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4 minutes ago, soon said:

First explain how this is funny to you?

Because it's not coercion. 

It's the united condemnation by nearly every South American, most Central American, and Canada to the actions of the Maduro's government to undermine the 2015 elections of the National Assembly and the subsequent events and escalation in the following years.

But somehow the mention of "Lima Group," something you seem to know nothing about other than the name, is proof of economic warfare by the US against the people of Venezuela.  

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Just now, downzy said:

Because it's not coercion. 

It's the united condemnation by nearly every South American, most Central American, and Canada to the actions of the Maduro's government to undermine the 2015 elections of the National Assembly.

But somehow the mention of "Lima Group," something you seem to know nothing about other than the name, is proof of economic warfare by the US against the people of Venezuela.  

No. I said that one issue facing the Venezuelan people was the US economic warfare (which you've spoken about the sanctions). And I said another issue facing the Venezuelan people is the Lima Group. You seem to be conflating the two.

I'd love for you to demonstrate that I don't know about the Lima Group? 

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1 minute ago, soon said:

No. I said that one issue facing the Venezuelan people was the US economic warfare (which you've spoken about the sanctions). And I said another issue facing the Venezuelan people is the Lima Group. You seem to be conflating the two.

I'd love for you to demonstrate that I don't know about the Lima Group? 

You've already demonstrated that fact by stating that the Lima group constitutes coercion by foreign nations for regime change.  

Regardless, your suggestion that the economic misery that Venezuela finds itself in is the product of foreign coercion, interference, and outright economic warfare is devoid of any real knowledge or understanding of what has happened within the country and how Maduro's policies have led the country to ruin. 

You have only mentioned the Lima Group as an implication in place of any real substantiation. 

But I guess it's just easier to make passing references to the Lima Group rather than put forward a real argument that defends your position.  

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2 hours ago, jimisbatman said:

Not in America, and our media is limited.  What's the latest with the Trump impeachment proceedings? What's the likely outcome? 

Its a circus pretty much. Republicans couldn't care less if Trump did anything wrong and Democrats have decided to take a simple abuse of power case that has nothing to do with Russia and make it about Russia.

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14 hours ago, downzy said:

You've already demonstrated that fact by stating that the Lima group constitutes coercion by foreign nations for regime change.  

Regardless, your suggestion that the economic misery that Venezuela finds itself in is the product of foreign coercion, interference, and outright economic warfare is devoid of any real knowledge or understanding of what has happened within the country and how Maduro's policies have led the country to ruin. 

You have only mentioned the Lima Group as an implication in place of any real substantiation. 

But I guess it's just easier to make passing references to the Lima Group rather than put forward a real argument that defends your position.  

Below are some of my previous posts of times I've spoken about the Lima Group in this thread. I invite you to read them. They are complete with lots of great links that I trust you will find informative. One link seems dead so I will include a fresh one. I'll also start you off with a few of the links here:

Spoiler

- The Lima Groups declaration (dead link in my first post)

https://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/international_relations-relations_internationales/latin_america-amerique_latine/2019-01-04-lima_group-groupe_lima.aspx?lang=eng

Updated: https://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/international_relations-relations_internationales/latin_america-amerique_latine/2019-05-03-lima_group-groupe_lima.aspx?lang=eng

 

- Economic Warfare

"Here is the fact: The sanctions that the U.S. has slapped on Venezuela cost the country an estimated $30 million a day. That should be the scandal. The U.S. is depriving the Venezuelan people of $30 million a day and then turning around and declaring Maduro one of the great monsters of history for blocking a shipment that the U.S. tried to drive into Venezuela without any coordination with the government or with major aid agencies.

The International Committee of the Red Cross has refused to participate in Washington’s aid stunt with its spokesperson in Colombia saying “We will not be participating in what is, for us, not humanitarian aid.” Another senior Red Cross official said the U.S. aid had a “political tone.”"

https://theintercept.com/2019/02/13/neoliberalism-or-death-the-u-s-economic-war-against-venezuela/?campaign=homepage-podcast-intercepted

On Feb 25th, 2019 US VP Mike Pence chaired a meeting of the Lima Group and called on the groups nations to freeze all assets of Venezuelas nationalized oil agency.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/lima-group-bogota-venezuela-1.5032202

 

- War criminal Elliot Abrams running point on Venezuela 

https://www.cbc.ca/listen/shows/day-6/segment/15672186

Post #1 

Post #2

Post #3

 

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3 hours ago, soon said:

