Wallace Ford Muhammad, The Nation of Islam and Religious Charlatanism

[Len Cnut]

Thought I'd make a thread about this, I'm sure loads of you know who The Nation of Islam are but just to clear it up they were led by Elijah Muhammad and were a sort of a distorted affrocentric take on Islam whereby they thought the white race were a race of devils and the black man was the original man, it was the movement that gave you Malcolm X. According to their doctrine the white race were created by a mad scientist called Yakub on a remote island called Patmos, they were weak and inferior by definition but cunning and devious where the black race is/was noble and honest and as such sort of taken advantage of, resulting in the slavery etc etc and so forth.

Now the origins of the religion are that Elijah Muhammad, the supposed prophet met God, as in literallly God, Allah in Detroit (cuz where else would he be eh? ) in the form of a man named WD Fard who imparted all this knowledge to him and disappeared. Fard is still considered by the NOI as God. His life was kinda shrouded in mystery, he kind came and disappeared without a trace and as such his life, due to this lack of documentation, has been open to like...misrepresentation according to the whims of whoever felt like misrepresenting him.

Now it turns out that the FBI kept files on these guys from very very early on due to the seditious nature of the whole enterprise and in those FBI files they managed to pretty certainly ascertain that WD Fard was actually a man named Wallace Ford, apparently from Portland Oregon who basically started this faith, picking little parts and ideas out of Islam and making the rest up...he was a guy with a criminal record for selling drugs, bootlegging, assault with a deadly weapon...a con man basically. He had some like 58 aliases and although there is a great deal of detail still missing from who the person really was and a proper detailed history of the guy but it is difficult to deny that this mystical man that kinda came and went and was only really documented and out in the open in America for a period of 5 to 6 years was in fact Wallace Ford.

There are those who state that Elijah Muhammad made the whole 'he was God' bit up, his own son in fact refused to join the faith, was prompted tons by his mother and father to fall in line and he refused, resulting in his leaving his father and mother and he even claims that, on his way out, he asked his mother 'did Fard ever really say he was God?' and she hung her head and said no, he didn't.

It's just fascinating to me, that this guy, who was most likely just a con man and a chancer with a degree of knowledge about certain doctrines became so influential. I mean without this guy there'd be no Malcolm X, no Black Panthers, no Muhammad Ali, he's pretty hugely influential in 20th Century culture...yet no ones really sure where he was born, where he's buried etc etc...and yet he had this massive influence on culture, through him also came the 5% Nation of Gods and Earths, hip hop culture is MASSIVELY influenced by his teachings, a great deal of your favourite rappers are informed, by proxy, by WD Fard and his teachings.

It got me to thinking...we know his origins, or have the best idea as to his origins precisely because there was an FBI and they ran this counter intelligence program (or COINTELPRO)...were it not for that and for the moderate levels of documentation that went on a great many more (as many still do) would probably think of this guy as a God.

Now there weren't a COINTELPRO in the times of Muhammad in Saudi Arabia...but a guy goes up into a mountain and gets divine revelations that fit REALLY neatly into semetic doctrine, yet tag Muhammad onto the end of em, who happens to be the guy recieving the revelations?

Or even Jesus and the gospels...now I'm not trying to shit on anyones religion or claim that Muhammad or Jesus or any other prophet were potentially crooks like Fard appears to be but I'm talking about the skewing of information. This isn't some new idea thats occuring to me, it's just reading and learning about Fard with this kind of detail, having previously only known of him for many many years based on what the NOI or The Autobiography of Malcolm X said about him (which i obviously didn't give an ounce of credence, their telling of who Fard was that is) it's odd to see this mythical character exposed as so human, even though i know he couldn't've been anything other than human.

What serious authority is there for the gospels? Or Hadith? How reliable are any of these texts? What is their value outside of their value in a literary sense? Or even various buddhist texts and sutras and hindu stuff? And can a thing that comes from spurious roots result in an overall positive effect?

And Fard was SERIOUSLY influential...I mean not just in the ways stated above but a lot of the muslim community in America I'm led to believe converted to conventional Islam having previously been in and around doctrine of the NOI or the 5% Nation or even The Temple of Moorish Science established by Noble Drew Ali...I mean it's not a coincidence that Fard began his works in Detroit which i think I'm right in stating has one of the highest concentration of muslims, conventional or otherwise, in America today. Malcolm X ended up in conventional Islam with noble goals (because honestly, they were a tad misguided before) but had it not been for Fard and the Nation he was Detroit Red, a hustler, pimp and house-breaker.

It's interesting to note that there haven't really been any 'prophets' or miracles of the Lord in modern times, no confirmed credible instances of em anyway in modern times...it seems as documentation and credible historical accounts grew as the modern times evolved there has been less and less of this shit and the ones that there have been have pretty quickly been confirmed as con men.

