Feeling Betrayed

[Towelie]

I do think Axl will be able to get away with a lot more now that he has Slash and Duff back in the band. You just know he will sound identical to 2011-2014, but because folks are so overjoyed about this reunion and want to hype this up to be some kind of reincarnation of the 1992 lineup, they will excuse a lot of shit Axl performances this time around, or convince themselves that he's firing on all cylinders.

Reality is, from the few clips we've seen so far, he sounds no better, no worse than 2014. He sounded decent on Jungle (but he always sounds decent on that one), Seeker really suits his new, more limited range but he sounded fucking horrible on PC.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Towelie

[Len Cnut]

6 minutes ago, Towelie said:

I do think Axl will be able to get away with a lot more now that he has Slash and Duff back in the band. You just know he will sound identical to 2011-2014, but because folks are so overjoyed about this reunion and want to hype this up to be some kind of reincarnation of the 1992 lineup, they will excuse a lot of shit Axl performances this time around, or convince themselves that he's firing on all cylinders.

Reality is, from the few clips we've seen so far, he sounds no better, no worse than 2014. He sounded decent on Jungle (but he always sounds decent on that one), Seeker really suits his new, more limited range but he sounded fucking horrible on PC.

The band seem to carry it through though, the music sounds good, that old ramshackle rollicking GnR sound.  A slightly off kilter voice adds to it quite well oy reckons!

[Strange Broue]

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

Funnily enough, from the reviews I have read, and I read all I can find, people in the audiences don't typically complain about Axl's vocals. Even during the period 2011-2014 he was mostly praised or it was never affecting the complete experience to such a degree people left unsatisfied. This is mostly a problem here on this forum where we have hardcore fars who scrutinize everything about GN'R, biter fans who disagree with "nuGuns", and youtube warriors who obsess over some parts of the total concert experience.

whoa whoa stop with this "bitter fans" shit!

 

His voice sucks from 2011 now on mostly. That's a cold hard fact. You should read more casual commenters or talk to any GNR fan who is somewhat accepted the new line ups  not just people whom got paid to write a review. On the previous years (before 2011) he criticised because the "where is Slash, he is a primadonna, he is an asshole" vein... From 2011 onwards he was incresasingly criticised by his voice too

I'm a die hard, i liked CD but i can call a spade a spade.... Luckily enough the last time i saw them (2010) he was in great from vocally (that's why i don't bought the "if he is overweight, then he would sounds like shit" theory....) After that, i'm not going to pay ANY money (even if he is with Slash and Duff now) as long as he came out with a full Mickey voice.  He even pussyfooted with Duff on board on the Golden Gods so i don't buy the " Slash and Duff automatically boost him to his top game"  theory either.The reunion show luckily contained very little Mickey so i have high hopes and willing to pay money again to see GNR and looking forward to this band's future

 

[Towelie]

Just now, Len B'stard said:

The band seem to carry it through though, the music sounds good, that old ramshackle rollicking GnR sound.  A slightly off kilter voice adds to it quite well oy reckons!

Well, sounding like shit is a bit rocknroll isn't it? In that case, Axl's never been more rocknroll than he has these last 5 years.

[Len Cnut]

1 minute ago, Towelie said:

Well, sounding like shit is a bit rocknroll isn't it? In that case, Axl's never been more rocknroll than he has these last 5 years.

The problem i think is these exacting standards.  When you're standing in a fuckin' pit with a bunch of sweaty bodies hearing this fuckin' dogs bollocks rock n roll music, do you really stand there fuckin' judging degrees of voice and all that fuckin' bollocks?  I've never really given a fuck about all that, it's alright, it's good, it's actually very good, it's only on forums that these conversations matter, what matters with music in its proper context is how much it moves you and any GnR fan that says standing in the Troubador crowd listening to that band play wouldn't move em is chatting shit. 

Is it REALLY that important in the broader context, when you listen to that band, as a unit, the end product, guitar drums bass voice all added together, without stripping em for parts, do you reckon it sounds shite?  Fuckin' hell, you lot are the GnR fans, i don't even like em, i can't believe I'm having to explain this

[Towelie]

3 minutes ago, Len B'stard said:

The problem i think is these exacting standards.  When you're standing in a fuckin' pit with a bunch of sweaty bodies hearing this fuckin' dogs bollocks rock n roll music, do you really stand there fuckin' judging degrees of voice and all that fuckin' bollocks?  I've never really given a fuck about all that, it's alright, it's good, it's actually very good, it's only on forums that these conversations matter, what matters with music in its proper context is how much it moves you and any GnR fan that says standing in the Troubador crowd listening to that band play wouldn't move em is chatting shit. 