Below are some of my previous posts of times I've spoken about the Lima Group in this thread. I invite you to read them. They are complete with lots of great links that I trust you will find informative. One link seems dead so I will include a fresh one. I'll also start you off with a few of the links here:

  Reveal hidden contents

- The Lima Groups declaration (dead link in my first post)

https://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/international_relations-relations_internationales/latin_america-amerique_latine/2019-01-04-lima_group-groupe_lima.aspx?lang=eng

Updated: https://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/international_relations-relations_internationales/latin_america-amerique_latine/2019-05-03-lima_group-groupe_lima.aspx?lang=eng

 

- Economic Warfare

"Here is the fact: The sanctions that the U.S. has slapped on Venezuela cost the country an estimated $30 million a day. That should be the scandal. The U.S. is depriving the Venezuelan people of $30 million a day and then turning around and declaring Maduro one of the great monsters of history for blocking a shipment that the U.S. tried to drive into Venezuela without any coordination with the government or with major aid agencies.

The International Committee of the Red Cross has refused to participate in Washington’s aid stunt with its spokesperson in Colombia saying “We will not be participating in what is, for us, not humanitarian aid.” Another senior Red Cross official said the U.S. aid had a “political tone.”"

https://theintercept.com/2019/02/13/neoliberalism-or-death-the-u-s-economic-war-against-venezuela/?campaign=homepage-podcast-intercepted

On Feb 25th, 2019 US VP Mike Pence chaired a meeting of the Lima Group and called on the groups nations to freeze all assets of Venezuelas nationalized oil agency.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/lima-group-bogota-venezuela-1.5032202

 

- War criminal Elliot Abrams running point on Venezuela 

https://www.cbc.ca/listen/shows/day-6/segment/15672186

Post #1 

Post #2

Post #3

 

Again, all of your posts are founded on the absurd assumption that U.S. actions towards Venezuela and whatever lofty statements by the Lima Group represent a coup against the state of Venezuela.

I would be inclined to agree if any of your posts actually described concrete actions that foreign interests are taking to actually facilitate an actual coup.  Countries are allowed to, save for military engagement, decide and conduct diplomatic and economic relations however they see fit.  If Canada, Brazil, the U.S., Mexico, Colombia, and nearly every other South American country feel they can use their diplomatic and economic tools to put pressure on Maduro's autocratic and corrupt government, it's their right to do so.  Personally, I think only the deranged could find fault in that or place any responsibility for the humanitarian crisis in Venezuela on foreign efforts to move Venezuela to a nation that respects an impartial judicial and electoral system. 

Moreover, the Maduro's hold on power is indeed illegitimate for a whole host of reasons (some I've already described, some I have not).  He has repeatedly undermined elections to cling to power while upending the authority of the National Assembly and delegitimized the court system by packing the courts with his own cronies.

I just don't see efforts by foreign governments to push for the return of democracy and legitimate representative governance in the state of Venezuela as a pejorative mandate.  Again, the pain and misery that has been going on in Venezuela is the product of internal actions by corrupt government.  It is not the product of foreign intervention.  

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26 minutes ago, downzy said:

Again, all of your posts are founded on the absurd assumption that U.S. actions towards Venezuela and whatever lofty statements by the Lima Group represent a coup against the state of Venezuela.

There is a difference between backing a coup and being its architect. Some of my posts present facts that highlight how the Lima Groups is backing the coup.

Also the Lima Group members have imposed sanctions and frozen assets so its not honest to characterize their actions as merely "lofty statements."

29 minutes ago, downzy said:

Personally, I think only the deranged could find fault in that or place any responsibility for the humanitarian crisis in Venezuela on foreign efforts to move Venezuela to a nation that respects an impartial judicial and electoral system. 

I know I presented a lot of info, so maybe you missed this part,

4 hours ago, soon said:

"Here is the fact: The sanctions that the U.S. has slapped on Venezuela cost the country an estimated $30 million a day. That should be the scandal. The U.S. is depriving the Venezuelan people of $30 million a day and then turning around and declaring Maduro one of the great monsters of history for blocking a shipment that the U.S. tried to drive into Venezuela without any coordination with the government or with major aid agencies.

The International Committee of the Red Cross has refused to participate in Washington’s aid stunt with its spokesperson in Colombia saying “We will not be participating in what is, for us, not humanitarian aid.” Another senior Red Cross official said the U.S. aid had a “political tone.”"

https://theintercept.com/2019/02/13/neoliberalism-or-death-the-u-s-economic-war-against-venezuela/?campaign=homepage-podcast-intercepted

 

 

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25 minutes ago, soon said:

There is a difference between backing a coup and being its architect. Some of my posts present facts that highlight how the Lima Groups is backing the coup.