What are your opinions about this stuff? I'd be most interested in hearing from people that have some kind of religious faith. Is it even important to you whether they were or weren't con men. I mean take Jesus for instance, lets say for the sake of argument that he was a con man (i'm really sorry to anyone thats offensive to, pure hypothesis here, i'm not trying to suggest anything here) would it matter to you as a Christian? I mean bearing in mind the countless positive things that have occured in his name, all the benefit that has gotten from Christ and the gospels or what have you, does the veracity of these things even matter anymore? Or if the gospels were completely distorted to present a certain things, is it still important?

I mean on the face of it Fard was...a wrong un for want of a better word...but if his having been has resulted in so much positivity, and his still having a strong following who persist in denying the FBIs findings, has it been a bad thing overall?

Edited December 18, 2015 by Len B'stard

[Słash]

These are just Self proclaimed God men and the people you mentioned who follow this guy and his different type of Islam are humans, so well they can follow whoever they want. But these kind of people try to put shit in your head.

All religions should be respected, but people claiming to be God or the direct messenger of God is insane.

[classicrawker]

These are just Self proclaimed God men and the people you mentioned who follow this guy and his different type of Islam are humans, so well they can follow whoever they want. But these kind of people try to put shit in your head.

All religions should be respected, but people claiming to be God or the direct messenger of God is insane.

I am not a defender of any religion but isn't the Pope a messenger of God? How about people who claim to have seen visions Jesus or the Virgin Mary? How are they anymore "insane" than religion in general? Not trying to bust your stones but I have a hard time calling aspects of one religion insane unless tht makes anyone who believes in religion insane.

Thought I'd make a thread about this, I'm sure loads of you know who The Nation of Islam are but just to clear it up they were led by Elijah Muhammad and were a sort of a distorted affrocentric take on Islam whereby they thought the white race were a race of devils and the black man was the original man, it was the movement that gave you Malcolm X. According to their doctrine the white race were created by a mad scientist called Yakub on a remote island called Patmos, they were weak and inferior by definition but cunning and devious where the black race is/was noble and honest and as such sort of taken advantage of, resulting in the slavery etc etc and so forth.

Now the origins of the religion are that Elijah Muhammad, the supposed prophet met God, as in literallly God, Allah in Detroit (cuz where else would he be eh? ) in the form of a man named WD Fard who imparted all this knowledge to him and disappeared. Fard is still considered by the NOI as God. His life was kinda shrouded in mystery, he kind came and disappeared without a trace and as such his life, due to this lack of documentation, has been open to like...misrepresentation according to the whims of whoever felt like misrepresenting him.

Now it turns out that the FBI kept files on these guys from very very early on due to the seditious nature of the whole enterprise and in those FBI files they managed to pretty certainly ascertain that WD Fard was actually a man named Wallace Ford, apparently from Portland Oregon who basically started this faith, picking little parts and ideas out of Islam and making the rest up...he was a guy with a criminal record for selling drugs, bootlegging, assault with a deadly weapon...a con man basically. He had some like 58 aliases and although there is a great deal of detail still missing from who the person really was and a proper detailed history of the guy but it is difficult to deny that this mystical man that kinda came and went and was only really documented and out in the open in America for a period of 5 to 6 years was in fact Wallace Ford.

There are those who state that Elijah Muhammad made the whole 'he was God' bit up, his own son in fact refused to join the faith, was prompted tons by his mother and father to fall in line and he refused, resulting in his leaving his father and mother and he even claims that, on his way out, he asked his mother 'did Fard ever really say he was God?' and she hung her head and said no, he didn't.

It's just fascinating to me, that this guy, who was most likely just a con man and a chancer with a degree of knowledge about certain doctrines became so influential. I mean without this guy there'd be no Malcolm X, no Black Panthers, no Muhammad Ali, he's pretty hugely influential in 20th Century culture...yet no ones really sure where he was born, where he's buried etc etc...and yet he had this massive influence on culture, through him also came the 5% Nation of Gods and Earths, hip hop culture is MASSIVELY influenced by his teachings, a great deal of your favourite rappers are informed, by proxy, by WD Fard and his teachings.

It got me to thinking...we know his origins, or have the best idea as to his origins precisely because there was an FBI and they ran this counter intelligence program (or COINTELPRO)...were it not for that and for the moderate levels of documentation that went on a great many more (as many still do) would probably think of this guy as a God.

Now there weren't a COINTELPRO in the times of Muhammad in Saudi Arabia...but a guy goes up into a mountain and gets divine revelations that fit REALLY neatly into semetic doctrine, yet tag Muhammad onto the end of em, who happens to be the guy recieving the revelations?