Is it REALLY that important in the broader context, when you listen to that band, as a unit, the end product, guitar drums bass voice all added together, without stripping em for parts, do you reckon it sounds shite?  Fuckin' hell, you lot are the GnR fans, i don't even like em, i can't believe I'm having to explain this

Well, I think there's some truth to that, but it's not an absolute. It sure as shit don't work on the ballads. I don't know how many YouTube videos you've watched of GNR perrformances from the last 5 years or so, but there's some outright shocking vocal performances, particularly on the big ballads like Nov Rain, This I Love, Estranged, when the loud guitars are stripped back and Axl really has to carry the performance with his vocals alone.

I know what you're saying, YouTube analysis means jackshit compared to actually being at the show and experiencing it for yourself etc, but at the same time, there are some performances that I truly cringe at they are that bad. I mean, watch this (if you can be arsed), and tell me you'd play that to your mates without wanting to curl up in a ball and die of embarrassment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzT4X6EYdKc

 

[Len Cnut]

13 minutes ago, Towelie said:

Well, I think there's some truth to that, but it's not an absolute. It sure as shit don't work on the ballads. I don't know how many YouTube videos you've watched of GNR perrformances from the last 5 years or so, but there's some outright shocking vocal performances, particularly on the big ballads like Nov Rain, This I Love, Estranged, when the loud guitars are stripped back and Axl really has to carry the performance with his vocals alone.

I know what you're saying, YouTube analysis means jackshit compared to actually being at the show and experiencing it for yourself etc, but at the same time, there are some performances that I truly cringe at they are that bad. I mean, watch this (if you can be arsed), and tell me you'd play that to your mates without wanting to curl up in a ball and die of embarrassment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzT4X6EYdKc

 

Fair dues with the ballad point i suppose but...OK, how can i put this?  Yous lot LOVE GnR right, like your favourite band?  And you never thought you'd see them onstage, playing together.  Well my favourite band are The Beatles or The Pistols.  Now, if someone told me 'Alright Len, tommorow The Beatles are playing a club gig and you got a ticket' or 'here's a vid of em on youtube', i would fuckin' jump up and lick John Lennons face...and his arse...and his armpits   Or like, when i saw The Pistols, Rotten didn't sound like Rotten in 76.  I mean it weren't bad it was just different and honestly, i never been in a crowd like that all my fuckin' life, they were proper mental.  Or another band i love and adore who i had the good fortune to see live, The Stooges (although they're an anomoly cuz they just sounded fantastic!).  Anyway point I'm getting at is these things seem like, trifles in the face of what you are getting.  Its reasonable to assume that no singer on this planet sounds like what he did 20 yrs ago...but look what you're actually getting.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Len B'stard

[RussTCB]

1 hour ago, smoke said:

I need to see video of you jogging around in a UYI Axl kit.

You just might end up seeing that if that pic of is waredrobe is any indicating. All the old jackets including the white leather one.....the flannel from Don't Cry.....etc. We're just one pair of biker shorts away from the UYI tour 

[Słash]

[Jordan Rose]

7 hours ago, D.. said:

I wonder if anyone feels betrayed like me.....

Well dude, I did read it all and I feel ya. But I was a fan back in the day and went to shows in the early 90s. The thing for me is that i'm a fan of Axl first and Guns second. I don''t even remotely care about the other members' side projects. I would rather have just Twat than all of their stuff put together from VR to Loaded, Snakepit and The Conspirators.

I don't understand how Axl has gone back on his 15-year demand that Slash publicly explain and apologise for everything he's done/said to fuck Axl over.

I mean, we know now for a FACT because of the actual contracts being released that Slash and Duff 100% lied about 'Axl wouldn't go on stage unless we signed the name over to him' as they were not on the road when they signed it. That was by far the main thing for Axl as it turned the media and public against him for the next quarter century and all Slash did was fan the flames in his passive aggressive way. We know that Axl was in the right about many things and his most hardcore fans like me have supported and backed him all these years. 

