Tour Lithographs and show specific artwork

[facefirst]

6 hours ago, MarHin22 said:

 

I was given the green light to share these emails between you, Geoff May, and Fernando Lebeis, Gn'R manager, as there is always two sides of a story. I don't know how to insert images of the email screenshots so I'm just going to quote here. But I can send them to a Mod here for them to see them and post them.

To begin Fernando initiated contact with you as soon as heard of your complaints on social media:

August 11, 2021:

"Hey man, just got a heads up on some GNR related issues? Can you fill me in?"

 

You responded to him asking who he was and he had to tell you he was Gn'Rs manager.

Then you basically told him that you were expecting to get 20 - 50 proofs to make $30k to $60k by selling them. You saw that a Boston litho got sold for about $600 and you decided to make lots of money as you saw how high that went for:
 

".... So with submission and approval fees I basically cleared $3k for 3 months of work.  If I had known going in that there would be no artist proofs I would have passed on the job.  In the past Global has always given me anywhere between 20-50 proofs for me to sell on my own.  All numbered as proofs and signed so there’s no confusion that these were not purchased at the venue.  This has ruined my relationship with Global and it doesn’t really reflect well on the band either because I was told by  Charles Dooher that the band wouldn’t authorize proofs anyways.

I would imagine the band wouldn’t be too keen on going out on the road if in the end each member was clearing less than flipping burgers at McDonald’s.  So I was looking to clear anywhere from $30k-60k on proofs (the Boston one is going for $500-600 already, which is nuts!) which would have helped me financially get back on track since Covid had trashed my last almost 2 years.  Now it looks like I get basically nothing while everyone else profits off of my work."

 

In Fernando's reply to you (below), he mentioned exactly why they don't authorize artists to auction off the art for their own gain. Gn'R wants fans to get them at fair prices (and hence the reason why since Denver, lithos are being sold inside only so ebayers won't get access to these for profit ). His response to you was not rude.  He stated exactly why he couldn't authorize what you were asking for (for those that don't know, Charles works for Global) :

August 12, 2021:

"Hey there, sorry for the delay.  As you know, we are on tour.   I spoke with Global and got their side of things, as we know, there's always two sides of every disagreement.    I don't recall ever giving the ok for artists to auction off the work we commissioned for their own gain, we of course support the artists and have no issues sharing credit etc and work on finding other means to make it profitable for you the artist and other artists like yourself.  However, these prints are for the fans and we charge what we charge on the show and limit the purchase of the lithos for its specialty.  If the fan which purchased the piece at face value decides to sell it, then it's their business.   

I did also reviewed some of the words you used against the band which is your right, however I find them baseless and rude.    

Charles also shared your comments to him directly, which I find it extremely offensive.  I am certain we could of found a way to remedy the situation, however I feel too much negativity has ensued and unfortunately it is best to cut ties.  

I do really like your art and I am sorry of how everything fell apart."

 

And your response to him was basically telling Fernando to watch for the prints you were going to do:

" Oh, and I bet you’re heartbroken about how things worked out. Such a shame you don’t have to dish some money out to the artists.l, or even mention their name.

Stay tuned for my prints."

 

So I don't see anywhere how he was rude to you at all. You just didn't like the answer.
 You wanted prints to make money, he said no because fans should get them for $50. Other artists as Arian Buhler have the same contracts/agreements that you have with Global to make art for Gn'R. So it's not like you're being excluded out of something other artists for Gn'R are getting. Also, you have done work for Gn'R in years prior when the agreement was the same, and now all of the sudden you say you didn't know you couldn't do APs??   Please. 

Not sure who you are but those are very incomplete transcripts. But since Fernando and Global want to go this route I’m good with that. Much more to come. Stay tuned….

[MarHin22]

36 minutes ago, facefirst said:

Not sure who you are but those are very incomplete transcripts. But since Fernando and Global want to go this route I’m good with that. Much more to come. Stay tuned….

I shared the important stuff about your plans to make money from fans. And I shared Fernando's complete response to you.

And now it seems you are threatening the band and Global, the company who hired you?

Keep burning bridges if that's the way you think you need go about all this.
 

[facefirst]

34 minutes ago, MarHin22 said:

I shared the important stuff about your plans to make money from fans. And I shared Fernando's complete response to you.

