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Portland Neighborhood Divided Over ‘British Colonial’ Restaurant


Amir

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15 minutes ago, PappyTron said:

Taught those dirty Fuzzy Wuzzies a lesson. They don't like it up 'em.

I was saying similar to Dies' a while back where its like, you can look at something Churchill said and go 'racist' and you might even be right but does personal offence take prescedent over the fact that, when it mattered most, he sort of took the bull by the horns and led the forces that made it so we have the modern free world that we have today?  And its not like it was him alone, those ideas were the prevailing ideas of the time, not only socially or by some sort of ignorant underclass, they were corroborated even by the science of the day, are we to assume that there werent a good man or a man if valuable conduct to the human race on this entire planet prior to the 1960s or whatever because of racism?  Its silliness.

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10 minutes ago, Len B'stard said:

I was saying similar to Dies' a while back where its like, you can look at something Churchill said and go 'racist' and you might even be right but does personal offence take prescedent over the fact that, when it mattered most, he sort of took the bull by the horns and led the forces that made it so we have the modern free world that we have today?  And its not like it was him alone, those ideas were the prevailing ideas of the time, not only socially or by some sort of ignorant underclass, they were corroborated even by the science of the day, are we to assume that there werent a good man or a man if valuable conduct to the human race on this entire planet prior to the 1960s or whatever because of racism?  Its silliness.

I just wanted to say "Fuzzy Wuzzies", Len. :(

I agree though; it is very hard to judge someone except by the others of their time, and by that yard stick there is no issue with Churchill. Well, other than being a ginger.

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The biggest reason this is getting a lot of shit here is because they opened this restaurant in a historically black neighborhood that is now almost completely gentrified. Same thing is happening all over Portland. Minorities are getting priced out of zones that they have, traditionally, always lived in and in several cases, locations that were only allowed to live in (redlining) Lots of people from my college are considering protesting this.

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11 minutes ago, Jumpin' Jack Flash said:

The biggest reason this is getting a lot of shit here is because they opened this restaurant in a historically black neighborhood that is now almost completely gentrified. Same thing is happening all over Portland. Minorities are getting priced out of zones that they have, traditionally, always lived in and in several cases, locations that were only allowed to live in (redlining) Lots of people from my college are considering protesting this.

So, you don't support their right to run a business where the customer decides whether they will furnish that business with their patronage or not? Don't the people from your college have better things to do, such as completing their degrees?

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Churchill believe in this concept called the ''English speaking peoples''; he was a hopeless Americanphile (like Dazey haha) - remember, his mother was American. So Britain and America would steer the world in governance and civilization. But he wasn't interested in those cranky Dawinist sciences which proliferated then. He was a sort of Romantic, sentimental.

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8 hours ago, Len B'stard said:

I was saying similar to Dies' a while back where its like, you can look at something Churchill said and go 'racist' and you might even be right but does personal offence take prescedent over the fact that, when it mattered most, he sort of took the bull by the horns and led the forces that made it so we have the modern free world that we have today?  And its not like it was him alone, those ideas were the prevailing ideas of the time, not only socially or by some sort of ignorant underclass, they were corroborated even by the science of the day, are we to assume that there werent a good man or a man if valuable conduct to the human race on this entire planet prior to the 1960s or whatever because of racism?  Its silliness.

He ordered tanks into George Square in Glasgow in 1919 to disperse a crowd of 60,000 who had gathered to protest for better working conditions. Fucking tanks against ordinary Glaswegians. What a wank, man.

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He disliked socialism and feared a Bolshevik revolution (NB contemporary events in Russia).

PS

Churchill was a man of his age and class. His age was the height of Victoria's empire, and his class was of the aristocracy - his ancestor was the great 18th century military genius, the First Duke of Marlborough. He was perhaps more sympathetic to the plight of working people than the majority of his class, but he took a paternalistic (slightly patronising perhaps) viewpoint of them. He hated socialism and did not greatly differentiate socialism from 'Bolshevism'. Revolution in Russia, the murder of the Romanov family at Ekaterinburg, embedded in Churchill a fear of class conflict and socialism. For him to act against this would be, for a leopard to change his spots.

You have to judge people in their own context and era.

Edited by DieselDaisy
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1 hour ago, Graeme said:

He ordered tanks into George Square in Glasgow in 1919 to disperse a crowd of 60,000 who had gathered to protest for better working conditions. Fucking tanks against ordinary Glaswegians. What a wank, man.


A few other heinious things besides.  But see, in them days, Bolshevism might as well have been what ISIS is today, it was seen as that fuckin' evil...and still is in many quarters.  Now, I'm not so blind as to be unaware of the view that exists that Bolshevism and the fear of it could be, and is construed in some quarters and just being this ruse that was used to keep the working classes in their place.  Whatever it was, whenever working class people unified and mobilised and tried to get something done all you had to do is slap the label 'bolshevism' on it and you could get away with, literally, murder. 

But at the same time, to fight for what he fought for, in the manner that he did, to stand for what he stood for, oftentimes when few or no others would...and for it to result in victory over the forces of Nazism, it really is no less than saving the world.  This isn't to say that he should be absolved of all wrong doing forevermore but y'know what, if ever there was a reason for absolve someone of all wrong doing forevermore, saving the world is one of them.  Now i know a lot of WW2 afficiandos will argue the toss with me about all this and of course I'm not saying it was all Churchill or all England 100%, that would just be being blind to the truth but the way he led, especially in the earlier parts of WW2, the way he stood up, the nature of what he was facing, then with the French falling to one side and all...were Churchill not doing the bizzo in them early stages who knows where we'd be.  Thats a helluva thing.  A HELLUVA fucking thing.  I mean I've written essays about The Beatles or The Sex Pistols or Punk or whatever on here and made them sound like the living end before now but like...this is serious fucking business.  If one man could be said to be responsible for us being here now and able to enjoy the freedoms that we do as we do, i don't think you could make a better case for anybody besides Winston Churchill...and when you've done that much, well, a lot of things do kind of get washed away.

I agree with you overall, don't get me wrong, i don't shortcomings should at all be forgotten...but then neither should the broader context.  'Churchill was a cunt' no more an accurate appraisal than 'Churchill was a superhero!'...but i tell you what the latter is closer to true, in my eyes at least, and this is in full knowledge of certain comments he made about people from my part of the world and his belief in the colonial right of Britain and what that meant for my sort.  I'm sounding like an awful whitemans arselicker here but I'd like to think that, knowing what you do of me from on here, that that is not the case...you white bastard :lol:

 

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7 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Without Churchill, Halifax would have been Prime Minister and would have almost certainly negotiated a peace with Hitler, leaving Hitler free to conqueror eastern Europe. Just imagine the results of that?

Yes, and he also wanted to arm the Germans in 1945 and go invade Russia with them. :lol:

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On 4/2/2016 at 10:19 PM, PappyTron said:

So, you don't support their right to run a business where the customer decides whether they will furnish that business with their patronage or not? Don't the people from your college have better things to do, such as completing their degrees?

By "you" are you referring to me? Or are you using that in the general sense. Because I don't know where the fuck you got the idea that you know what I think about this.

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43 minutes ago, Jumpin' Jack Flash said:

By "you" are you referring to me? Or are you using that in the general sense. Because I don't know where the fuck you got the idea that you know what I think about this.

I was using "you" as a synecdoche for your college, so no need to get your frilly pink knickers in a twist.

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40 minutes ago, Jumpin' Jack Flash said:

Articulate more clearly next time or don't respond at all. 

I have no need to articulate more clearly. You do, however, need to learn how to read basic English, it seems. The best of luck with your degree from Portland.

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