Betrayed is the word. It's like, imagine for 20 years your wife absolutely trashes her ex-husband and then with no explanation goes back to him.

It's funny because i've been called a t..r.oll for being negative about Axl in 2011-2014 because I cared passionately about Chinese and more new music. But I really don't care at all about Slash returning for a nostalgia tour so instead of trolling every happy 'reunion' thread like the Classic Era fans did to every New Guns thread for 15 years, i've posted like twice in months.

The only thing I understand about this is that a 300k act and a 50k act have combined to become a 3 million act (credit to MSL for that observation). Literally nothing else makes sense because it goes against EVERYTHING Axl has professed to stand for for so long. You've got a street punk guy like Stinson saying that Axl is the most authentic person and 100% about the music.

I've said it many times before but he was already saying in 1992 that he didn't want to cheat and bore himself or the fans by just jerking off playing Appetite every night. Well he's just spent thirteen years promoting Appetite in tandem with Chinese and now he's going to promote it some more!

Having said that, my best case scenario for this so far was that they would play Chinese songs and that Axl wouldn't wear The Disguise and phone it in like 2011-2014. Whilst it fucks me off that he will take off his glasses, hat and bandana for his most bitter, hated enemy but not for all the fans on the 2011-2014 tour, it's still a good sign.

I don't know if you read GNR Truth but the boss over there knows his shit and he's confident that the signs point to Axl still very much wanting to go ahead with 'the second half of Chinese.' Slash has played on Atlas Shrugged and he and Duff have likely played on other new songs. A new very Best Of later this year with one new song is very possible. 

In other words, if things go well and Axl and Slash stay on good terms, this tour will facillitate Axl being able to continue with his plans stated in 2014. The reality is that had he replaced BBF and Ashba with yet more new guitarists, there is no way the label would have looked at releasing a new album. They wouldn't have even been in a position to tour the states again. 

So the somewhat sad reality is that compromising with Slash was really the only way we were ever going to get any of the unreleased material, as ironic as that it. 

It's a bitter pill to swallow. Like I said, i'm an Axl fan. My biggest wish would be for Axl, Bucket, Robin and Brain to play a shitload of club shows and play Chinese and all the unreleased stuff to passionate young fans who want new music. The New Guns dream is not even on life support anymore. With a bit of luck we might get one more album and just maybe some decent live versions of new songs. 

In 2002 I used to burn tens and tens of CDs with live versions of the new songs, write 'New Guns N' Roses' on them and leave them fucking everywhere for people to find. My happiest moment was buying tickets for Rio/Lisboa 2004. Then Bucket left and it's never quite felt the same since.

I'm reading stuff over at truth suggesting that any unreleased songs to feature Slash will inevitably have all previous lead parts removed. I really hope that's not the case and that anything by Robin and Bucket that equals e.g. the Twat and TIL solos is left alone.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Jordan Rose

[buzzsaw]

I thought it said running with tight shorts and a banana. I stopped reading at that point. 

[Jordan Rose]

6 hours ago, D.. said:

I wonder if anyone feels betrayed like me.....

Well dude, I did read it all and I feel ya. But I was a fan back in the day and went to shows in the early 90s. The thing for me is that i'm a fan of Axl first and Guns second. I don''t even remotely care about the other members' side projects. I would rather have just Twat than all of their stuff put together from VR to Loaded, Snakepit and The Conspirators.

I don't understand how Axl has gone back on his 15-year demand that Slash publicly explain and apologise for everything he's done/said to fuck Axl over.

I mean, we know now for a FACT because of the actual contracts being released that Slash and Duff 100% lied about 'Axl wouldn't go on stage unless we signed the name over to him' as they were not on the road when they signed it. That was by far the main thing for Axl as it turned the media and public against him for the next quarter century and all Slash did was fan the flames in his passive aggressive way. We know that Axl was in the right about many things and his most hardcore fans like me have supported and backed him all these years. 

Betrayed is the word. It's like, imagine for 20 years your wife absolutely trashes her ex-husband and then with no explanation goes back to him.

It's funny because i've been called a hooray for tolerance! for being negative about Axl in 2011-2014 because I cared passionately about Chinese and more new music. But I really don't care at all about Slash returning for a nostalgia tour so instead of trolling every happy 'reunion' thread like the Classic Era fans did to every New Guns thread for 15 years, i've posted like twice in months.