Or even Jesus and the gospels...now I'm not trying to shit on anyones religion or claim that Muhammad or Jesus or any other prophet were potentially crooks like Fard appears to be but I'm talking about the skewing of information. This isn't some new idea thats occuring to me, it's just reading and learning about Fard with this kind of detail, having previously only known of him for many many years based on what the NOI or The Autobiography of Malcolm X said about him (which i obviously didn't give an ounce of credence, their telling of who Fard was that is) it's odd to see this mythical character exposed as so human, even though i know he couldn't've been anything other than human.

What serious authority is there for the gospels? Or Hadith? How reliable are any of these texts? What is their value outside of their value in a literary sense? Or even various buddhist texts and sutras and hindu stuff? And can a thing that comes from spurious roots result in an overall positive effect?

And Fard was SERIOUSLY influential...I mean not just in the ways stated above but a lot of the muslim community in America I'm led to believe converted to conventional Islam having previously been in and around doctrine of the NOI or the 5% Nation or even The Temple of Moorish Science established by Noble Drew Ali...I mean it's not a coincidence that Fard began his works in Detroit which i think I'm right in stating has one of the highest concentration of muslims, conventional or otherwise, in America today. Malcolm X ended up in conventional Islam with noble goals (because honestly, they were a tad misguided before) but had it not been for Fard and the Nation he was Detroit Red, a hustler, pimp and house-breaker.

It's interesting to note that there haven't really been any 'prophets' or miracles of the Lord in modern times, no confirmed credible instances of em anyway in modern times...it seems as documentation and credible historical accounts grew as the modern times evolved there has been less and less of this shit and the ones that there have been have pretty quickly been confirmed as con men.

What are your opinions about this stuff? I'd be most interested in hearing from people that have some kind of religious faith. Is it even important to you whether they were or weren't con men. I mean take Jesus for instance, lets say for the sake of argument that he was a con man (i'm really sorry to anyone thats offensive to, pure hypothesis here, i'm not trying to suggest anything here) would it matter to you as a Christian? I mean bearing in mind the countless positive things that have occured in his name, all the benefit that has gotten from Christ and the gospels or what have you, does the veracity of these things even matter anymore? Or if the gospels were completely distorted to present a certain things, is it still important?

I mean on the face of it Fard was...a wrong un for want of a better word...but if his having been has resulted in so much positivity, and his still having a strong following who persist in denying the FBIs findings, has it been a bad thing overall?

You could argue all religions are made up to some extent yes?

Edited December 18, 2015 by classicrawker

[SoulMonster]

All religions should be respected

I think that is big of you, but I see no reason to respect any worldview or idea in itself. Humans can be respected, yes, but not mormonism, communism, atheism, pragmatism, christianity, liberalism, hinduism, jihadism, occultism, materialism, etc.

[Len Cnut]

These are just Self proclaimed God men and the people you mentioned who follow this guy and his different type of Islam are humans, so well they can follow whoever they want. But these kind of people try to put shit in your head.

All religions should be respected, but people claiming to be God or the direct messenger of God is insane.

I am not a defender of any religion but isn't the Pope a messenger of God? How about people who claim to have seen visions Jesus or the Virgin Mary? How are they anymore "insane" than religion in general? Not trying to bust your stones but I have a hard time calling aspects of one religion insane unless tht makes anyone who believes in religion insane.

Thought I'd make a thread about this, I'm sure loads of you know who The Nation of Islam are but just to clear it up they were led by Elijah Muhammad and were a sort of a distorted affrocentric take on Islam whereby they thought the white race were a race of devils and the black man was the original man, it was the movement that gave you Malcolm X. According to their doctrine the white race were created by a mad scientist called Yakub on a remote island called Patmos, they were weak and inferior by definition but cunning and devious where the black race is/was noble and honest and as such sort of taken advantage of, resulting in the slavery etc etc and so forth.

Now the origins of the religion are that Elijah Muhammad, the supposed prophet met God, as in literallly God, Allah in Detroit (cuz where else would he be eh? ) in the form of a man named WD Fard who imparted all this knowledge to him and disappeared. Fard is still considered by the NOI as God. His life was kinda shrouded in mystery, he kind came and disappeared without a trace and as such his life, due to this lack of documentation, has been open to like...misrepresentation according to the whims of whoever felt like misrepresenting him.

Now it turns out that the FBI kept files on these guys from very very early on due to the seditious nature of the whole enterprise and in those FBI files they managed to pretty certainly ascertain that WD Fard was actually a man named Wallace Ford, apparently from Portland Oregon who basically started this faith, picking little parts and ideas out of Islam and making the rest up...he was a guy with a criminal record for selling drugs, bootlegging, assault with a deadly weapon...a con man basically. He had some like 58 aliases and although there is a great deal of detail still missing from who the person really was and a proper detailed history of the guy but it is difficult to deny that this mystical man that kinda came and went and was only really documented and out in the open in America for a period of 5 to 6 years was in fact Wallace Ford.

