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1 minute ago, soon said:

Its a heavy issue, man. And that's why we all need to take it seriously and discuss it honestly.

Calling it genocide is incorrect, as genocide is when an entire group of people are targeted. Unless you're getting into conspiracy theory territory, it weakens your position to mislabel abortion this way. Because in today's Murica, not all unborn babies are targeted for abortion.

"Decimating the unborn population" might be far more accurate and still carries the intended weight.

I can agree with you here, so I won't refer it to genocide anymore in this thread.

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Donald Trump just grabbed America by the pussy

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Just now, Iron MikeyJ said:

I don't claim to be a member of any political party, nor do I defend ignorance when it comes to things like evolution. 

So how do you defend ignorance in pretty much everything else in your defense of the man who looked at an eclipse? 

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With abortion, you either feel disgusted by it or you don't. I personally feel no problem with it at all. To me, it's a blob of cells, I could not give any less of a shit about it. But I understand that there are some who feel disgusted to their bones at the thought of it and I can't really quarrel with that, it's innate.

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5 minutes ago, Dazey said:

So how do you defend ignorance in pretty much everything else in your defense of the man who looked at an eclipse? 

I never claimed to be a MAGA hat wearing Trump supporter did I? I have some serious issues with him as well, I also disagree with many of his policies. Having said that, he has made some big steps in the right direction towards defunding/ eliminating Planned Parenthood. He has done more for this cause than any president has since I've been able to vote (since 2000). 

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11 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Human DNA means without a SHADOW of a doubt you are a human being.

Sorry, I don't mean to be cynical, but were you not aware of this fact in 2000, 2008, 2012, and 2016?

12 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

The left likes to use social science to defend abortion, but the REAL sciences, biology, chemistry, etc CLEARLY say differently. 

So does that mean you are against abortions in the case of severe health issues/deformities that would render the child incapable of living beyond a very short period of time?  What about fetuses conceived through rape?

14 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

So when a person (the mother) decides her life is MORE important than that of her unborn child, she has put more value on her life than that of another's.

We make these evaluations all the time.  To claim it is limited to the matter of conception and a fetus is to ignore all the areas where we all make conscious and unconscious judgements about putting more value on one life over another.

16 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Think of it like this, if two people are stranded on a desserted island, and they only have enough food for one to survive, is killing the other person a reasonable option? If you feel it is, then we fundamentally disagree on the value of human life.

So then I can assume that the mother should not be allowed to terminate a pregnancy if it threatens her life, even if there is no chance of survival of the fetus.

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9 minutes ago, Jakey Styley said:

With abortion, you either feel disgusted by it or you don't. I personally feel no problem with it at all. To me, it's a blob of cells, I could not give any less of a shit about it. But I understand that there are some who feel disgusted to their bones at the thought of it and I can't really quarrel with that, it's innate.

This is basically how I used to feel. The more I learned about the issue, the more my stance changed.

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17 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

I never claimed to be a MAGA hat wearing Trump supporter did I? I have some serious issues with him as well, I also disagree with many of his policies. Having said that, he has made some big steps in the right direction towards defunding/ eliminating Planned Parenthood. He has done more for this cause than any president has since I've been able to vote (since 2000). 

And you wonder why criticism of you always comes back to your slavish devotion to your poisonous religion? :lol:  

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20 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I cannot believe somebody exists that holds views as abhorrent as, you have to be either an ''asshole, an idiot, a racist, or a multi-millionaire'' to vote for somebody that you personally disagree with. Cannot believe you even have the nerve to suggest somebody is a ''racist'' whilst holding such contempt for two-way party democracy. 

I can't believe someone of sound, rational mind would vote for Trump.  

I don't hold contempt for a two-party democracy.  I hold contempt for thinking the choice facing American voters is a choice at all.  I would have much preferred someone else running as the Republican nominee (as do many other Republicans). 

 

20 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

You feel the genocide of hundreds of thousands every year is not a big deal?

You're using genocide wrong.

If it were genocide then all babies would be aborted.  

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9 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Having said that, he has made some big steps in the right direction towards defunding/ eliminating Planned Parenthood.

You do realize that even if Planned Parenthood closed shop and abortions were banned outright, you would still have millions of abortions every year?

Outlawing abortion doesn't make abortion go away.  It just means only poor people who become pregnant are forced to carry the fetus to term.  Rich and connected people will always have access to abortion.  

11 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

He has done more for this cause than any president has since I've been able to vote (since 2000).

How so?  What specifically has Trump done to outlaw abortion?  

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1 minute ago, downzy said:

I can't believe someone of sound, rational mind would vote for Trump.  