And now it seems you are threatening the band and Global, the company who hired you?

Keep burning bridges if that's the way you think you need go about all this.
 

Plans to “make money” from the fans?  I’ve ALWAYS sold ANY APs at way below the going rate because I actually want the fans to have the art at a decent price. But yeah, fuck me for making a living. I guess I should have just been content on the $2500ish I made off of the artwork over 3 months. I guess I was clouded by greed. 
 

Edit:  I’ve made no threats to anyone. You’re talking out of school on a subject that you know nothing about. So Fernando fed you some emails and now you’re the fucking authority on what’s right and wrong and how everything went down?

I made my experience known in public. It’s amazing how many artists hit me up with similar problems from Global. So it’s not just me, my man. 

As far as burning bridges - I’m not interested in working with bands/companies that don’t value artists. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by facefirst

[janrichmond]

2 hours ago, facefirst said:

Not sure who you are but those are very incomplete transcripts. But since Fernando and Global want to go this route I’m good with that. Much more to come. Stay tuned….

Do you have the complete transcripts? That would help clear the issue, maybe

 

[backinblack]

2 hours ago, facefirst said:

Not sure who you are but those are very incomplete transcripts. But since Fernando and Global want to go this route I’m good with that. Much more to come. Stay tuned….

Are you drunk? YOU were the one who decided to make all of this public by going to a public fan forum to whine like a little child because even though you've done work for GNR since 2016 and you still haven't realized that NO artists get artist prints from Guns n' Roses. You did the design for Atlanta and Arlington at the start of NITL in 2016 and it has taken you five years to realize this? Or are you still waiting for those 2016 artist prints to arrive any day now?

If receiving artist prints was in your contract and you didn't get them then sue them. If they have not lived up to the contract you signed then sue them. If not then shut the fuck up. You came to whine in front of fans because you thought we would be on your side and maybe we were at the start but you were planning on making more money from us per litho than GNR. Go on I dare you to say you were going to sell them for $50 a pop. Then you run around picking fights and insulting members. Nobody owes you a living. Oh no the company I did work for made more money than me boo fucking hoo. Walmart average employee salary is like 30k a year and they made 500 billion last year so I suppose all 1.5 million of their workers should go bitch about it online. Welcome to the world of employment.

 

[RussTCB]

I did not have this thread being the most interesting thread of 2021 on my GN'R bingo card. 

[AxlIsGod.]

4 minutes ago, RussTCB said:

I did not have this thread being the most interesting thread of 2021 on my GN'R bingo card. 

I show up for interesting discussion on the designs as each litho is revealed. I stay for the drama.

[ZoSoRose]

Wow

i was in the wrong on this it seems. Sorry, Fernando 

[Lio]

I'm no expert, just a fan who loves the idea of the lithos and having a few myself,  but it seems a bit odd to accuse GNR of greed in this instance. If they sell 150 lithos for a show, that's a total of 7500 EUR that comes in. Then there's all the costs. Hardly a money cow. If there's one thing they're doing for fans and NOT out of greed, it's the lithos, I think 

[ZoSoRose]

Does anyone want to buy an AP of this poster I did for GNR? I can’t put the band name in it, but it’s still a real bargain! $500!

[Spike Killer]

11 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

Does anyone want to buy an AP of this poster I did for GNR? I can’t put the band name in it, but it’s still a real bargain! $500!

 

What is the joke?  

[ZoSoRose]

12 minutes ago, Spike Killer said:

What is the joke?  

I’m being serious, I did that

[Spike Killer]

3 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

I’m being serious, I did that

Very nice.  I recommend opening a store and selling your work.  

Like these people:

https://statusserigraph.com/, https://statusserigraph.com/collections/posters

or

http://masthaystudios.bigcartel.com/

 

 

[ZoSoRose]

7 minutes ago, Spike Killer said:

Very nice.  I recommend opening a store and selling your work.  

Like these people:

https://statusserigraph.com/, https://statusserigraph.com/collections/posters

or

http://masthaystudios.bigcartel.com/

 

 

Thank you, here’s another I did

 

[facefirst]

5 hours ago, janrichmond said:

Do you have the complete transcripts? That would help clear the issue, maybe

 

I do. Compiling it all and will be making it all public for anyone interested. 