Also the Lima Group members have imposed sanctions and frozen assets so its not honest to characterize their actions as merely "lofty statements."

I know I presented a lot of info, so maybe you missed this part,

 

 

That would all be true if Venezuela wasn't already mired in economic collapse prior to the sanctions that are targeted to the leaders of the Maduro government and to the state-owned oil and gas company, PDVSA.

Again, it's not a coup.  There haven't been fair and non-corrupt elections in Venezuela for years.  Maduro only clings to power by packing the courts, delegitimizing the National Assembly, and using pay-to-vote schemes to stay in power.  It's a "democracy" in name only.  

As the recent polls indicate, nearly 9 in 10 Venezuelans want Maduro gone.  International pressure to push Maduro from power that he clings to without the backing of a majority of Venezuelans isn't a coop.  

BTW, sanctions constituting $30 million a day, even if it were directed towards the Venezuelan people (which they are not), is a drop in the bucket.  PDVSA generates between $40 to $50 billion USD a year annually. 

Also, you might want to check your "information."  I can't find any source that says the Lima Group, as a united body, has made any move to freeze the assets of the Venezuelan government.  The Americans have, but from my understanding and reading into the situation, no member of the Lima Group has frozen government owned assets from abroad.  Again, the sanctions have been specific to particular Maduro officials, and not designed to affect persons not specified by name.  

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21 hours ago, -W.A.R- said:

 

Compare how Washington handles Israel/Palestine to how it handled South Africa in the late 80's/early 90's. South Africa was threatened with military force by HW Bush if they didn't end apartheid and essentially have a one state solution. Now see how every Washington administration has handled Israel, they are allowed to run an apartheid state and then the solution offered is a two state solution where the Palestinian Arabs will get a non contiguous state that looks like a gerrymandered district. It's almost as if zionists have a lot of power over Washington and South African Boers in the 80's/90's didn't. 

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On 2020-01-29 at 4:56 AM, jimisbatman said:

Not in America, and our media is limited.  What's the latest with the Trump impeachment proceedings? What's the likely outcome? 

In short form:

The latest is as predicted, Trump will be acquitted. This means he stays in power and is set for a Nov election.  The people will decide if he gets another 4 years, which by the looks of things is a sure bet.

So nothing changes, Trump wins again and we have 4 more years of people that love him and people that spend way too much time hating him.  Looking from Canada, love him or hate him he is very popular on both sides which only boosts him up.

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2 hours ago, gunsguy said:

In short form:

The latest is as predicted, Trump will be acquitted. This means he stays in power and is set for a Nov election.  The people will decide if he gets another 4 years, which by the looks of things is a sure bet.

So nothing changes, Trump wins again and we have 4 more years of people that love him and people that spend way too much time hating him.  Looking from Canada, love him or hate him he is very popular on both sides which only boosts him up.

Sorry, but what?

Trump is loathed by a vast majority of Canadians.  Most polls show Trump with a net favourability in Canada between 20-30 percent. There is little to no basis to suggest Trump is in any way popular in Canada. 

Also, there is little basis to assume Trump’s re-election this year is a safe bet. Trump currently has the lowest approval rating in modern American politics at this point in his Presidency. It is far lower that George H.W. Bush and Jimmy Carter who lost their bids for re-election.  The current polling shows that the impeachment proceedings haven’t had any real effect on Trump’s favourability or state polling.  He is still competitive in most battleground states, but it’s looking like he’s still going to have to draw to an inside straight to win re-election. He did it in 2016 so it would be foolish to write him off, but it is wrong to suggest that because of the impeachment proceedings he’s set for re-election in November. 

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"The leaks from John Bolton’s forthcoming book are only the most recent revelations in the impeachment process. But despite all the revelations from current and former Trump officials, the chart of public support for removing Trump from office has been a flat line. Nothing changes people’s views.

To unpack those numbers more, consider this pattern. At the height of Watergate, the overall share of people who wanted to remove the president was not much different than it is today. In fact, days before Richard Nixon resigned, only 71 percent of Democrats supported his removal, compared with 89 percent who now support removing President Trump. Then, 55 percent of independents supported removal, similar to the 48 percent who do now. The biggest shift is with Republicans. In August 1974, 31 percent of Republicans favored Nixon’s removal. Today, only 8 percent of Republicans feel that way about Trump.