I don't hold contempt for a two-party democracy.  I hold contempt for thinking the choice facing American voters is a choice at all.  I would have much preferred someone else running as the Republican nominee (as do many other Republicans). 

Can you not countenance the idea that maybe - just maybe - somebody could vote Trump simply because they believed in what he stood for? There are plenty of leaders who I couldn't stand in our elections over the years - sometimes both main leaders at one time! - but I wouldn't regard all their voters as ''assholes'' or ''idiots'' or ''racists'' - indeed, I have friends across the political spectrum, so how could I? 

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3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Can you not countenance the idea that maybe - just maybe - somebody could vote Trump simply because they believed in what he stood for? 

What does he stand for?

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1 minute ago, downzy said:

Sorry, I don't mean to be cynical, but were you not aware of this fact in 2000, 2008, 2012, and 2016?

So does that mean you are against abortions in the case of severe health issues/deformities that would render the child incapable of living beyond a very short period of time?  What about fetuses conceived through rape?

We make these evaluations all the time.  To claim it is limited to the matter of conception and a fetus is to ignore all the areas where we all make conscious and unconscious judgements about putting more value on one life over another.

So then I can assume that the mother should not be allowed to terminate a pregnancy if it threatens her life, even if there is no chance of survival of the fetus.

A TON to unpack here... I'll answer them point by point. 

Was I aware of this in 2016 and earlier? Yes and no. I mean I was aware of abortion, but it wasn't an issue I really ever spent much time thinking about. I didn't like the idea of it, but I also didn't like the idea of telling a women what to do or not do. So I just kinda avoided it. 

As for the child having severe issues, no an abortion is not the correct answer. You are not doing the child any favors by ending it's life. I have a child with cerebral palsey, is blind, epilepsy, and the mental capabilities of a two month old. The doctors DID recommend her life be terminated, and that would of been a HUGE mistake. Would my and my wife's life have been "easier" without her? You might be able to make that argument. But it's also not our choice to make (life and death). How do you decide what other human doesn't deserve the right to live? Because it would be easier for you?

As for rape, I DO support the morning after pill to prevent the pregnancy from happing in the first place. But it HAS to be within 24 hours. After a positive pregnancy has taken place, I don't support any forms of termination. I understand and sympathize with the rape victim, but how does the death of the innocent child help matters? I understand the women didn't ask for this and doesn't want it, but neither did the child. The child is innocent as well. I feel adaption is the appropriate answer here. Let me also add, these extremes are the SMALL minority of abortions. The cast majority of abortions are a final form of contraceptive. 

As for your next point, just because humans tend to be selfish and self centric doesn't make it right. If that's the case, then the plantation owners were justified. They were just doing "what's best for me." 

As for your final point in regards to the mother. If the mothers life could be threatened by the pregnancy than I support the doctor doing whatever it takes to save the mothers life. If the child is lost as a secondary result, as unfortunate as that is, it is what it is. It's all about motivation. If by trying to save the mothers life, it costs the life of the child, then it's an unfortunate set of circumstances. But it HAS to be in order to save the mothers life. Babies die everyday in child birth, it's an unfortunate fact of life, this is really no different. Think of it like a secondary result. If your primary goal is to terminate the pregnancy, that's wrong. But if a secondary results end with the loss of the child, it's unfortunate, but not wrong. 

I have to go, I'll try and continue this later.

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49 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Science for starters. Human DNA means without a SHADOW of a doubt you are a human being. 

But it doesn't. If I order some human DNA synthesized to me from Genscript, as we do, that Eppendorf tube is not a human being. And if I clone the DNA into an E. coli cell, and I am likely to, that bacterium is not now partly human. Because a human being is more than its genetics, more than its DNA and genes. It is the concerted expression of thousands of genes resulting in the amazingly complex interplay of millions of proteins, sugars, lipids and other molecules that constitutes the differentiated tissues of a developed fetus, that is a human being. And this isn't the case for DNA in a tube, some genes in a bug, a sperm cell on a rug, a fertilised egg, or a zygote in early development. 

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1 hour ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

I would say black slaves had it the worst, in agreement there.

Just black slaves?  What about those who lived under Jim Crowe, that in many ways were actually materially worse for black Americans than those who lived during the slave period.

1 hour ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Other immigrant groups had it rough, but not quite as bad as black slaves, and some of those immigrant communities outperform whites, and some don't. It is interesting discussion in and of itself to analyze why pre 65 east asians outperformed latino/mestizo populations.

