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On August 2, 2020 at 9:42 AM, Dazey said:

Did you know by the way that Marx and Engels first met in my city and started work on the Communist Manifesto here? 

The library is still there and free to visit. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2910228/Rare-glimpse-inside-library-Communist-Manifesto-written.html

If you’re ever in town I’ll show you around. :) 

I must have seen this pre edit and missed much of it. Very cool! And I must say that is the most commie looking place Ive ever seen! :lol: If I designed the film set for the Marx biopic, thats what it looks like! lol

Sounds good, but we're not leaving the library until you're a Marxist! :P:lol:

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Donald Trump just grabbed America by the pussy

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1 hour ago, Ace Nova said:

China could become a strong economic power moving forward but at some point, the West, will (likely)  begin to hold them to the same environmental standards, labor standards, quality control standards and safety standards; as the rest of the industrialized world.  They will also be expected to honor international intellectual property rights.  (Just an educated guess)

 That won't be an easy transition for China.  It will cost them money and likely slow down their growth to (around) average Western levels of growth.   I'm sure it's something they wish to accomplish, regardless...it's whether or not they will be willing to do it at the pace that will be expected of them.


 

China already is number 2 and closing, you're acting like this is 1995. Who is going to force them to do this, now that western nations are reliant on China for their supply chains? Where is the force of will to force these standards on China. If China just say's fuck off (which they will), then what?

 

Quote

As far as the War Games of 2002, the simulation was against a country like Iran OR Iraq.  

 

"The simulated combatants were the United States, referred to as "Blue", and a fictitious state in the Persian Gulf, "Red", often characterized as Iran or Iraq."

The U.S. must have "learned from the mistakes" they made during the simulation because less than a year later, they defeated Iraq's army (with minimal casualties) in less than 2 months....

The 2003 invasion of Iraq was the first stage of the Iraq War. The invasion phase began on 19 March 2003 (air) and 20 March 2003 (ground) and lasted just over one month,[24] including 26 days of major combat operations, in which a combined force of troops from the United States, the United Kingdom, Australia and Poland invaded Iraq. This early stage of the war formally ended on 1 May 2003 when U.S. President George W. Bush declared the "end of major combat operations", after which the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) was established as the first of several successive transitional governments leading up to the first Iraqi parliamentary election in January 2005. U.S. military forces later remained in Iraq until the withdrawal in 2011.[25]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq

The issues with the Iraq War came after, when we realized that the region would become destabilized, if we immediately withdrew. 

As far as "future conflicts" no, most Americans do not want to go to war.  (I'm not sure anyone does, really).  International conflicts are (historically) best resolved through diplomacy, imo.   But don't mistake this nation's tranquility for weakness.  If push comes to shove, of course this nation will do what needs to be done.   

Iran was always much stronger than Iraq. Plus, now they are probably even stronger because they have Russia providing them anti-aircraft technology. America would suffer real casualty numbers in a war with Iran. The neocons know that, and that's why they never pulled the trigger on hot war with Iran, no matter how badly they want regime change there.

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Why we’ll likely see Trump slither back and limit himself to Fox News for any interviews prior to the election:

https://www.vox.com/2020/8/4/21354055/trump-axios-interview-jonathan-swan

It’s almost as if Trump’s media and campaign handlers thought Trump’s interview with Wallace two weeks ago on Fox went well and decided to do it again. 

Top shelf organization they got over there. 

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1 hour ago, Swampfox said:

Two hundred miles of border wall (bollard fencing), eliminating Obamacare's individual mandate, tax reform (which hardly gave any money to Trump's base), deregulation leading to record low unemployment (before a plague fucked up the world economy), new improved trade deals with Canada, Mexico, China etc (the new deals aren't that much different than the old ones, not the change that was promised), prison reform (very few on the right wanted this, this was a Jared Kushner project), reshaping the Supreme Court.  All while being investigated for three years and impeached for a phone call.  Remind me of what Obama accomplished in eight years? 

I'm not an Obama fan, he dropped the ball in his first two years when he could affect real change.

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5 minutes ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

China already is number 2 and closing, you're acting like this is 1995. Who is going to force them to do this, now that western nations are reliant on China for their supply chains? Where is the force of will to force these standards on China. If China just say's fuck off (which they will), then what?