The only thing I understand about this is that a 300k act and a 50k act have combined to become a 3 million act (credit to MSL for that observation). Literally nothing else makes sense because it goes against EVERYTHING Axl has professed to stand for for so long. You've got a street punk guy like Stinson saying that Axl is the most authentic person and 100% about the music.

I've said it many times before but he was already saying in 1992 that he didn't want to cheat and bore himself or the fans by just jerking off playing Appetite every night. Well he's just spent thirteen years promoting Appetite in tandem with Chinese and now he's going to promote it some more!

Having said that, my best case scenario for this so far was that they would play Chinese songs and that Axl wouldn't wear The Disguise and phone it in like 2011-2014. Whilst it fucks me off that he will take off his glasses, hat and bandana for his most bitter, hated enemy but not for all the fans on the 2011-2014 tour, it's still a good sign.

I don't know if you read GNR Truth but the boss over there knows his shit and he's confident that the signs point to Axl still very much wanting to go ahead with 'the second half of Chinese.' Slash has played on Atlas Shrugged and he and Duff have likely played on other new songs. A new very Best Of later this year with one new song is very possible. 

In other words, if things go well and Axl and Slash stay on good terms, this tour will facillitate Axl being able to continue with his plans stated in 2014. The reality is that had he replaced BBF and Ashba with yet more new guitarists, there is no way the label would have looked at releasing a new album. They wouldn't have even been in a position to tour the states again. 

So the somewhat sad reality is that compromising with Slash was really the only way we were ever going to get any of the unreleased material, as ironic as that it. 

It's a bitter pill to swallow. Like I said, i'm an Axl fan. My biggest wish would be for Axl, Bucket, Robin and Brain to play a shitload of club shows and play Chinese and all the unreleased stuff to passionate young fans who want new music. The New Guns dream is not even on life support anymore. With a bit of luck we might get one more album and just maybe some decent live versions of new songs. 

In 2002 I used to burn tens and tens of CDs with live versions of the new songs, write 'New Guns N' Roses' on them and leave them fucking everywhere for people to find. My happiest moment was buying tickets for Rio/Lisboa 2004. Then Bucket left and it's never quite felt the same since.

I'm reading stuff over at truth suggesting that any unreleased songs to feature Slash will inevitably have all previous lead parts removed. I really hope that's not the case and that anything by Robin and Bucket that equals e.g. the Twat and TIL solos is left alone.

 

Also, I do understand why this thread would be moved out of the main forum and wouldn't even be surprised if Team Brazil or whoever asked to keep stuff like this out. But it's sadly ironic that for two decades, fans and supporters of Axl and him releasing and playing new music had to put up with being endlessly berated by Old Guns supporters but now the tables have turned..........

[alfierose]

@Jordan Rose TB do not ask us to censor anything, just to be clear on that.

I chose to move this because Civil War is the place for more robust arguments about things people are unhappy with. I think it's okay for people to hold different points of view but the main section is full right now with about 90+% of members really buzzing for the shows and we want to keep that vibe as much as possible running up to the weekend.

[Słash]

You know who is feeling betrayed?

TOMMY STINSON!

[Jordan Rose]

18 minutes ago, alfierose said:

@Jordan Rose TB do not ask us to censor anything, just to be clear on that.

I chose to move this because Civil War is the place for more robust arguments about things people are unhappy with. I think it's okay for people to hold different points of view but the main section is full right now with about 90+% of members really buzzing for the shows and we want to keep that vibe as much as possible running up to the weekend.

Totally understand and appreciate that  Not dissing the moderating. 

5 minutes ago, Slash787 said:

You know who is feeling betrayed?

TOMMY STINSON!

Axl stayed loyal to Tommy in 2006 and 2009 when he was a pain in the ass and when people in the camp wanted Duff back. Tommy repaid that by choosing The Mats over Guns. Besides, he's been real nice about the whole thing and gave Axl a shoutout for the AC/DC gig. 

[killuridols]

At this point, I think there's no manager in the world who can handle Axl.

Look at what happened with Irving Azoff.. Isnt that guy like the most powerful guy in the music industry? He wanted the reunion but Axl wasn't in the right spiritual? place for it yet. Years later, it happens. Azoff was right all the way?