But it's not just a matter of having it rough, but whether there was systemic barriers put in place that were geared specifically to black Americans.  We can turn to the internment of Asian Americans during WW2 as some of the worst treatment any racial minority in the 20th century.  But the abuse and discrimination did not fall into decades old systems that were later manifested through different forms of social control.  As the documentation I provided earlier makes clear, much of the advances that most visible minorities made post WW2 came as a result of efforts to reduce discrimination particular to those groups.  The racism perpetrated on black Americans has been far more systemic and intrinsic in American political life than say, racism that minorities from India faced.

As for pre-asian communities, again, much of that can be explained through those communities commercial ties to their native countries.  

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30 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Trump simply because they believed in what he stood for?

And what does he stand for?  Does any of it hold up to scrutiny?  Or is all of it just absurd bullshit; the raving cries of  entitled white assholes who are pissed that the country is a little less white than it use to be.

31 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

There are plenty of leaders who I couldn't stand in our elections over the years - sometimes both main leaders at one time! - but I wouldn't regard all their voters as ''assholes'' or ''idiots'' or ''racists'' - indeed, I have friends across the political spectrum, so how could I? 

And none of those leaders come anywhere close to the dumpster fire that is Trump.  Please provide an example of any leader that bares any resemblance to the insincerity of Trump and Trumpism.  There are many detestable political leaders, but none that have peddled the politics of contempt to anything comparable to Trump's brand of political nihilism.  

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2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

I personally don't think Biden is a good candidate, but he is still many fold better than Trump. What this really says, though, is how far the Americans have fallen. Trump or Biden. Jeez. 

Yup

1 hour ago, downzy said:

Why can't it be enough to support Biden solely because he's not Trump?

Yup, I can not be enthusiastic on Biden and still vote for him squarely because he isn't Trump. In fact, that is what I am going to do. Trump is a dangerous, deranged fool. I would vote for almost anyone else and of course that is enough. 

1 hour ago, downzy said:

were back in March/April and where they are now.  Her public approval rating has also gone up.  Over 60 percent of people living in Michigan have approved her handling of the pandemic.  

Now compare that to the approval ratings of southern states where governors dismissed the science and re-opened too quickly?  

I will surely vote for Whitmer, again. I now see how directly elections influence my own livelihood. With someone else as Governor, my state could be in a very different place right now regarding the virus. 

1 hour ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

For me, do I like Trump? No, not really and I didn't vote for him in 2016. Do I dislike Biden? No, but I don't like him either. 

What it comes down to (for me anyways) is Trump puts his cards on the table. Agree with him, disagree with him, it's easy to see where he stands. Biden is a more "typical" politician, what he says and the things he would try to accomplish in office are not always the same. 

Having said that, this is not my main reason for voting for Trump this year. I don't agree with all of Trumps/rights policies nor do I disagree with all of Bidens/the lefts. I have one major issue that is a deal breaker for me, one issue that I can not budge on, and Trump and the right are correct on this one issue, while the left is VERY wrong. 

The "cards on the table" thing makes zero sense. He can barely form sentences, what are you talking about? He spews whatever bullshit comes to his head to make himself look better (which usually fails horribly). How about that clip a few pages back where he straight up says science is wrong? You would rather have some imbecile who spews utterly false and dangerous garbage in charge?

1 hour ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

I do agree that Trump didn't handle things as good as I would have liked. Having said that, I can't say for certain that the Dems would have done a bang up job either, that's purely speculation. 

As for my governor, as a whole I would say she has done a pretty good job with the virus. But she didn't start out that way, she played "follow the leader" with other states response for the first handful of months. 

She has also gone over board with her executive orders, which will most likely cost her the next election. She wasn't picked for VP because the state isn't all that happy with her. Her being on the big ticket couldn't guarantee Biden a win in MI, that's pretty telling don't you think. 

Having said all of that, I hold her to the same expectations I just started for Trump. I can't say "she did terrible" or "she did great." These are such unique circumstances that yes mistakes will be made, they are human beings after all. Would I give Whitmer a higher grade for handling the pandemic then Trump? Yes, most likely. But not by much, Trump did send my family $3000. I can't forget that. 

Whitmer is doing great, that is not debatable. Her decisions are based on what experts say and are directly saving lives 

1 hour ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Abortion, all other issues are a DISTANT 2nd imo

So what about the allegations that ICE is forcing hysterectomies on detainees right now? 

1 hour ago, downzy said:

Because no one with common sense is voting for Trump.

If you're voting for Trump in 2020, you're either an asshole, an idiot, a racist, or a multi-millionaire (in which case his tax cuts have helped you tremendously).  