 

Iran was always much stronger than Iraq. Plus, now they are probably even stronger because they have Russia providing them anti-aircraft technology. America would suffer real casualty numbers in a war with Iran. The neocons know that, and that's why they never pulled the trigger on hot war with Iran, no matter how badly they want regime change there.

As China's economy continues to grow, so will the cost of doing business there.  I would think a nation like China would want to join the rest of the world in terms of "quality of life" for their citizens, pollution,  safety measure, etc etc.  And if they don't, so be it. 

There are several nations  (India,  Indonesia, Thailand) that are already starting to become manufacturing hubs.   And that's not even tapping into the vast potential of several African countries. If the cost is less and just as efficient,  businesses can choose to do business in nations that "play along" with the rest of the world.

It won't be the U.S. telling China what to do.  It will (likely) be the natural progression of the world economy, combined with global humanitarian and environmental movements. 

 

As far as Iran goes, I don't think we were as close to going to war with them as most people think.  For starters, the US doesn't want to deteriorate relations with Russia.  (Worse than what they already are).  A war with Iran could spark another cold war...and cause further skirmishes (by proxy) with Russia.  

As far as "casualties" etc...you're a smart guy, do some research on the current military capabilities of the U.S.  It's vastly different than it was in 2002.  ;)

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Swampfox said:

Two hundred miles of border wall, eliminating Obamacare's individual mandate, tax reform, deregulation leading to record low unemployment (before a plague fucked up the world economy), new improved trade deals with Canada, Mexico, China etc, prison reform, reshaping the Supreme Court.  All while being investigated for three years and impeached for a phone call.  Remind me of what Obama accomplished in eight years? 

Here’s a smarter person than both you and I clearly demolishing Trump’s “accomplishments”:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/08/hugh-hewitt-case-for-trump-deserve-reelection.html

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24 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

As China's economy continues to grow, so will the cost of doing business there.  I would think a nation like China would want to join the rest of the world in terms of "quality of life" for their citizens, pollution,  safety measure, etc etc.  And if they don't, so be it. 

There are several nations  (India,  Indonesia, Thailand) that are already starting to become manufacturing hubs.   And that's not even tapping into the vast potential of several African countries. If the cost is less and just as efficient,  businesses can choose to do business in nations that "play along" with the rest of the world.

It won't be the U.S. telling China what to do.  It will (likely) be the natural progression of the world economy, combined with global humanitarian and environmental movements. 

 

As far as Iran goes, I don't think we were as close to going to war with them as most people think.  For starters, the US doesn't want to deteriorate relations with Russia.  (Worse than what they already are).  A war with Iran could spark another cold war...and cause further skirmishes (by proxy) with Russia.  

As far as "casualties" etc...you're a smart guy, do some research on the current military capabilities of the U.S.  It's vastly different than it was in 2002.  ;)

 

China is run by a central committee of nationalists. They will only make changes if it benefits China, no other reason. I don't know what you are trying to argue here. I'm simply saying China, barring a major geopolitical fuck up, is the next number one global power. Do you disagree with this?

 

The only reason we aren't close to war with Iran is because they have Russia and their tech behind them. The neo-cons want Iran turned into Iraq 2.0 (a sectarian mess). Do some research on anti-aircraft technology development since 2002. You beat high tech by going asymmetrical. The neo-cons lost in Syria and Assad still stands, don't forget it. 

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59 minutes ago, downzy said:

Hilarious...

 

If people in Florida are allowed to vote by mail, then all the other 49 States can do it as well.  We can't do cherry picking. I'm sure the elderly are scared. But I don't think the issue for them is the voting system. I can't believe how delusional Trump guy is 

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1 hour ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

China is run by a central committee of nationalists. They will only make changes if it benefits China, no other reason. I don't know what you are trying to argue here. I'm simply saying China, barring a major geopolitical fuck up, is the next number one global power. Do you disagree with this?

 

The only reason we aren't close to war with Iran is because they have Russia and their tech behind them. The neo-cons want Iran turned into Iraq 2.0 (a sectarian mess). Do some research on anti-aircraft technology development since 2002. You beat high tech by going asymmetrical. The neo-cons lost in Syria and Assad still stands, don't forget it. 

