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5 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I like him already.

I sit next to a guy at the cricket who supports the SNP. I am friends with a remain voter (although wouldn't say he is an outright remoaning wokey Guardianist like yourself). And you know I live in a Labour heartland - well, hitherto - and loath Labour. 

So this is a tiny snippet of our exchanges. :lol: 

FdBPWbu.jpg 

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Donald Trump just grabbed America by the pussy

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5 minutes ago, Swampfox said:

Next time you're in New Jersey let's have a beer 🍻

I'd absolutely take you up on that. I've only ever been to Ocean City in New Jersey and that was 20 years ago when I was a Camp Councillor in Pennsylvania in summer 2000.  

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41 minutes ago, Dazey said:

I'd absolutely take you up on that. I've only ever been to Ocean City in New Jersey and that was 20 years ago when I was a Camp Councillor in Pennsylvania in summer 2000.  

My fridge is always stocked.

36 minutes ago, soon said:

When someone invites me to New Jersey I just look at them like their an idiot until they suggest New York instead.

The fucking smell, man!

Don't worry pal, I wouldn't think to invite you anyway.  

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4 hours ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

Would the blacks under Jim Crow really be that different than pre 65 asians?

Absolutely.

Understand that most immigration from Asia pre 1965 was severely curtailed by the late 1800s.  America basically shut out all Chinese migration with the 1882 immigration ban and later broadened the exclusions to Japanese and other asian nations by the early 1900s.

Asian migrants prior to these exclusionary largely settled in the western coast.  They benefited from the California gold rush and later the Civil War, as factories and suppliers in the west supplied armies in the east.  

This isn't to say that life was easy or kind to early Asian settlers.  But they largely arrived in America in a position to take advantage of labour shortages and resource booms that were not available to the black population that lived largely in America's South East regions.  

4 hours ago, Basic_GnR_Fan said:

The chinese for instance, came as dirt poor railroad workers, from a very poor country. I'm not sure what kind of material assistance they really got from the motherland.

I was speaking more about Japanese merchants who created supply lines to Japan.  

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4 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

I am no expert on the man but I would suggest politics aligned with the right (republican) spectrum of American politics, conservatism, protectionism, low-taxation, rigorous on migration, support of NRA, anti-abortion.

Trump is not a conservative.  He's changed his views on guns and abortion for political expediency.  He has a long record of hiring undocumented workers at his resorts.  

Conservatism in the US has long held the mantra of limited government, personal responsibility, a strong belief in federalism with emphasis on local governance.  None of that can describe Trump's first term as President.  The government today is larger than it was in 2016.  Trump takes zero responsibility for anything.  His administration has trampled on state and local government on matters such as healthcare, car gas consumption, law enforcement, education, etc.  

If Trump was popular and supported because of allegiance to conservative dogma, how did win the 2016 primary when far more authentic conservatives ran for the nomination? 

This notion that Trump is supported because he's a conservative either misreads American conservatism or Trump himself.  

5 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Absolute hyperbole. Heck, I can think of American presidents that have been worse than Donald Trump, but broadening the field internationally opens up an infinite array of candidates!

So you can provide one contemporary political leader who is as deplorable as Donald Trump.  I am specifically speaking about the nihilism that is at the core of Trump and Trumpism.  It's nothing more than grievance politics.  

5 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

You could forcefully argue they are ''incorrect'' and that would be your prerogative. 

You could, but you would be wrong.  

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4 hours ago, Swampfox said:

Anyone else excited for the debates?

Sure am.

I really find this strategy by Trump and his supporters strange. 

They seem to be doing Biden a favour by lowering expectations.   If Biden gets through the debates without going through a dementia breakdown he'll be declared the winner.  

This strategy also ignores that Biden held his own in the primary debates.  He wasn't the best debater nor can I honestly say he was great, but he did well enough that more Democrats voted for him.  You would think that if Biden were to collapse on a debate stage we would have seen it in the 11-13 debates he participated in (I can't recall if Biden participated in all 13 debates).  