 

This is a factual statement, well said

26 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Can you not countenance the idea that maybe - just maybe - somebody could vote Trump simply because they believed in what he stood for? There are plenty of leaders who I couldn't stand in our elections over the years - sometimes both main leaders at one time! - but I wouldn't regard all their voters as ''assholes'' or ''idiots'' or ''racists'' - indeed, I have friends across the political spectrum, so how could I? 

Then they stand for garbage, and Downzy's point still stands

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26 minutes ago, Dazey said:

What does he stand for?

You don't know? You spend a lot of time talking about him! I am no expert on the man but I would suggest politics aligned with the right (republican) spectrum of American politics, conservatism, protectionism, low-taxation, rigorous on migration, support of NRA, anti-abortion.

1 minute ago, ZoSoRose said:

Then they stand for garbage, and Downzy's point still stands

So are you friends with, or could you be friends with, Trump voters? They would after all be either ''assholes, idiots or racists'' by downzy's criteria! 

4 minutes ago, downzy said:

And none of those leaders come anywhere close to the dumpster fire that is Trump.  Please provide an example of any leader that bares any resemblance to the insincerity of Trump and Trumpism.  There are many detestable political leaders, but none that have peddled the politics of contempt to anything comparable to Trump's brand of political nihilism.  

Absolute hyperbole. Heck, I can think of American presidents that have been worse than Donald Trump, but broadening the field internationally opens up an infinite array of candidates!

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1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

You don't know? You spend a lot of time talking about him! I am no expert on the man but I would suggest politics aligned with the right (republican) spectrum of American politics, conservatism, protectionism, low-taxation, rigorous on migration, support of NRA, anti-abortion.

So a lot of terrible policies in summary. 

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2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

So are you friends with, or could you be friends with, Trump voters? They would after all be either ''assholes, idiots or racists'' by downzy's criteria! 

 

Yes, that is correct

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12 minutes ago, downzy said:

Just black slaves?  What about those who lived under Jim Crowe, that in many ways were actually materially worse for black Americans than those who lived during the slave period.

But it's not just a matter of having it rough, but whether there was systemic barriers put in place that were geared specifically to black Americans.  We can turn to the internment of Asian Americans during WW2 as some of the worst treatment any racial minority in the 20th century.  But the abuse and discrimination did not fall into decades old systems that were later manifested through different forms of social control.  As the documentation I provided earlier makes clear, much of the advances that most visible minorities made post WW2 came as a result of efforts to reduce discrimination particular to those groups.  The racism perpetrated on black Americans has been far more systemic and intrinsic in American political life than say, racism that minorities from India faced.

As for pre-asian communities, again, much of that can be explained through those communities commercial ties to their native countries.  

Would the blacks under Jim Crow really be that different than pre 65 asians? I mean, they were segregated and weren't able to join regular institutions. That's a question that deserves some more material investigation.

The chinese for instance, came as dirt poor railroad workers, from a very poor country. I'm not sure what kind of material assistance they really got from the motherland.

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1 minute ago, Dazey said:

So a lot of terrible policies in summary. 

In your opinion. There is also another opinion in existence. Thus is two-way party politics. Somebody holding contrary opinions does not make them an ''asshole'', ''idiot'' or a ''racist''. You could forcefully argue they are ''incorrect'' and that would be your prerogative. 

2 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

Yes, that is correct

Well that is quite a shocking position to hold. I am happy to say that I have friends of opposing political views. 

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Just now, DieselDaisy said:

Well that is quite a shocking position to hold. I am happy to say that I have friends of opposing political views. 

I would say it is well beyond "opposing political views" at this point

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2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Well that is quite a shocking position to hold. I am happy to say that I have friends of opposing political views. 

One of my very best friends is a hardcore Brexiter and loves Trump. I wake up most mornings to "Sleepy Joe's a Pedo" Whatsapp messages. 

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4 minutes ago, Dazey said:

One of my very best friends is a hardcore Brexiter and loves Trump. I wake up most mornings to "Sleepy Joe's a Pedo" Whatsapp messages. 

I like him already.

I sit next to a guy at the cricket who supports the SNP. I am friends with a remain voter (although wouldn't say he is an outright remoaning wokey Guardianist like yourself). And you know I live in a Labour heartland - well, hitherto - and loath Labour. 

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1 hour ago, Jakey Styley said:

With abortion, you either feel disgusted by it or you don't. I personally feel no problem with it at all. To me, it's a blob of cells, I could not give any less of a shit about it. But I understand that there are some who feel disgusted to their bones at the thought of it and I can't really quarrel with that, it's innate.

It never bothered me until I had children.  It's disgusting.

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