Maybe, maybe not. 

There's a lot of things that need to go right for them for that to happen.  What drives China's economy?  It's the massive demand for consumer products, fueled by the current technological boom.  Who buys them?  That's right, the USA and the West.  What companies manufacturer their products in China? That's right...U.S. companies along with various other western companies.....

American & International Corporations In China- NOTATION- even though this is a very long list of American and other foreign corporations in China, it is certainly not a complete listing. We have only included a few of the names you may recognize. This is a list of companies who either own factories, or have contract factories producing their products in China.

Some of the companies produce 100% of their products there, and others only produce parts, or certain ingredients for their products. The list below is approximately 1% of the actual Corporate list.

Companies such as Avon, GE, and AT&T for example, have been in China and manufacturing products for 20 to 30 years. Most American consumers simply had no idea. Previously their source was Japan.

AT&T Abercrombe & Fitch Abbott Laboratories Acer Electronics Ademco Security Adidas ADI Security AGI- American Gem Institute AIG Financial Agrilink Foods, Inc. (ProFac) Allergan Laboratories American Eagle Outfitters American Standard American Tourister Ames Tools Amphenol Corporation Amway Corporation Analog Devices, Inc. Apple Computer Armani Armour Meats Ashland Chemical Ashley Furniture Associated Grocers Audi Motors AudioVox AutoZone, Inc. Avon Banana Republic Bausch & Lomb, Inc. Baxter International Bed, Bath & Beyond Belkin Electronics Best Buy Best Foods Big 5 Sporting Goods Black & Decker Body Shop Borden Foods Briggs & Stratton Calrad Electric Campbell 's Soup Canon Electronics Carole Cable Casio Instrument Caterpillar, Inc. CBC America CCTV Outlet Checker Auto CitiCorp Cisco Systems Chiquita Brands International Claire's Boutique Cobra Electronics Coby Electronics Coca Cola Foods Colgate-Palmolive Colorado Spectrum ConAgra Foods Cooper Tire Corning, Inc. Coleman Sporting Goods Compaq Crabtree & Evelyn Cracker Barrel Stores Craftsman Tools (see Sears) Cummins, Inc. Dannon Foods Dell Computer Del Monte Foods Dewalt Tools DHL Dial Corporation Diebold, Inc. Dillard's, Inc. Dodge-Phelps Dole Foods Dollar Tree Stores, Inc. Dow-Corning Eastman Kodak EchoStar Eclipse CCTV Edge Electronics Group Electric Vehicles USA, Inc. Eli Lilly Company Emerson Electric Enfamil Estee Lauder Eveready Family Dollar Stores FedEx Fisher Scientific Ford Motors Fossil Frito Lay Furniture Brands International GAP Stores Gateway Computer GE, General Electric General Foods International General Mills General Motors Gentek Gerber Foods Gillette Company Goodrich Company Goodyear Tire Google Gucci Guess? Haagen-Dazs Harley Davidson Hasbro Company Heinz Foods Hershey Foods Hitachi Hoffman-LaRoche Holt's Automotive Products Hormel Foods Home Depot Honda Motor Hoover Vacuum HP Computer Honda Honeywell Hubbell Inc. Huggies Hunts-Wesson Foods ICON Office Solutions IBM Ikea Intel Corporation J.C. Penny's J.M. Smucker Company John Deere Johnson Control Johnson & Johnson Johnstone Supply JVC Electronics KB Home Keebler Foods Kenwood Audio KFC, Kentucky Fried Chicken Kimberly Clark Knorr Foods K-Mart Kohler Kohl's Corporation Kraft Foods Kragen Auto Land's End Lee Kum Kee Foods Lexmark LG Electronics Lipton Foods L.L. Bean, Inc. Logitech Libby's Foods Linen & Things Lipo Chemicals, Inc. Lowe's Hardware Lucent Technologies Lufkin Mars Candy Martha Stewart Products Mattel McCormick Foods McDonald's McKesson Corporation Megellan GPS Memorex Merck & Company Michael's Stores Mitsubishi Electronics Mitsubishi Motors Mobile Oil Molex Motorola Motts Applesauce Multifoods Corporation Nabisco Foods National Semiconductor Nescafe Nestles Foods Nextar Nike Nikon Nivea Cosmetics Nokia Electronics Northrop Grumman Corporation NuSkin International Nutrilite (see Amway) Nvidia Corporation (G-Force) Office Depot Olin Corporation Old Navy Olympus Electronics Orion-Knight Electronics Pacific Sunwear, Inc. Pamper's Panasonic Pan Pacific Electronics Panvise Papa Johns Payless Shoesource Pelco Pentax Optics Pep Boy's Pepsico International PetsMart Petco Pfizer, Inc. Philips Electronics Phillip Morris Companies Pier 1 Imports Pierre Cardin Pillsbury Company Pioneer Electronics Pitney Bowes, Inc. Pizza Hut Plantronics PlaySchool Toys Polaris Industries Polaroid Polo (see Ralph Loren) Post Cereals Price-Pfister Pringles Praxair Proctor & Gamble PSS World Medical Pyle Audio Qualcomm Quest One Radio Shack Ralph Loren RCA Reebok International Reynolds Aluminum Revlon Rohm & Hass Company Samsonite Samsung Sanyo Shell Oil Schwinn Bike Sears-Craftsman Seven-Eleven (7-11) Sharp Electronics Sherwin-Williams Shure Electronics Sony Speco Technologies/Pro Video Shopko Stores Skechers Footwear SmartHome Smucker's (see J.MSolar Power, Inc. Spencer Gifts Stanley Tools Staple's Starbucks Corporation Steelcase, Inc. STP Oil Sunkist Growers SunMaid Raisins Sunglass Hut Sunkist Subway Sandwiches Switchcraft Electronics SYSCO Foods Sylvania Electric 3-M Tai Pan Trading Company Tamron Optics Target TDK Tektronix, Inc Texas Instruments Timex Timken Bearing TNT Tommy Hilfiger Toro Toshiba Tower Automotive Toyota Toy's R Us, Inc. Trader Joe's Tripp-lite True Value Hardware Tupper Ware Tyson Foods Uniden Electronics UPS Valspar Corporation Victoria 's Secret Vizio Electronics Volkswagen VTech Walgreen Company Walt Disney Company Walmart WD-40 Corporation Weller Electric Company Western Digital Westinghouse Electric Weyerhaeuser Company Whirlpool Corporation Wilson Sporting Goods Wrigley WW Grainger, Inc. Wyeth Laboratories X-10 Xelite Xerox Yahoo Yamaha Yoplait Foods Yum Brands Zale Corporation