There are those who state that Elijah Muhammad made the whole 'he was God' bit up, his own son in fact refused to join the faith, was prompted tons by his mother and father to fall in line and he refused, resulting in his leaving his father and mother and he even claims that, on his way out, he asked his mother 'did Fard ever really say he was God?' and she hung her head and said no, he didn't.

It's just fascinating to me, that this guy, who was most likely just a con man and a chancer with a degree of knowledge about certain doctrines became so influential. I mean without this guy there'd be no Malcolm X, no Black Panthers, no Muhammad Ali, he's pretty hugely influential in 20th Century culture...yet no ones really sure where he was born, where he's buried etc etc...and yet he had this massive influence on culture, through him also came the 5% Nation of Gods and Earths, hip hop culture is MASSIVELY influenced by his teachings, a great deal of your favourite rappers are informed, by proxy, by WD Fard and his teachings.

It got me to thinking...we know his origins, or have the best idea as to his origins precisely because there was an FBI and they ran this counter intelligence program (or COINTELPRO)...were it not for that and for the moderate levels of documentation that went on a great many more (as many still do) would probably think of this guy as a God.

Now there weren't a COINTELPRO in the times of Muhammad in Saudi Arabia...but a guy goes up into a mountain and gets divine revelations that fit REALLY neatly into semetic doctrine, yet tag Muhammad onto the end of em, who happens to be the guy recieving the revelations?

Or even Jesus and the gospels...now I'm not trying to shit on anyones religion or claim that Muhammad or Jesus or any other prophet were potentially crooks like Fard appears to be but I'm talking about the skewing of information. This isn't some new idea thats occuring to me, it's just reading and learning about Fard with this kind of detail, having previously only known of him for many many years based on what the NOI or The Autobiography of Malcolm X said about him (which i obviously didn't give an ounce of credence, their telling of who Fard was that is) it's odd to see this mythical character exposed as so human, even though i know he couldn't've been anything other than human.

What serious authority is there for the gospels? Or Hadith? How reliable are any of these texts? What is their value outside of their value in a literary sense? Or even various buddhist texts and sutras and hindu stuff? And can a thing that comes from spurious roots result in an overall positive effect?

And Fard was SERIOUSLY influential...I mean not just in the ways stated above but a lot of the muslim community in America I'm led to believe converted to conventional Islam having previously been in and around doctrine of the NOI or the 5% Nation or even The Temple of Moorish Science established by Noble Drew Ali...I mean it's not a coincidence that Fard began his works in Detroit which i think I'm right in stating has one of the highest concentration of muslims, conventional or otherwise, in America today. Malcolm X ended up in conventional Islam with noble goals (because honestly, they were a tad misguided before) but had it not been for Fard and the Nation he was Detroit Red, a hustler, pimp and house-breaker.

It's interesting to note that there haven't really been any 'prophets' or miracles of the Lord in modern times, no confirmed credible instances of em anyway in modern times...it seems as documentation and credible historical accounts grew as the modern times evolved there has been less and less of this shit and the ones that there have been have pretty quickly been confirmed as con men.

What are your opinions about this stuff? I'd be most interested in hearing from people that have some kind of religious faith. Is it even important to you whether they were or weren't con men. I mean take Jesus for instance, lets say for the sake of argument that he was a con man (i'm really sorry to anyone thats offensive to, pure hypothesis here, i'm not trying to suggest anything here) would it matter to you as a Christian? I mean bearing in mind the countless positive things that have occured in his name, all the benefit that has gotten from Christ and the gospels or what have you, does the veracity of these things even matter anymore? Or if the gospels were completely distorted to present a certain things, is it still important?

I mean on the face of it Fard was...a wrong un for want of a better word...but if his having been has resulted in so much positivity, and his still having a strong following who persist in denying the FBIs findings, has it been a bad thing overall?

You could argue all religions are made up to some extent yes?

That wasn't really the question.

[classicrawker]

These are just Self proclaimed God men and the people you mentioned who follow this guy and his different type of Islam are humans, so well they can follow whoever they want. But these kind of people try to put shit in your head.

All religions should be respected, but people claiming to be God or the direct messenger of God is insane.

I am not a defender of any religion but isn't the Pope a messenger of God? How about people who claim to have seen visions Jesus or the Virgin Mary? How are they anymore "insane" than religion in general? Not trying to bust your stones but I have a hard time calling aspects of one religion insane unless tht makes anyone who believes in religion insane.

Thought I'd make a thread about this, I'm sure loads of you know who The Nation of Islam are but just to clear it up they were led by Elijah Muhammad and were a sort of a distorted affrocentric take on Islam whereby they thought the white race were a race of devils and the black man was the original man, it was the movement that gave you Malcolm X. According to their doctrine the white race were created by a mad scientist called Yakub on a remote island called Patmos, they were weak and inferior by definition but cunning and devious where the black race is/was noble and honest and as such sort of taken advantage of, resulting in the slavery etc etc and so forth.