Contrast that to Trump.  His ABC Town Hall was a train wreck.  Anytime he holds a press conference he walks off whenever he gets a tough question.  He won't be able to walk off the debate stage if he finds the questions too difficult to answer. 

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5 minutes ago, downzy said:

Trump is not a conservative.  He's changed his views on guns and abortion for political expediency.  He has a long record of hiring undocumented workers at his resorts.  

Conservatism in the US has long held the mantra of limited government, personal responsibility, a strong belief in federalism with emphasis on local governance.  None of that can describe Trump's first term as President.  The government today is larger than it was in 2016.  Trump takes zero responsibility for anything.  His administration has trampled on state and local government on matters such as healthcare, car gas consumption, law enforcement, education, etc.  

If Trump was popular and supported because of allegiance to conservative dogma, how did win the 2016 primary when far more authentic conservatives ran for the nomination? 

This notion that Trump is supported because he's a conservative either misreads American conservatism or Trump himself.  

Are you arguing that he is a liberal then, or that rare creature for an American, a socialist?

9 minutes ago, downzy said:

So you can provide one contemporary political leader who is as deplorable as Donald Trump.  I am specifically speaking about the nihilism that is at the core of Trump and Trumpism.  It's nothing more than grievance politics.  

You could, but you would be wrong.  

This guy has sent you into the bowels of derangement! By all means dislike the guy. By all means even hate him if that makes you feel good. But christ, take a look at how you're speaking here as it is utterly mental. You don't even live in his country for crying out loud! How does his being president of a different country from the one in which you live in detrimentally effect your personal existence to this extent, that it would provoke this reaction?

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10 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Are you arguing that he is a liberal then, or that rare creature for an American, a socialist?

No.  Trump is a political nihilist.  He doesn't have a political ideology.  His only principle is one of self-serving.  

 

12 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

This guy has sent you into the bowels of derangement! By all means dislike the guy. By all means even hate him if that makes you feel good. But christ, take a look at how you're speaking here as it is utterly mental. You don't even live in his country for crying out loud! How does his being president of a different country from the one in which you live in detrimentally effect your personal existence to this extent, that it would provoke this reaction?

I think it's funny how you won't answer the question, despite my asking twice. 

Instead, in an effort to avoid having a legitimate discussion in which you must defend your defenceless nonsense, you shift the discussion to my own personal ties to the subject.  I'll answer your questions, but understand you're only asking it because you are unwilling or incapable of defending qualifying statements that you yourself have made.

As someone who has studied history, I would think you of all people know and understands what happens when nations that underpin the current global order are inflicted by deranged and unfit leadership.  As a fan of the current global order that has kept the large militaries from clashing with one another, I have a huge problem when the current indispensable nation is run by a mad man.  By if you've been reading my posts, my issue is isn't Trump per se, but what Trump has come to represent and the dangers of those dynamics as it relates to global order and security.  Trump is the symptom and the accelerant of what ails the current global economic, military, and cultural hegemon.  It is a nation the rest of the world needs to get its affairs in order should we face a global realignment (that are almost always precipitated through armed military conflict).  This is to say nothing about the profound effects of America's unwillingness to do anything about the climate challenge this world faces and how that will affect both my child's life and hopefully my possible grand children's ability to live without environmental calamity.  What I find amazing is how you and other's don't care.  How cynical must one be to simply say, "not my country, not my problem."  And on a personal level, most of my business is with American clients.  I won't get into too much personal detail but Trump's leadership has affected me economically.  But honestly, even if I had zero business with America I would still feel the same.  

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1 hour ago, downzy said:

No.  Trump is a political nihilist.  He doesn't have a political ideology.  His only principle is one of self-serving.  

 

I think it's funny how you won't answer the question, despite my asking twice. 