 

http://jiesworld.com/international_corporations_in_china.htm

China could not survive economically without the U.S. and the West.

On the other hand, the U.S. and the West could survive without China.  It might get a little more expensive for us for a little while....until we transitioned to countries like India and Indonesia.....and a myriad of other countries throughout Africa and South America.  It would be much easier for us to gradually break away our dependence on China than it would be for China to break their dependence on us.    

The market will drive how successful China is in the next 10-20 years.  In order for them to remain competitive with (more cost effective) newly developed manufacturing hubs, they will have a difficult time growing at the same rates that they have grown over the past 20 years.

The good news is that if China is doing good, that means the West is also doing "good" because we literally drive their economy.

 

As far as Iran goes, the U.S. hasn't wanted much to do with them since the Bush years.  If they get out of line every once in a while, things get taken care of without needing to go to full out war.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Qasem_Soleimani

I don't advocate for the killing of anyone but if it's done to avoid a possible war and to save lives, then it is what it is.

And I assure you, the U.S. isn't worried about their "tech".  Not to the extent of what you make it out to be.   The U.S. has the most technologically advanced military in the world and no other military comes close.

 

 

 

 

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Two things about this video:

1) Here's Trump voting by mail...

2) How big of an asshat does Billy Bush come across as?  While it's sad the "grab her by the pussy" video didn't doom Trump's career, at least it finished off this spineless asshole:

 

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2 hours ago, Ace Nova said:

China could not survive economically without the U.S. and the West.