Now the origins of the religion are that Elijah Muhammad, the supposed prophet met God, as in literallly God, Allah in Detroit (cuz where else would he be eh? ) in the form of a man named WD Fard who imparted all this knowledge to him and disappeared. Fard is still considered by the NOI as God. His life was kinda shrouded in mystery, he kind came and disappeared without a trace and as such his life, due to this lack of documentation, has been open to like...misrepresentation according to the whims of whoever felt like misrepresenting him.

Now it turns out that the FBI kept files on these guys from very very early on due to the seditious nature of the whole enterprise and in those FBI files they managed to pretty certainly ascertain that WD Fard was actually a man named Wallace Ford, apparently from Portland Oregon who basically started this faith, picking little parts and ideas out of Islam and making the rest up...he was a guy with a criminal record for selling drugs, bootlegging, assault with a deadly weapon...a con man basically. He had some like 58 aliases and although there is a great deal of detail still missing from who the person really was and a proper detailed history of the guy but it is difficult to deny that this mystical man that kinda came and went and was only really documented and out in the open in America for a period of 5 to 6 years was in fact Wallace Ford.

There are those who state that Elijah Muhammad made the whole 'he was God' bit up, his own son in fact refused to join the faith, was prompted tons by his mother and father to fall in line and he refused, resulting in his leaving his father and mother and he even claims that, on his way out, he asked his mother 'did Fard ever really say he was God?' and she hung her head and said no, he didn't.

It's just fascinating to me, that this guy, who was most likely just a con man and a chancer with a degree of knowledge about certain doctrines became so influential. I mean without this guy there'd be no Malcolm X, no Black Panthers, no Muhammad Ali, he's pretty hugely influential in 20th Century culture...yet no ones really sure where he was born, where he's buried etc etc...and yet he had this massive influence on culture, through him also came the 5% Nation of Gods and Earths, hip hop culture is MASSIVELY influenced by his teachings, a great deal of your favourite rappers are informed, by proxy, by WD Fard and his teachings.

It got me to thinking...we know his origins, or have the best idea as to his origins precisely because there was an FBI and they ran this counter intelligence program (or COINTELPRO)...were it not for that and for the moderate levels of documentation that went on a great many more (as many still do) would probably think of this guy as a God.

Now there weren't a COINTELPRO in the times of Muhammad in Saudi Arabia...but a guy goes up into a mountain and gets divine revelations that fit REALLY neatly into semetic doctrine, yet tag Muhammad onto the end of em, who happens to be the guy recieving the revelations?

Or even Jesus and the gospels...now I'm not trying to shit on anyones religion or claim that Muhammad or Jesus or any other prophet were potentially crooks like Fard appears to be but I'm talking about the skewing of information. This isn't some new idea thats occuring to me, it's just reading and learning about Fard with this kind of detail, having previously only known of him for many many years based on what the NOI or The Autobiography of Malcolm X said about him (which i obviously didn't give an ounce of credence, their telling of who Fard was that is) it's odd to see this mythical character exposed as so human, even though i know he couldn't've been anything other than human.

What serious authority is there for the gospels? Or Hadith? How reliable are any of these texts? What is their value outside of their value in a literary sense? Or even various buddhist texts and sutras and hindu stuff? And can a thing that comes from spurious roots result in an overall positive effect?

And Fard was SERIOUSLY influential...I mean not just in the ways stated above but a lot of the muslim community in America I'm led to believe converted to conventional Islam having previously been in and around doctrine of the NOI or the 5% Nation or even The Temple of Moorish Science established by Noble Drew Ali...I mean it's not a coincidence that Fard began his works in Detroit which i think I'm right in stating has one of the highest concentration of muslims, conventional or otherwise, in America today. Malcolm X ended up in conventional Islam with noble goals (because honestly, they were a tad misguided before) but had it not been for Fard and the Nation he was Detroit Red, a hustler, pimp and house-breaker.

It's interesting to note that there haven't really been any 'prophets' or miracles of the Lord in modern times, no confirmed credible instances of em anyway in modern times...it seems as documentation and credible historical accounts grew as the modern times evolved there has been less and less of this shit and the ones that there have been have pretty quickly been confirmed as con men.

What are your opinions about this stuff? I'd be most interested in hearing from people that have some kind of religious faith. Is it even important to you whether they were or weren't con men. I mean take Jesus for instance, lets say for the sake of argument that he was a con man (i'm really sorry to anyone thats offensive to, pure hypothesis here, i'm not trying to suggest anything here) would it matter to you as a Christian? I mean bearing in mind the countless positive things that have occured in his name, all the benefit that has gotten from Christ and the gospels or what have you, does the veracity of these things even matter anymore? Or if the gospels were completely distorted to present a certain things, is it still important?

I mean on the face of it Fard was...a wrong un for want of a better word...but if his having been has resulted in so much positivity, and his still having a strong following who persist in denying the FBIs findings, has it been a bad thing overall?