The story of this impeachment is the story of American politics today: polarization."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/how-the-story-of-impeachment-tells-the-story-of-polarization/2020/01/30/cdf1ad28-43a4-11ea-b5fc-eefa848cde99_story.html?fbclid=IwAR1L6XMZHDSRVfHAPFqLMtLejJ1teHep5V5dG7dAutd86-7aobiMzSCApA8

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10 minutes ago, downzy said:

"The leaks from John Bolton’s forthcoming book are only the most recent revelations in the impeachment process. But despite all the revelations from current and former Trump officials, the chart of public support for removing Trump from office has been a flat line. Nothing changes people’s views.

To unpack those numbers more, consider this pattern. At the height of Watergate, the overall share of people who wanted to remove the president was not much different than it is today. In fact, days before Richard Nixon resigned, only 71 percent of Democrats supported his removal, compared with 89 percent who now support removing President Trump. Then, 55 percent of independents supported removal, similar to the 48 percent who do now. The biggest shift is with Republicans. In August 1974, 31 percent of Republicans favored Nixon’s removal. Today, only 8 percent of Republicans feel that way about Trump.

The story of this impeachment is the story of American politics today: polarization."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/how-the-story-of-impeachment-tells-the-story-of-polarization/2020/01/30/cdf1ad28-43a4-11ea-b5fc-eefa848cde99_story.html?fbclid=IwAR1L6XMZHDSRVfHAPFqLMtLejJ1teHep5V5dG7dAutd86-7aobiMzSCApA8

The most diverse (in all ways possible) country in the history of the world is polarized...color me shocked!

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26 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

The most diverse (in all ways possible) country in the history of the world is polarized...color me shocked!

You call a two party system "diverse?" No, thats not diverse.

Also, being diverse and being polarized is actually not such an obvious outcome, as the word diverse implies a plurality. How is it obvious that those pluralities would align themselves in two binary camps?

And the answer to that question is, the one polarity is the dominant white, power structure. The other is everyone they fear and seek to subjugate to maintain their undeserved power-over. Its not a naturally occurring situation.

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36 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

The most diverse (in all ways possible) country in the history of the world is polarized...color me shocked!

Has nothing to do with diversity.  

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18 minutes ago, downzy said:

Has nothing to do with diversity.  

That's quite a big claim. Diversity would seem to be the Occam's razor explanation.

Edit: and that's not to say that's the only thing, even homogeneous countries have some polarization. But to say it isn't a big factor in the US would not be a reasonable opinion in my view.

Edited by Basic_GnR_Fan
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20 minutes ago, soon said:

You call a two party system "diverse?" No, thats not diverse.

Also, being diverse and being polarized is actually not such an obvious outcome, as the word diverse implies a plurality. How is it obvious that those pluralities would align themselves in two binary camps?

And the answer to that question is, the one polarity is the dominant white, power structure. The other is everyone they fear and seek to subjugate to maintain their undeserved power-over. Its not a naturally occurring situation.

With a winner take all system, 2 parties is the only thing that'll be sustainable in the current system. 

The dominant power structure is a relatively small group of billionaires who don't give a shit about the average white (or brown) person that funds both of those parties. That same power structure is for open borders and continuing to diversify the country, so that doesn't quite fit your narrative of the situation. They don't fear diversity, they actually love it and want more of it. That's not me theorizing, that's me looking at the specific donors involved and what their public political positions are. We can go name by name of the opensecrets.org list of largest donors if you'd like.

Edit: here's the list https://www.opensecrets.org/overview/topindivs.php

I'd like to know which of these mega-donors are not for large amounts of immigration and are actually white supremacists?

Edited by Basic_GnR_Fan
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7 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

With a winner take all system, 2 parties is the only thing that'll be sustainable in the current system. 

Moving the goal posts. You claimed the the US is the "most diverse (in every way)" The two party system is not diverse. So you are wrong with your "in every way" claim.

8 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

The dominant power structure is a relatively small group of billionaires who don't give a shit about the average white (or brown) person that funds both of those parties. That same power structure is for open borders and continuing to diversify the country, so that doesn't quite fit your narrative of the situation. They don't fear diversity, they actually love it and want more of it. That's not me theorizing, that's me looking at the specific donors involved and what their public political positions are. We can go name by name of the opensecrets.org list of largest donors if you'd like.

Edit: here's the list https://www.opensecrets.org/overview/topindivs.php

I'd like to know which of these mega-donors are not for large amounts of immigration and are actually white supremacists?

Like I just said 'the people they'd like to subjugate.'

What I didnt say was the term "white supremacist." But that said, it appears you dont understand that the white male structure of power has tiers. It has interlocking mechanisms. All the way into patriarchal values being imposed as a norm in nuclear family households. These types of reasons are why we call it a "structure."

 

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