Instead, in an effort to avoid having a legitimate discussion in which you must defend your defenceless nonsense, you shift the discussion to my own personal ties to the subject.  I'll answer your questions, but understand you're only asking it because you are unwilling or incapable of defending qualifying statements that you yourself have made.

As someone who has studied history, I would think you of all people know and understands what happens when nations that underpin the current global order are inflicted by deranged and unfit leadership.  As a fan of the current global order that has kept the large militaries from clashing with one another, I have a huge problem when the current indispensable nation is run by a mad man.  By if you've been reading my posts, my issue is isn't Trump per se, but what Trump has come to represent and the dangers of those dynamics as it relates to global order and security.  Trump is the symptom and the accelerant of what ails the current global economic, military, and cultural hegemon.  It is a nation the rest of the world needs to get its affairs in order should we face a global realignment (that are almost always precipitated through armed military conflict).  This is to say nothing about the profound effects of America's unwillingness to do anything about the climate challenge this world faces and how that will affect both my child's life and hopefully my possible grand children's ability to live without environmental calamity.  What I find amazing is how you and other's don't care.  How cynical must one be to simply say, "not my country, not my problem."  And on a personal level, most of my business is with American clients.  I won't get into too much personal detail but Trump's leadership has affected me economically.  But honestly, even if I had zero business with America I would still feel the same.  

I will respond further, but my initial reply is that you lack a sense of proportion, and also do not have a tremendous amount of respect for the freedom of Americans to decide their own leader. You need to just step back a bit. Some of your ravings are utterly mental - you always sound like you are going to burst a blood vessel whenever Trump is cited. I half feel I need to call an ambulance. I disliked Corbyn but I also went to the pub and did a spot of fishing - I certainly didn't call his electorate ''assholes and idiots''. 

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Just now, DieselDaisy said:

you lack a sense of proportion

Says the guy who calls any BLM supporter scum.

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

and also do not have a tremendous amount of respect for the freedom of Americans to decide their own leader.

I have little respect for the American people to decide their own leader, born out by the fact that they elected Trump as their President.  I'll always respect their freedom to do so (well, let's see what happens when Trump contests the results in November).  But It really isn't or shouldn't be a choice at all between Biden and Trump.  Anyone who actually thinks its a choice is too far gone.

3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I disliked Corbyn but I also went to the pub and did a spot of fishing - I certainly didn't call his electorate ''assholes and idiots''. 

That's because they are not.  To compare Corbyn voters with Trump voters is ludicrous and you know this.  Whether you agree or disagree with Corbyn's policy positions, at least they were prescriptive, sincere, and not rooted in resentment and contempt for political adversaries.  Do you honestly think that liberals or progressives who support policy efforts to combat climate change do so to stick it to their political opponents?  Are Democrats supportive of universal healthcare coverage via a public option or Medicare for All speaking to fuck Republicans.  Trumpism is an anathema to anything their political opposition supports.  It's all about "owning the libs."  You yourself claimed only a week or two ago that you wanted Trump to win because you wanted to see liberals cry.  I mean, the depraved cynicism and pettiness of such a statement (that is very well shared amongst many of Trump supporters) is astonishing.  What sends me over the edge isn't Trump.  It's the callousness and inhumanity that forms as the foundation of his political and cultural support.  

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Just now, downzy said:

Says the guy who calls any BLM supporter scum.

Did I call them ''scum''? I am not sure I did but I stand to be corrected? I certainly believe that the many BLM people who are trashing businesses and intimidating innocent bystanders are ''scum'' and make no apologies for saying so.  

3 minutes ago, downzy said:

That's because they are not.  To compare Corbyn voters with Trump voters is ludicrous and you know this.  Whether you agree or disagree with Corbyn's policy positions, at least they were prescriptive, sincere, and not rooted in resentment and contempt for political adversaries.  Do you honestly think that liberals or progressives who support policy efforts to combat climate change do so to stick it to their political opponents?  Are Democrats supportive of universal healthcare coverage via a public option or Medicare for All speaking to fuck Republicans.  Trumpism is an anathema to anything their political opposition supports.  It's all about "owning the libs."  You yourself claimed only a week or two ago that you wanted Trump to win because you wanted to see liberals cry.  I mean, the depraved cynicism and pettiness of such a statement (that is very well shared amongst many of Trump supporters) is astonishing.  What sends me over the edge isn't Trump.  It's the callousness and inhumanity that forms as the foundation of his political and cultural support.  