You could argue all religions are made up to some extent yes?

That wasn't really the question.

Sorry Lenny but after reading your OP I am not sure what you are asking. Do you want an opinion if even though the guy may have been a con man if that is o.k. because there were good things that came out of his religion?

[Len Cnut]

Do you want an opinion if even though the guy may have been a con man if that is o.k. because there were good things that came out of his religion?

Yeah, that and your opinion on the idea that a lot of what we take for granted historically might be bullshit. Like accounts of Caesar or Cleopatra or....y'know, does the truth really have any bearing in regards to these things? Or is it just belief thats important?

[classicrawker]

Do you want an opinion if even though the guy may have been a con man if that is o.k. because there were good things that came out of his religion?

Yeah, that and your opinion on the idea that a lot of what we take for granted historically might be bullshit. Like accounts of Caesar or Cleopatra or....y'know, does the truth really have any bearing in regards to these things? Or is it just belief thats important?

I am an atheist so probably not the opinion you were looking for but I am not anti-religion as I think most religions I am familiar with have some good attributes but it is man who twists the message to suit their agenda.

I also think we have to consider historical accounts written 2000 year ago with skepticism as most likely they got distorted over the years by those retelling the story.

That was always my issue with the Bible. Here is a book written 2000 years ago which has, IMHO, has been manipulated, censored and rewritten by the church to tell the story they need to push their agenda. Personally I doubt very much it reflects the writings of the original authors.....

[Dazey]

All religions should be respected.

Why?

Edited December 19, 2015 by Dazey

[Len Cnut]

All religions should be respected.

Why?

Because the opposite is uncivilised and digressive and gets peoples backs up and does 'the truth' no favours.

[MB.]

Do you want an opinion if even though the guy may have been a con man if that is o.k. because there were good things that came out of his religion?

Yeah, that and your opinion on the idea that a lot of what we take for granted historically might be bullshit. Like accounts of Caesar or Cleopatra or....y'know, does the truth really have any bearing in regards to these things? Or is it just belief thats important?

I am an atheist so probably not the opinion you were looking for but I am not anti-religion as I think most religions I am familiar with have some good attributes but it is man who twists the message to suit their agenda.

I also think we have to consider historical accounts written 2000 year ago with skepticism as most likely they got distorted over the years by those retelling the story.

That was always my issue with the Bible. Here is a book written 2000 years ago which has, IMHO, has been manipulated, censored and rewritten by the church to tell the story they need to push their agenda. Personally I doubt very much it reflects the writings of the original authors.....

I basicly have no trust in any relgious book, written ages ago and/or written by men.

[Len Cnut]

Do you want an opinion if even though the guy may have been a con man if that is o.k. because there were good things that came out of his religion?

Yeah, that and your opinion on the idea that a lot of what we take for granted historically might be bullshit. Like accounts of Caesar or Cleopatra or....y'know, does the truth really have any bearing in regards to these things? Or is it just belief thats important?

I am an atheist so probably not the opinion you were looking for but I am not anti-religion as I think most religions I am familiar with have some good attributes but it is man who twists the message to suit their agenda.

I also think we have to consider historical accounts written 2000 year ago with skepticism as most likely they got distorted over the years by those retelling the story.

That was always my issue with the Bible. Here is a book written 2000 years ago which has, IMHO, has been manipulated, censored and rewritten by the church to tell the story they need to push their agenda. Personally I doubt very much it reflects the writings of the original authors.....

I basicly have no trust in any relgious book, written ages ago and/or written by men.

Why?

[MB.]

Your story is a perfect example why I don't trust it Len.

That was always my issue with the Bible. Here is a book written 2000 years ago which has, IMHO, has been manipulated, censored and rewritten by the church to tell the story they need to push their agenda. Personally I doubt very much it reflects the writings of the original authors.....

Exactly this^

Men in power can not be trusted with religion. It's not only the bible imo, but it concerns every book for every religion. As soon as men of power get a hold on it, it's done. Some books might have been written once with good intentions, but were destroyed as soon as power hungry men get a hold of it and they were. Changing tekst, manipulate people, bringing fear, adding rules fitting their agenda, pretty sure that happened.

Look at it like this, what if Thatcher and Reagan were in their time able to get a hold of the bible and had enough power to change it, cause most people couldn't read or never went to school and all that? Would you trust their version of the bible? Lol

Edited December 19, 2015 by MB.

[Len Cnut]

Your story is a perfect example why I don't trust it Len.

That was always my issue with the Bible. Here is a book written 2000 years ago which has, IMHO, has been manipulated, censored and rewritten by the church to tell the story they need to push their agenda. Personally I doubt very much it reflects the writings of the original authors.....