[RussTCB]

13 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

Thank you, here’s another I did

 

I don't want to accuse you of anything, but I feel like I've seen some of these before.... 

[MarHin22]

6 hours ago, janrichmond said:

Do you have the complete transcripts? That would help clear the issue, maybe

 

Here is the complete email Geoff sent to Fernando, right after Fernando explained that he was GnR's manager when he was asked who he was. The middle part I was I shared above:

"Ah ok. My apologies. I don’t normally deal with bands directly, so I’m out of the loop on who manages who.


Well, the short version of the story is that for the last 3 months I’ve been working my ass off on GNR lithos (tees too, but that part was fine) only to find out that now I’m not receiving any artist proofs.  


I did the art for Boston, Jersey, Denver and had submissions pending for Columbus (which followed the sports card theme that fans seem to be stoked about and I have no doubt would be approved), Baltimore and was asked to do one for Atlantic City and Vegas (which was an awesome concept that tied up the sports card ones).


So with submission and approval fees I basically cleared $3k for 3 months of work.  If I had known going in that there would be no artist proofs I would have passed on the job.  In the past Global has always given me anywhere between 20-50 proofs for me to sell on my own.  All numbered as proofs and signed so there’s no confusion that these were not purchased at the venue.  This has ruined my relationship with Global and it doesn’t really reflect well on the band either because I was told by  Charles Dooher that the band wouldn’t authorize proofs anyways.


I would imagine the band wouldn’t be too keen on going out on the road if in the end each member was clearing less than flipping burgers at McDonald’s.  So I was looking to clear anywhere from $30k-60k on proofs (the Boston one is going for $500-600 already, which is nuts!) which would have helped me financially get back on track since Covid had trashed my last almost 2 years.  Now it looks like I get basically nothing while everyone else profits off of my work.


The whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth and I now need to figure out some sort of way to recoup money for my time.  


I’ve been designing merch for the band for about 15 years now. My stuff sells (and sells out) regularly. It’s disheartening that this is happening, especially with a band that has been my absolute favorite since I was a 4th grader in 1987."

 

After that,  Fernando did not reply right away, so then Geoff sent this other one:

" Why contact me if you have no intentions of following up?


I know you’re not part of Global but you’re complicit in their activities. Does the band really not give a shit about the artists putting out their merch? Have they really strayed that far that they’re above that? Hey man, at least reply to me and just tell me to fuck off and that GNR doesn’t care. I can accept that. I just always thought that they were a band for artists. Growing up I thought they were the middle finger to society. But maybe they’re just a part of the machine. That’s fine, just tell me."

 

 

And there were like 5 other similar emails until Fernando replied the next day.  Fernando's entire reply is what I shared above.

If Geoff wants to share all the emails, he should go right ahead. He came here to try to gain sympathy by playing victim, while he was never mistreated.   They were even courteous him even though he said bad things about them (Gn'R and Global) on social media and here.  He saw how high one of his designs were selling for on eBay and wanted to cash on that and didn't like the answer he got.
 I don't see other GnR designers complaining on social media about not getting APs as they know what the agreement is. 

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by MarHin22

[Coma16]

Geoff made it sound like he got 25-50 APs for his previous GNR lithos. Was this not the case? This is really between him and Globo, and it is unfortunate that he's trying to throw Fernando under the bus.

[ZoSoRose]

Jokes aside, I do feel for you, @facefirst. However, there is no way you didn't agree to do this work without a proper agreement regarding compensation. You absolutely should get paid a fair amount for your work, but this should of course be decided prior to taking the job on. I could be mistaken but I do not even recall a lot of artists selling GNR APs on their site. The only one that comes to mind was Sara Ray in 2016 and she offered 3 variants ranging from $50-$150 depending on the amount printed. There may have been a few others, but is that something you did on the past tour legs? Even if so, why quote secondary market prices? Selling APs for those numbers would be obscene.

I am all for calling Fernando out, and I enjoy a good TB roast, but in this case, I have to say it appears he really didn't do a lot wrong. In fact, he even last emailed you less than 2 weeks ago. This appears to be between you and the merchandise firm, and they are the ones that you probably agreed to do the job with. I know it is tough out there, but as you said, if you weren't happy with the compensation you shouldn't have taken the job. There should have been no reason to expect extra compensation (APs in this case) if it was not spelled out.