On the other hand, the U.S. and the West could survive without China.  It might get a little more expensive for us for a little while....until we transitioned to countries like India and Indonesia.....and a myriad of other countries throughout Africa and South America.  It would be much easier for us to gradually break away our dependence on China than it would be for China to break their dependence on us.    

The market will drive how successful China is in the next 10-20 years.  In order for them to remain competitive with (more cost effective) newly developed manufacturing hubs, they will have a difficult time growing at the same rates that they have grown over the past 20 years.

The good news is that if China is doing good, that means the West is also doing "good" because we literally drive their economy.

 

As far as Iran goes, the U.S. hasn't wanted much to do with them since the Bush years.  If they get out of line every once in a while, things get taken care of without needing to go to full out war.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Qasem_Soleimani

I don't advocate for the killing of anyone but if it's done to avoid a possible war and to save lives, then it is what it is.

And I assure you, the U.S. isn't worried about their "tech".  Not to the extent of what you make it out to be.   The U.S. has the most technologically advanced military in the world and no other military comes close.

 

A lot of wishful thinking here with China. You are assuming the West (and not even just the entire US establishment) could all get on the same page and shift their supply chains away from China. I think the odds of a uniform pullout somewhere between slim and none. Not even Trump with all his bluster could manage to do much with the trade deficit with China. And China will not always be the cheap manufacturing hub. They are developing a highly advanced and diversified economy (with a growing middle class that will one day be a bigger consumer market than America has). And with their belt and road initiative they are putting massive money into infrastructure projects that will pay off down the road (and creating goodwill with it's partners). 

 

Hasn't wanted much to with Iran...were you asleep with Trump pulled out of the Iran deal and put further sanctions on them? You don't understand what I'm saying, I'm not saying that Iran would beat the US straight up, but they would cause enough damage that any "victory" the US achieved would be Pyrrhic (thus Iran's aims would be achieved because America would not be able to occupy). Americans will not put up with high casualties and any adversary of the US knows this. Iraq didn't near the ability that Iran (with Russia backing them) does in doing that.

Edited by Basic_GnR_Fan
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9 hours ago, Ace Nova said:

As far as Iran goes, the U.S. hasn't wanted much to do with them since the Bush years.  If they get out of line every once in a while, things get taken care of without needing to go to full out war.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Qasem_Soleimani

I don't advocate for the killing of anyone but if it's done to avoid a possible war and to save lives, then it is what it is.

And I assure you, the U.S. isn't worried about their "tech".  Not to the extent of what you make it out to be.   The U.S. has the most technologically advanced military in the world and no other military comes close.

During the Obama years, U.S. and Iran reached an agreement. The main issue was Iran's nuclear program. So the U.S. was very much involved when it comes to Iran

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While it's no secrete I don't hold Trump supporters in high regard, this forum will not accept advocating violence to any political supporters (well, with the exception of Naziis).  

 

Glorious...

 

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Why things look better for Biden when comparing polling from 2016:

skelley-CLINTON-BIDEN-STATES.0805-0804-1

skelley-CLINTON-BIDEN-STATES.0805-0804-2

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/biden-is-polling-better-than-clinton-at-her-peak/

"Clinton led in most national polls, but was typically garnering support only in the low- to mid-40s. Biden’s share has been hovering around 50 percent. As a result, some of the uncertainty about the trajectory of the Trump-Biden race might be reduced, in part because there are simply fewer voters who haven’t made up their minds and because signs point to fewer third-party voters than in 2016. Combined, Clinton and Trump had secured 84 percent of support, on average, in national polls in early August 2016. By comparison, Biden and Trump currently combine for 92 percent."

Again, anything can change.  But consider Hillary was far less popular/likeable than Biden is perceived to be, the country was just coming off eight years of Democratic control of the White House, and Trump has a lot to answer to regarding the pandemic, it makes it harder to believe that Biden will see a similar collapse in support that Clinton saw four years ago.  

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18 hours ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

A lot of wishful thinking here with China. You are assuming the West (and not even just the entire US establishment) could all get on the same page and shift their supply chains away from China. I think the odds of a uniform pullout somewhere between slim and none. Not even Trump with all his bluster could manage to do much with the trade deficit with China. And China will not always be the cheap manufacturing hub. They are developing a highly advanced and diversified economy (with a growing middle class that will one day be a bigger consumer market than America has). And with their belt and road initiative they are putting massive money into infrastructure projects that will pay off down the road (and creating goodwill with it's partners). 

