in the WH and takes hostages and doesn't want to come out? It could happen with this crackpot.

He's still not cooperating with Biden on all important government issues. Biden has a lot of work ahead of him.

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