I can empathize that is frustrating to see your work go for hundreds of dollars a print, and it is natural that you want to cash in on that... but those prices are because they are GNR lithographs offered at GNR shows. This has been the case since 2016. That is not to say you are bad artist or that your art isn't impressive, it is just the reality with these specific prints.

The Cleveland design is a different topic, though

 

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by ZoSoRose

[Kylewhodat]

13 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

Jokes aside, I do feel for you, @facefirst. However, there is no way you didn't agree to do this work without a proper agreement regarding compensation. You absolutely should get paid a fair amount for your work, but this should of course be decided prior to taking the job on. I could be mistaken but I do not even recall a lot of artists selling GNR APs on their site. The only one that comes to mind was Sara Ray in 2016 and she offered 3 variants ranging from $50-$150 depending on the amount printed. There may have been a few others, but is that something you did on the past tour legs? Even if so, why quote secondary market prices? Selling APs for those numbers would be obscene.

I am all for calling Fernando out, and I enjoy a good TB roast, but in this case, I have to say it appears he really didn't do a lot wrong. In fact, he even last emailed you less than 2 weeks ago. This appears to be between you and the merchandise firm, and they are the ones that you probably agreed to do the job with. I know it is tough out there, but as you said, if you weren't happy with the compensation you shouldn't have taken the job. There should have been no reason to expect extra compensation (APs in this case) if it was not spelled out.

I can empathize that is frustrating to see your work go for hundreds of dollars a print, and it is natural that you want to cash in on that... but those prices are because they are GNR lithographs offered at GNR shows. This has been the case since 2016. That is not to say you are bad artist or that your art isn't impressive, it is just the reality with these specific prints.

The Cleveland design is a different topic, though

 

 

no artist from NITL did any artist prints. sara ray did variants, not APs which are completely different. she sold them on her official etsy store and she got all of this approved in the contract she signed.

[MarHin22]

2 hours ago, ZoSoRose said:

Jokes aside, I do feel for you, @facefirst. However, there is no way you didn't agree to do this work without a proper agreement regarding compensation. You absolutely should get paid a fair amount for your work, but this should of course be decided prior to taking the job on. I could be mistaken but I do not even recall a lot of artists selling GNR APs on their site. The only one that comes to mind was Sara Ray in 2016 and she offered 3 variants ranging from $50-$150 depending on the amount printed. There may have been a few others, but is that something you did on the past tour legs? Even if so, why quote secondary market prices? Selling APs for those numbers would be obscene.

I am all for calling Fernando out, and I enjoy a good TB roast, but in this case, I have to say it appears he really didn't do a lot wrong. In fact, he even last emailed you less than 2 weeks ago. This appears to be between you and the merchandise firm, and they are the ones that you probably agreed to do the job with. I know it is tough out there, but as you said, if you weren't happy with the compensation you shouldn't have taken the job. There should have been no reason to expect extra compensation (APs in this case) if it was not spelled out.

I can empathize that is frustrating to see your work go for hundreds of dollars a print, and it is natural that you want to cash in on that... but those prices are because they are GNR lithographs offered at GNR shows. This has been the case since 2016. That is not to say you are bad artist or that your art isn't impressive, it is just the reality with these specific prints.

The Cleveland design is a different topic, though

 

 

From what I heard, Sara Ray was the only one who got permission to do variants only because she knew Slash.  So it was part of her agreement. I believe that was the only artwork she did for Gn'R.

And I agree with what you said. 🤘

[Fernando]

5 hours ago, ZoSoRose said:

Wow

i was in the wrong on this it seems. Sorry, Fernando 

I only came here for this. I just wanted to quote it so it's forever kept.

 

[RussTCB]

1 minute ago, Fernando said:

I only came here for this. I just wanted to quote it so it's forever kept.

 

Haha, this thread keeps giving. Well done! 

[Stay.Of.Execution]

1 minute ago, Fernando said:

I only came here for this. I just wanted to quote it so it's forever kept.

 

We need new toy trucks!

[Fernando]

1 minute ago, Stay.Of.Execution said:

We need new toy trucks!

And a new signature!