Exactly this^

Men in power can not be trusted with religion. It's not only the bible imo, but it concerns every book for every religion. As soon as men of power get a hold on it, it's done. Some books might have been written once with good intentions, but were destroyed as soon as power hungry men get a hold of it and they were. Changing tekst, manipulate people, bringing fear, adding rules fitting their agenda, pretty sure that happened.

Look at it like this, what if Tatcher and Reagan were in their time able to get a hold of the bible and had enough power to change it, cause most people couldn't read or never went to school and all that? Would you trust their version of the bible? Lol

But surely then it's people you don't trust more than the books per se? And if that is the case then a similar view should be taken towards anything ever told or written. Also, my post about Fard Muhammad is very much a personal conclusion, there's still a great deal thats not really revealed there or there are opposing points of view regarding it.

There's even a thing out there of an interview or discussion between him and Albert Einstein, personally i think it's a load of bollocks and I'm sure a face value assessment of the movements of the two doesn't even put them in the same places historically although a great many believe that stuff.

Louis Farrakhan apparently, to this day believes Fard was God.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Len B'stard

[Len Cnut]

A confirmed picture of Fard from the Nation of Islam

San Quentin mugshot of Wallace Ford...same person? Certainly looks it to me.

Whats interesting is for a black supremacist movement their God looks awfully like a white man

Edited December 19, 2015 by Len B'stard

[MB.]

Since the book are changed probably, it are the books which are no longer trustworthy as well imo. And yeah, it could be the case with a lot of things, but none are as important as religion, cause it helped leaders to rule over people, make them obey them. Ofcourse some good is in there as well, but bringing fear has always annoyed me.

Maybe the orginal books were written with good inentions, maybe not. But I don't believe in the books in the first place. Religion is a sensitive subject for many though. But let's say I am with Dazey on this one.

[Orsys]

Your story is a perfect example why I don't trust it Len.

That was always my issue with the Bible. Here is a book written 2000 years ago which has, IMHO, has been manipulated, censored and rewritten by the church to tell the story they need to push their agenda. Personally I doubt very much it reflects the writings of the original authors.....

Exactly this^

Men in power can not be trusted with religion. It's not only the bible imo, but it concerns every book for every religion. As soon as men of power get a hold on it, it's done. Some books might have been written once with good intentions, but were destroyed as soon as power hungry men get a hold of it and they were. Changing tekst, manipulate people, bringing fear, adding rules fitting their agenda, pretty sure that happened.

Look at it like this, what if Tatcher and Reagan were in their time able to get a hold of the bible and had enough power to change it, cause most people couldn't read or never went to school and all that? Would you trust their version of the bible? Lol

This^

The King James translation of the Bible is a perfect example. It was completely, politically directed to push the agenda of the sitting king. It firmly established the piwer of church vs congregation. It minimized the role and power of women by translating from relatively late Greek translations which had already reduced the importance of women from earlier translations. Certainly not the result of the original pious men and women and their journals of their experiences.

[Len Cnut]

I find the idea that since these things are governed by faith i.e. i have faith in this book and it's origins and or that which it entails, that without evidence there's a good chance that they might be the works of or about con men and yet large swathes of the population are willing to believe in them factually. To me that says something kinda scary about the human race, not just in regards to religion but our belief systems in general.

I mean it's one thing for a book to be right or wrong or misguided...but a con is a different thing altogether. And if thats the case, that these are cases of mass manipulation for the personal profit of the few, where does that leave our countries and their laws and the way of life we lead? Whether it's capitalism or communism or even our democracies.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Len B'stard

[Dazey]

All religions should be respected.

Why?

Because the opposite is uncivilised and digressive and gets peoples backs up and does 'the truth' no favours.

Cobblers!

[Dazey]

Your story is a perfect example why I don't trust it Len.

That was always my issue with the Bible. Here is a book written 2000 years ago which has, IMHO, has been manipulated, censored and rewritten by the church to tell the story they need to push their agenda. Personally I doubt very much it reflects the writings of the original authors.....

Exactly this^

Men in power can not be trusted with religion. It's not only the bible imo, but it concerns every book for every religion. As soon as men of power get a hold on it, it's done. Some books might have been written once with good intentions, but were destroyed as soon as power hungry men get a hold of it and they were. Changing tekst, manipulate people, bringing fear, adding rules fitting their agenda, pretty sure that happened.

Look at it like this, what if Tatcher and Reagan were in their time able to get a hold of the bible and had enough power to change it, cause most people couldn't read or never went to school and all that? Would you trust their version of the bible? Lol

This^

The King James translation of the Bible is a perfect example. It was completely, politically directed to push the agenda of the sitting king. It firmly established the piwer of church vs congregation. It minimized the role and power of women by translating from relatively late Greek translations which had already reduced the importance of women from earlier translations. Certainly not the result of the original pious men and women and their journals of their experiences.

That and the fact that it talks about people doing magic.

[SoulMonster]

All religions should be respected.

Why?

