Paradox of GN'R popularity

[ludurigan]

2 hours ago, AlexC said:

"As if they were GN'R"

So by your logic any band that has had classic eras and, in a lot of cases, classic and critically acclaimed albums which featured differing lineups doesn't count as the band? So hugely successful and popular albums and eras of bands such as: AC/DC, Metallica, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Iron Maiden, Alice in Chains, The Rolling Stones, Van Halen etc. Some of their most iconic and best work wasn't them? Just because the lineups were different?

That. Is fucking ridiculous.

 

Its about the key elements

The people who write and perform the songs in a certain way that can not be replaced.

Some people are unique and cant be replaced. In GNR, no one can really replace the five guys.

But if you need to draw a line, there are two guys who can be replaced in GNR.

The most replaceable guy is obviously Duff. His bass is not a key element live or in studio and his songwriting is nice but not something that the band cant do without. I would say that quite a few bass guys could replace him without changing too much how the band sounds.

Steven also can be replaced as it was proven in 1991. Did it sound worse with Matt? Yes. Steven has a unique sound? Yes. Is he the best drummer ever? Yes. But it still sounded like GNR without him -- so one can say that it was GNR.

But if you remove Axl, Izzy or Slash, forget about it.

It wont be GNR.

Any line up without Axl, Izzy or Slash is not GNR and will never be.

===

About the other bands you mentioned, its actually irrelevant to any GNR discussion.

 

[EvanG]

10 hours ago, coolranchdressing! said:

Ok so they hit the height in late 93 but within 2 years (or a year) it was over. The "don't wanna miss a thing" was not considered cool but then again I was a late teen by then so maybe they were "hip" ? By the new generation of Tweens coming of age. By then my generation saw them as sellout just like the 70s generation saw their 80s revival as selling out (cheesy videos/walk this way). So I guess it depends what was in vogue when you're 12-15.  (Personally I like aero early stuff and their cheesy 80s and Alicia Silverstone stuff)

But you're wrong when you say that it was over by the mid 90s. I was calling you out on the fact that you said they died out after 1992, not on whether they were cool or not in the late 90s. That's a whole different discussion. Even in the early 2000s Aerosmith were still relevant. I remember hearing that ''Jaded'' song with Mila Kunis in the video everywhere... maybe they weren't scoring hits like back in the mid 90s but for an old dinosaur band like them they were still quite popular.

I'm not the biggest Aerosmith fan per se, but I still really liked the songs I heard from them in the late 90s and early 2000s. Whether they were cool or not with the music police, I really don't care. 

Edited March 30, 2017 by EvanG

[EvanG]

9 hours ago, RONIN said:

Yeah, they were definitely relevant in the 90's. Those Alicia Silverstone songs put them on the map for 90's teens - I was introduced to them through those videos. The older teens were always watching those videos in my sports club. I was 15 when that Armageddon song came out and we were all listening to it in school. I don't know if it's a geographical thing, but I grew up in Cali and the kids who were into rock music were still listening to Nirvana, Pantera and Metallica or jumping into alt-metal bands and later nu-metal (shudder). Some were also fans of post-grunge bands like Bush and the punkers were listening to Green Day and Blink 182.

I still like all those 90's Aerosmith songs. 

 

I'm from Europe and I was introduced to them by those videos too. They were on MTV here constantly. I turned 16 the year that Armageddon song came out and it was really succesful but I didn't really care for it, but I liked Aerosmith, I even remember getting their Get A Grip album in 1994. I was already way more in GnR by 1994 and when they started fading away around that time, I started to embrace those Seattle bands and the more alternative guitar bands.

I still like those 90s Aerosmith songs too, watching those Alicia Silverstone videos on youtube totally takes me back to my childhood. Ahh... a simpler time!

[wasted]

I think I got Pump while waiting for UYI. Get a Grip was the last Fairburn album then there was Nine Lives and Just Push Play. 

[AlexC]

12 hours ago, ludurigan said:

 

Its about the key elements

The people who write and perform the songs in a certain way that can not be replaced.

Some people are unique and cant be replaced. In GNR, no one can really replace the five guys.

But if you need to draw a line, there are two guys who can be replaced in GNR.

The most replaceable guy is obviously Duff. His bass is not a key element live or in studio and his songwriting is nice but not something that the band cant do without. I would say that quite a few bass guys could replace him without changing too much how the band sounds.