TB are the only ones who will put up with Axl because, just like Azoff said, he will do as he pleases. I also had the impression he was determined and wanted to remain in the top of music industry like other icons but he gave up at some point. Don't know why.. Maybe he got tired of not having it his way and it came that moment he realized HE HAD TO reunite with Slash and Duff.

Also, CD was toured like 4 times, I dont know of any other band that promotes an album for years and years. Now that it wore off and he doesn't have another album to tour, he goes for reunion.

I swear I don't understand this guy anymore, but I'm happy GN'R are back in the spotlight and will play stadiums. I'm concerned with what's going to happen afterwards... I remember 2006 was a big year for Axl, he was in excellent shape, his voice was amazing, YET he didn't release CD that year and couldn't take advantage of all the media attention he was getting. I'm concerned he's not gonna take advantage of having Slash and Duff back in the band and at least try to release new music with them.

If Slash and Duff leave the band after this tour, that will be the real end of Guns N' Roses.

[AxlRoseCDII]

8 hours ago, D.. said:

I hope Axl will really surprise us, with a new album coming, with really risky songs (like playing Coma live), that he will invite Ashba and Bumble on some dates because they really deserve it

 

Wh...wh...what? Are you mad? 

[dalsh327]

Appetite for Democracy wrapped up the ChiDem era. 

Slash and Axl didn't see eye to eye and refused to do each others songs 20 years ago, but you're talking about 10 years of things building up between them at the time, and having to deal with the change in music at the time.

Slash can now dig into Axl's songs with Duff from the ChiDem era and make them sound more like GNR songs, I'm sure Slash has tons of riffs in his head. Now he has The Conspirators if Axl doesn't want his songs. Duff and Izzy have worked together over 20 years, Izzy in the studio for 2 weeks is plenty. Richard's going to bring songs in, plus if Melissa is in the band, that means Brain's going to be around. Then all you have left from ChiDem era is maybe Robin...again, 2 weeks in the studio, whether it's his home studio or working with the band. 

Universal and Interscope will support this album WAY more and the guy running Interscope now wants to see GNR kick ass, because this could be the last album...or two...or three. Axl has maintained putting a new album out, but he's not going to give it away just because of "the state of the music industry". 

Doing a big stadium tour is about money, but also making sure as many people get to see them as possible in case this is a one-off tour. 

[Jordan Rose]

Just now, Oldest Goat said:

Imagine if you were married to a woman who for 20 years absolutely trashed her ex-husband and you were foolish enough to not realise she still wanted to get on his dick?

Also, really? Really? Another person using a relationship with a woman as an example for how they feel toward Axl? Fucking. Hell. If I were him and I went to this site and read this shit I'd do a fucking 180 mate!

It's just a basic analogy and it makes sense. I'm not saying the relationship between a fan and an version of a band is literally the same as between spouses. Jesus.

Axl's read my stuff on the boards defending his ass plenty of times over the years. 

 

[LADoll77]

3 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Imagine if you were married to a woman who for 20 years absolutely trashed her ex-husband and you were foolish enough to not realise she still wanted to get on his dick?

Also, really? Really? Another person using a relationship with a woman as an example for how they feel toward Axl? Fucking. Hell. If I were him and I went to this site and read this shit I'd do a fucking 180 mate!

I had same reaction.

so fucking creepy.

[WhazUp]

I was very disappointed in GNR up until this year, this Troubadour show is the best thing to happen to GNR since 1993.  It has rekindled my interest in GNR and I am actually excited to see where it will go

Axl may vocally have the same tendencies as the past couple of years but the fire and intensity and energy he put into the Troubadour show based on the clips we have seen, make the vocals sound way better.  

Edited April 5, 2016 by WhazUp

[Nosaj Thing]

9 hours ago, LA_0013 said:

No offense, but the whole process of reconciliation and mending deep wounds is infinately more important than you being able to go out jogging in your bandana while listening to CD2

[D..]

On 5/4/2016 at 3:23 PM, Jordan Rose said:

Well dude, I did read it all and I feel ya. But I was a fan back in the day and went to shows in the early 90s. The thing for me is that i'm a fan of Axl first and Guns second. I don''t even remotely care about the other members' side projects. I would rather have just Twat than all of their stuff put together from VR to Loaded, Snakepit and The Conspirators.

I don't understand how Axl has gone back on his 15-year demand that Slash publicly explain and apologise for everything he's done/said to fuck Axl over.