Because the opposite is uncivilised and digressive and gets peoples backs up and does 'the truth' no favours.

Cobblers!

Yeah, automatically respecting religions, or any other ideas, is just plain moronic.

We respect humans, and we value ideas based on the effect they have.

[Len Cnut]

All religions should be respected.

Why?

Because the opposite is uncivilised and digressive and gets peoples backs up and does 'the truth' no favours.

Cobblers!

It works like this, beliefs are intrinsically tied to the people who believe in them, as are way of lives etc etc etc...I mean you don't go into a Hindus house, however ridiculous you might find their religion, and go 'fuck me Ranjit, whats with the picture of Nelly on the fuckin' wall, whys he got six hands, so he can carry more trunks on the way to Mandalay?', that how just be insulting and rude and disrespectful of the human being. In much the same way when ideas like free speech or democracy etc and so forth are attacked people of the free world take offence. With certain kinds of ideas, beliefs if you will they are intrinsically tied to the person that believes in them and unless you are looking for a barney you do not insult them pointlessly.

All religions should be respected.

Why?

Because the opposite is uncivilised and digressive and gets peoples backs up and does 'the truth' no favours.

Cobblers!

Yeah, automatically respecting religions, or any other ideas, is just plain moronic.

We respect humans, and we value ideas based on the effect they have.

No you do not respect humans, how can you possibly respect someone if you disrespect their core beliefs that they hold dear, to those people that is the utmost disrespect. I mean you just called people that choose to be respectful 'moronic', i mean seriously, ever wonder why you never get anywhere in a discussion? The notion of respecting other peoples beliefs is 'moronic'. See this is why Apollo constantly takes the piss out of you and you get all bothered about it, cuz it's the exact same attitude you employ in life to things you disagree with, this is basic social skills.

[classicrawker]

Your story is a perfect example why I don't trust it Len.

That was always my issue with the Bible. Here is a book written 2000 years ago which has, IMHO, has been manipulated, censored and rewritten by the church to tell the story they need to push their agenda. Personally I doubt very much it reflects the writings of the original authors.....

Exactly this^

Men in power can not be trusted with religion. It's not only the bible imo, but it concerns every book for every religion. As soon as men of power get a hold on it, it's done. Some books might have been written once with good intentions, but were destroyed as soon as power hungry men get a hold of it and they were. Changing tekst, manipulate people, bringing fear, adding rules fitting their agenda, pretty sure that happened.

Look at it like this, what if Tatcher and Reagan were in their time able to get a hold of the bible and had enough power to change it, cause most people couldn't read or never went to school and all that? Would you trust their version of the bible? Lol

But surely then it's people you don't trust more than the books per se? And if that is the case then a similar view should be taken towards anything ever told or written. Also, my post about Fard Muhammad is very much a personal conclusion, there's still a great deal thats not really revealed there or there are opposing points of view regarding it.

There's even a thing out there of an interview or discussion between him and Albert Einstein, personally i think it's a load of bollocks and I'm sure a face value assessment of the movements of the two doesn't even put them in the same places historically although a great many believe that stuff.

Louis Farrakhan apparently, to this day believes Fard was God.

If you could prove it was written by God than I think you have a point but IMHO the Bible was written by people without any advice from some imaginery diety ...... You cannot seperate the two......

[classicrawker]

I find the idea that since these things are governed by faith i.e. i have faith in this book and it's origins and or that which it entails, that without evidence there's a good chance that they might be the works of or about con men and yet large swathes of the population are willing to believe in them factually. To me that says something kinda scary about the human race, not just in regards to religion but our belief systems in general.

I mean it's one thing for a book to be right or wrong or misguided...but a con is a different thing altogether. And if thats the case, that these are cases of mass manipulation for the personal profit of the few, where does that leave our countries and their laws and the way of life we lead? Whether it's capitalism or communism or even our democracies.

Excellent post Len

If you haven't seen it check out the movie the Book of Eli. I love this movie and it pretty much describes what I have always believed about religion.

what follows is a spoiler so if you have never seen the movie and don't want to know the plot do not click..........

It is about the world after an apocolypse where one man, Gary Oldman, rules over a town, by controling the water supply and wants to expand his power.

He is educated while most of the people he controls can't read amymore so he is desperately looking for a copy of the bible. We learn in the movie that all the bibles were burned after the apocolypse so there is a insinuation that it could have been the result of a religious war of some type and people rebelled against organized religion.

This clip sums up why he wanted a bible and I think it is true to why some religoins were started and how man has corrupted the intent of the Bible and other religious books to control people for their own power and gain.

Edited December 19, 2015 by classicrawker

[MB.]

...I mean you don't go into a Hindus house, however ridiculous you might find their religion, and go 'fuck me Ranjit, whats with the picture of Nelly on the fuckin' wall, whys he got six hands, so he can carry more trunks on the way to Mandalay?', .

Made me laugh!