Steven also can be replaced as it was proven in 1991. Did it sound worse with Matt? Yes. Steven has a unique sound? Yes. Is he the best drummer ever? Yes. But it still sounded like GNR without him -- so one can say that it was GNR.

But if you remove Axl, Izzy or Slash, forget about it.

It wont be GNR.

Any line up without Axl, Izzy or Slash is not GNR and will never be.

===

About the other bands you mentioned, its actually irrelevant to any GNR discussion.

 

What are you even basing who's replaceable on? You can't just cherry pick members. With that logic, if someone came along who sounded identical to Izzy live it would then again be GN'R?

Madness.

[AlexC]

@ludurigan Guns N' Roses' level of popularity since they became world renowned is solely based off of Axl and Slash both being in the band at the same time. Izzy or Steven coming back full time or even Duff leaving won't affect that at all.

[EvanG]

13 hours ago, ludurigan said:

 

Its about the key elements

The people who write and perform the songs in a certain way that can not be replaced.

Some people are unique and cant be replaced. In GNR, no one can really replace the five guys.

But if you need to draw a line, there are two guys who can be replaced in GNR.

The most replaceable guy is obviously Duff. His bass is not a key element live or in studio and his songwriting is nice but not something that the band cant do without. I would say that quite a few bass guys could replace him without changing too much how the band sounds.

Steven also can be replaced as it was proven in 1991. Did it sound worse with Matt? Yes. Steven has a unique sound? Yes. Is he the best drummer ever? Yes. But it still sounded like GNR without him -- so one can say that it was GNR.

But if you remove Axl, Izzy or Slash, forget about it.

It wont be GNR.

Any line up without Axl, Izzy or Slash is not GNR and will never be.

===

About the other bands you mentioned, its actually irrelevant to any GNR discussion.

 

When it comes down to live shows, Izzy is just as replacable as Steven. Although one could argue that Steven's drumming was a big part of the band's sound and even though Izzy is a good rhythm guitarist, he doesn't have a unique sound. For examle, I don't think too many people can tell on the live era cd on which songs it's Izzy and which it's Gilby playing purely by listening to the rhythm guitar parts. Of course when it comes down to writing songs, it is undisputable how important Izzy is.

Also, I don't know if this is a typo or what, but you seriously consider Steven the best drummer ever? Dude....

[xBrownstonex]

On 29.3.2017 at 11:36 AM, Silverburst80 said:

Didn't they once say Dylan sold out cause he started playing an electric, betraying his folk roots?. Can't please everybody i guess.

Yea

 

[ludurigan]

12 hours ago, AlexC said:

What are you even basing who's replaceable on? You can't just cherry pick members. With that logic, if someone came along who sounded identical to Izzy live it would then again be GN'R?

Madness.

all my arguments are based on 28 years of listening to gnr

there is no one capable of playing llike izzy, playing like slash or singing like axl

[ludurigan]

12 hours ago, AlexC said:

@ludurigan Guns N' Roses' level of popularity since they became world renowned is solely based off of Axl and Slash both being in the band at the same time. Izzy or Steven coming back full time or even Duff leaving won't affect that at all.

"since they became world renowed"

i wonder how they become "world renowed"

was it because axl, izzy, slash, duff, steven wrote, recorded and toured the best rock songs ever and thus became the best band ever?

please let me know i am really curious about it

[ludurigan]

12 hours ago, EvanG said:

When it comes down to live shows, Izzy is just as replacable as Steven. Although one could argue that Steven's drumming was a big part of the band's sound and even though Izzy is a good rhythm guitarist, he doesn't have a unique sound. For examle, I don't think too many people can tell on the live era cd on which songs it's Izzy and which it's Gilby playing purely by listening to the rhythm guitar parts. Of course when it comes down to writing songs, it is undisputable how important Izzy is.

Also, I don't know if this is a typo or what, but you seriously consider Steven the best drummer ever? Dude....

"izzy doesnt have a unique sound"?

again: "izzy doesnt have a unique sound"???

please stop embarrassing yourself

when you say "izzy doesnt have a unique sound" all that you are saying is that you can not differentiate Izzy from other guitar players

if you can not differentiate Izzy from Gilby or Izzy from Richard the guitar player...

well...

then all it means is that YOU can not tell the difference

of course i can cut you some slack on this because its not so easy to differentiate Izzy from the aliens on a live situation

mostly because all these aliens that played in "GNR" are trying their best to imitate Izzy most of the time and rhythm guitar is somewhat "imitable".