You - and I could put this in a more unkind way but I will be polite (for once) - also do not understand my sense of humour. Let's just say I am a cynic on politics and leave it at that?

I actually couldn't give a monkeys who wins. It is up to Americans to decide their leader and I will respect the decision either way. It is their election. I might discuss and criticise (I've criticised Trump many times) but ultimately there is a time when it becomes their thing, and I become merely just another wanker in a completely different country telling them 'who they should and should not' vote for? You need to be able to judge when to step back. Excise some decorum. 

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37 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Did I call them ''scum''? I am not sure I did but I stand to be corrected?

 

38 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It is up to Americans to decide their leader and I will respect the decision either way.

On this matter you and I are in agreement.  If Trump wins re-election (fairly) then so be it.  That's who America is now.  I'll give them a mulligan for 2016 since I assume some didn't realize what a Trump presidency would look like, but they don't get a pass should they vote him in a second time.  

 

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8 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

As for the child having severe issues, no an abortion is not the correct answer. You are not doing the child any favors by ending it's life. I have a child with cerebral palsey, is blind, epilepsy, and the mental capabilities of a two month old. The doctors DID recommend her life be terminated, and that would of been a HUGE mistake. Would my and my wife's life have been "easier" without her? You might be able to make that argument. But it's also not our choice to make (life and death). How do you decide what other human doesn't deserve the right to live? Because it would be easier for you?

I think it's an extremely admirable thing you and your wife did.  I don't think many, including myself, could make the same choice.  And yes, I view it as a choice.  It's not simply a matter of it being easy for the parents, but for some not wanting a child/person to live in extreme discomfort or duress.  There are instances where a fetus has severe chromosomal abnormalities that usually result in death late into the pregnancy or a short, painful life days after labour.  We often say that the most humane thing to do for pets with little to no quality of life anymore is to put them down.  For some, the compassion we show our pets should be extended to fetuses not long for this world.  

The other matter revolves around whether your values or choice on this matter should supersede the choice of other would be parents.  You and your wife may have made the choice that was inline with your values, but why should you impose your values on others who might see things differently?  

8 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

As for rape, I DO support the morning after pill to prevent the pregnancy from happing in the first place. But it HAS to be within 24 hours. After a positive pregnancy has taken place, I don't support any forms of termination. I understand and sympathize with the rape victim, but how does the death of the innocent child help matters? I understand the women didn't ask for this and doesn't want it, but neither did the child. The child is innocent as well.

Why does the child have rights to exist if the mother is unable to obtain the morning after pill within a 24 hour time frame?  That seems extremely arbitrary.  How does the forcibly fertilized egg have no rights for the first 24 hours?

Moreover, why should the mother have to be re-traumatized every time they look at their child produced by rape?  

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10 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Science for starters. Human DNA means without a SHADOW of a doubt you are a human being. Just because a human is in a different state of development (the womb) does not mean it is NOT a human being.

I must also comment on this statement that science supports a particular stance on abortion. It doesn't. Science tells us what happens, it is descriptive, not what we should do about it. Science tells us when a heart starts beating, when the lungs fill with air for the first time, what genes are expressed first in the fertilized egg, when the fetus develops arms, how the body form develops, when the brain starts forming, etc. But it doesn't tell us when a fetus has become so much like a human being that it should be granted human rights (i.e when abortion turns to murder). That is a question more for philosophers or doctors or politicians. And as long as "human being" isn't precisely defined, or the definition is contested, we will never agree on when abortion is okay.