 

Hasn't wanted much to with Iran...were you asleep with Trump pulled out of the Iran deal and put further sanctions on them? You don't understand what I'm saying, I'm not saying that Iran would beat the US straight up, but they would cause enough damage that any "victory" the US achieved would be Pyrrhic (thus Iran's aims would be achieved because America would not be able to occupy). Americans will not put up with high casualties and any adversary of the US knows this. Iraq didn't near the ability that Iran (with Russia backing them) does in doing that.

I don't think anyone has "intentions" to switch their manufacturing from China.  This isn't about "nationalism".  It's about what the free market can/will do in the future.

We were discussing "full out war" scenarios.  When I said, "The U.S. hasn't wanted much to do with Iran", it was in that regard. 

There wouldn't be that many casualties.  The days of massive ground force invasions are behind us, imo.  The majority of future warfare will be done by a pilot in Nevada, controlling a drone 10,000 miles away...and through covert, special ops missions.

 

 

10 hours ago, Padme said:

During the Obama years, U.S. and Iran reached an agreement. The main issue was Iran's nuclear program. So the U.S. was very much involved when it comes to Iran

Right.

We were discussing "full out war" scenarios.  When I said, "The U.S. hasn't wanted much to do with Iran", it was in that regard. 

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3 hours ago, downzy said:

While it's no secrete I don't hold Trump supporters in high regard, this forum will not accept advocating violence to any political supporters (well, with the exception of Naziis).  

 

Glorious...

 

Meanwhile, at the DNC basement...

 

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1 hour ago, Ace Nova said:

I don't think anyone has "intentions" to switch their manufacturing from China.  This isn't about "nationalism".  It's about what the free market can/will do in the future.

We were discussing "full out war" scenarios.  When I said, "The U.S. hasn't wanted much to do with Iran", it was in that regard. 

There wouldn't be that many casualties.  The days of massive ground force invasions are behind us, imo.  The majority of future warfare will be done by a pilot in Nevada, controlling a drone 10,000 miles away...and through covert, special ops missions.

 

It's more nuanced than that though. Every economy is planned to a certain extent. In China the economy is planned by a central committee of nationalists, in the US, the economy is planned (albeit to a different extent) by billionaires and industries who can lobby the government (they decide which candidates get funded by big dollars but also own media conglomerates, think tanks, and NGO's). For the Chinese government it's all about nationalism and what's good for China in the long term. They think generationally. They will also not make decisions based on economic theories if they don't see a benefit for their nation. They learned from the Soviets though and are not as dogmatic, they will use market principles when they see fit. In the US, the oligarch's will lobby the government to enrich themselves and manipulate policies such as trade, tax, and regulatory policies. So they are basing their decisions on economic theories, but on a micro level as for what's good for themselves, and not the nation as a whole. The oligarch's will not move their production back to America because that doesn't make economic sense for them. Yes they may move more to India, Vietnam, Thailand, Africa, etc...but that transition would fully take decades.

While both systems have their flaws, if I were a betting man, long term I'm betting on the nation run by hardcore nationalists over the nation run by oligarch's. What incentive do oligarch's have in the long term viability of a country? They can just move on to another nation and plunder that. 

I should also state that the decision to open up China wasn't just a market decision, it was primarily a political decision to split the Soviet Union and China. The US establishment thought China was eventually going to become another liberal democracy, but they had other ideas of their own!

Regarding Iran, you can't overthrow a regime like Iran's with drones and special ops. For such an undertaking, you'll need some boots on the ground as well as heavy funding of proxy forces. Someone physically has to take territory and hold it, drones can't do that, they can only provide support for the physical forces that do the occupying. The US failed in Syria (whose government was on shakier ground than Iran's is). So I wouldn't give them much of a chance of regime change in Iran.

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8 minutes ago, Silent Jay said:

Looking forward to the Durham report.

 

Fingers crossed its written in words of two syllables or less for you eh? 

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