I mean, we know now for a FACT because of the actual contracts being released that Slash and Duff 100% lied about 'Axl wouldn't go on stage unless we signed the name over to him' as they were not on the road when they signed it. That was by far the main thing for Axl as it turned the media and public against him for the next quarter century and all Slash did was fan the flames in his passive aggressive way. We know that Axl was in the right about many things and his most hardcore fans like me have supported and backed him all these years. 

Betrayed is the word. It's like, imagine for 20 years your wife absolutely trashes her ex-husband and then with no explanation goes back to him.

It's funny because i've been called a t..r.oll for being negative about Axl in 2011-2014 because I cared passionately about Chinese and more new music. But I really don't care at all about Slash returning for a nostalgia tour so instead of trolling every happy 'reunion' thread like the Classic Era fans did to every New Guns thread for 15 years, i've posted like twice in months.

The only thing I understand about this is that a 300k act and a 50k act have combined to become a 3 million act (credit to MSL for that observation). Literally nothing else makes sense because it goes against EVERYTHING Axl has professed to stand for for so long. You've got a street punk guy like Stinson saying that Axl is the most authentic person and 100% about the music.

I've said it many times before but he was already saying in 1992 that he didn't want to cheat and bore himself or the fans by just jerking off playing Appetite every night. Well he's just spent thirteen years promoting Appetite in tandem with Chinese and now he's going to promote it some more!

Having said that, my best case scenario for this so far was that they would play Chinese songs and that Axl wouldn't wear The Disguise and phone it in like 2011-2014. Whilst it fucks me off that he will take off his glasses, hat and bandana for his most bitter, hated enemy but not for all the fans on the 2011-2014 tour, it's still a good sign.

I don't know if you read GNR Truth but the boss over there knows his shit and he's confident that the signs point to Axl still very much wanting to go ahead with 'the second half of Chinese.' Slash has played on Atlas Shrugged and he and Duff have likely played on other new songs. A new very Best Of later this year with one new song is very possible. 

In other words, if things go well and Axl and Slash stay on good terms, this tour will facillitate Axl being able to continue with his plans stated in 2014. The reality is that had he replaced BBF and Ashba with yet more new guitarists, there is no way the label would have looked at releasing a new album. They wouldn't have even been in a position to tour the states again. 

So the somewhat sad reality is that compromising with Slash was really the only way we were ever going to get any of the unreleased material, as ironic as that it. 

It's a bitter pill to swallow. Like I said, i'm an Axl fan. My biggest wish would be for Axl, Bucket, Robin and Brain to play a shitload of club shows and play Chinese and all the unreleased stuff to passionate young fans who want new music. The New Guns dream is not even on life support anymore. With a bit of luck we might get one more album and just maybe some decent live versions of new songs. 

In 2002 I used to burn tens and tens of CDs with live versions of the new songs, write 'New Guns N' Roses' on them and leave them fucking everywhere for people to find. My happiest moment was buying tickets for Rio/Lisboa 2004. Then Bucket left and it's never quite felt the same since.

I'm reading stuff over at truth suggesting that any unreleased songs to feature Slash will inevitably have all previous lead parts removed. I really hope that's not the case and that anything by Robin and Bucket that equals e.g. the Twat and TIL solos is left alone.

 

 

Read it all. You are a rare kind of human being... No surprise I can find that on a Gn'R board, I suspect some true hardcore Gn'R fans are just like you, this is very cool. Making free CD's in 2002 and dispatching them randomly is a genius idea. Wish there were more people like you.

 

Whether or not Axl has seen what you've done doesn't really matter. What matters is that you've given joy and happiness to people, even if it's just a few.

Sadly in life, most people act in groups and think they're so smart, and bring nothing to the world. These people are rats to me and they'll end up having a garbage life. Doesn't matter, they'll die eventually and nobody will remember them.

 

Never forget what you have in your heart mate. I feel for people like you (no homo ahah). I feel betrayed, you feel betrayed, let's just keep being who we are: generous people with a heart, and balls. Eventually what really matters I guess is what Axl, the Gn'R experience as brought us, keep that in us, and try to make the world a better place the best we can, never selling out.

 

I'm happy to meet some people like you on boards, my original post was going in all directions, it's not Shakespeare, it doesn't matter much, but intelligent and generous people feel me, I feel you, so that was worth it,  that's all that matters to me. Have a nice day comrade.