I don't personally have a good answer on abortion and when it should be okay. I definitely don't have a problem with terminating fertilized eggs and I definitely have a problem with killing babies, so somewhere inbetween here, somewhere in these nine months of gestation, abortion goes from being okay to being not okay in my opinion.

Additionally, it is not a distinct switch from "okay" to "not okay". The fetus gradually develops into a human being, so it is a continuum more than a binary thing. This means, of course, that the time when abortion is okay should be pushed well into the "okay" range to be sure. 

And all of this of course relies on the premise that as soon as a fetus develops sufficient similarities to a human being, in terms of shape and cognitive abilities, etc, it is a human being and thus deserving of the same protections as other human beings. The religious idea that the fertilized egg is a human being simply because it contains human DNA or because it has the potential to become a human being, is nonsensical to me. If any lump of cells with human DNA should be sacred we are committing murder every time we remove a mole, blast a tumor with radiation, or wank off. And the reason human beings have special protection is because human beings are different from anything else, thus granting those same rights to something that can potentially develop into a human being, is just diluting the uniqueness of human beings and the special rights we have. It is akin to valuing the parts that make up a car equally high as the developed car itself, basically dismissing the value of actually building the car and the synergy of all these parts working together.

Lastly, we shouldn't dismiss the feelings involved when it comes to terminating a fetus (yes, it isn't a case of "killing an unborn baby" because a "baby" is the name a fetus gets when it is born and "killing" isn't a term for destroying lumps of cells not considered to be separate living entities - so "killing an unborn baby" is deliberate corruption of language to appeal to emotions), both in the could-be-mother and could-be-father. Feelings starts developing as soon as a woman is pregnant and abortion is rarely a trifling matter. This should inform our discourse when discussing abortion, and also be an argument when discussing when abortion is okay - if we accept too late abortion that can lead to more sorrow.

 

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The abortion thing is one of those archaic issues that was supposedly resolved decades ago, but old men in power with outdated idealogy want to go backwards on it. 

It's said a lot, but it speaks volumes that the majority of these men could not care less about what happens after birth. 

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8 hours ago, downzy said:

 

On this matter you and I are in agreement.  If Trump wins re-election (fairly) then so be it.  That's who America is now.  I'll give them a mulligan for 2016 since I assume some didn't realize what a Trump presidency would look like, but they don't get a pass should they vote him in a second time.  

 

Then I repeat, I am perfectly happy to stand by that statement. This lot are indeed complete ''scum'',

 

 

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2 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Then I repeat, I am perfectly happy to stand by that statement. This lot are indeed complete ''scum'',

 

 

I have called them scum as well and stand by my statements.  Not black scum or white scum.  Just scum.  They're losers with no jobs and no purpose so they think this gives them a purpose.  If Trump wins because of them it'll make his victory all the sweeter.

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The extra weekly $300 in unemployment that Trump signed over from FEMA has already run out in my state and others. It was only able to run for 5 weeks here. It was always said it wouldn’t last long but I thought it would at least last into October. What a disappointment.

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2 hours ago, ZoSoRose said:

The abortion thing is one of those archaic issues that was supposedly resolved decades ago, but old men in power with outdated idealogy want to go backwards on it. 

It's said a lot, but it speaks volumes that the majority of these men could not care less about what happens after birth. 

So you support an ideology that finds no problem with the idea that life only begins at birth? Yet 38 states will charge someone with murder if a pregnant mother is attacked and the unborn child dies. So clearly the unborn DO have rights. So if a mother wants to keep the child, it's murder. But if she doesn't it's not? How is this consistent? One person is NOT entitled to this kind of power over another, women's rights be damned. 

Last year alone, over 600,000 abortions were conducted in America alone. Since Roe v Wade, the amount of abortions conducted in America is well over 30 million. Compare that to the Trail of tears, which most people feel is the worst thing the American government ever did, where 60,000 Native Americans were killed. The numbers don't lie, abortion IS the biggest black eye in America history. 

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