But there is no mistake: you listen to it for a few minutes and you notice that its all wrong when it is not Izzy

mostly due to strumming patterns.

the aliens strumming patterns -- specially richard the guitar players strumming patterns -- are absolutely AWFUL

===

the fact that 99% of people who listen to GNR can not tell the difference is absolutely irrelevant.

there is a difference

I notice it

===

the fact that i consider steven to be the best drummer ever (my other favorites are charlie watts, marky ramone, phil rudd, etc) is also absolutely irrelevant. it is just my opinion, i happen to like his drumming better than any other drummer in the world. i dont care about drummers like neal whatever from rush or dude whatever from dream shitter and all these technical drummer bullshit

Edited March 31, 2017 by ludurigan

[kok]

I also thought they would never sell-out by selling idiotic VIP packages.

[FuriousStyles]

On 2017-03-29 at 9:41 PM, RONIN said:

My perception of Guns as a teen in the late 90's was "that cheesy 80's band". That later turned into a mystique toward the early 00's when they started to get that "legendary band" status.

 

It's interesting - somewhere along the line - disinterest, scorn and downright contempt turned into a reverence for the band and I've always wondered about it.

I'm sure Velvet Revolver and Chinese Democracy had some weird reverb effect and the long hiatus of inactivity somehow kept them fresh?

None of their releases post UYI were trendsetting - but its like these weird rumours and speculation over the last twenty years somehow insulated the band - like a cocoon - and gave the band a second life.

 

EDIT: I still have my Guitar World with KoRn on the cover - sometime during Winter '99/00 - and the feature on "Live Era" was shoved somewhere in the middle as an afterthought from what I remember. Interesting to think how much time 17 years has really encapsulated.

Edited March 31, 2017 by FuriousStyles

[EvanG]

7 hours ago, ludurigan said:

"izzy doesnt have a unique sound"?

again: "izzy doesnt have a unique sound"???

please stop embarrassing yourself

when you say "izzy doesnt have a unique sound" all that you are saying is that you can not differentiate Izzy from other guitar players

if you can not differentiate Izzy from Gilby or Izzy from Richard the guitar player...

well...

then all it means is that YOU can not tell the difference

of course i can cut you some slack on this because its not so easy to differentiate Izzy from the aliens on a live situation

mostly because all these aliens that played in "GNR" are trying their best to imitate Izzy most of the time and rhythm guitar is somewhat "imitable".

But there is no mistake: you listen to it for a few minutes and you notice that its all wrong when it is not Izzy

mostly due to strumming patterns.

the aliens strumming patterns -- specially richard the guitar players strumming patterns -- are absolutely AWFUL

===

the fact that 99% of people who listen to GNR can not tell the difference is absolutely irrelevant.

there is a difference

I notice it

===

the fact that i consider steven to be the best drummer ever (my other favorites are charlie watts, marky ramone, phil rudd, etc) is also absolutely irrelevant. it is just my opinion, i happen to like his drumming better than any other drummer in the world. i dont care about drummers like neal whatever from rush or dude whatever from dream shitter and all these technical drummer bullshit

Dude, you don't have to get upset about it... it's ok for us to disagree, so don't immediately go ''stop embarrassing yourself''. Just play nice. 

Izzy doesn't have a distinctive sound like some guitarists out there. And that's ok. That doesn't make him a bad guitarist. Most guitarists don't really have one. Slash does have a distinctive sound for example. That's one of the reasons he became a favourite guitarist and inspiration to so many. When you hear a Slash song on the radio, you immediately know it's him. Same thing with someone like John Frusciante, his playing is very recognizable. And there are many other examples to give, but I'm sure you get what I mean.

Izzy isn't that recognizable as a guitarist, maybe as a songwriter. I think most (read: most) people won't be able to tell the difference between Gilby and Izzy in a live setting. I'm not saying that someone who has been studying Izzy's technique won't be able to recognize him from someone like Gilby, but the majority won't be able to, while most will be able to pick out Slash's playing immediately. It's silly to compare Richard with Izzy because Richard is technically so much more advanced, so anyone will be able to tell it's not Izzy during a live show simply by all the technical crap Richard always pulls.

About Steven being the best drummer ever, sure... that's your opinion, I obviously can't argue with an opinion. I guess I never use terms like ''best ever'' if I know the person in question obviously isn't the ''best'' at all, but I would use ''favourite'' instead. Because there's a difference in that. There are a lot of guitarists that I love because I admire their style and even though they might not be the ''best'' at their game, they are still my favourite. But whatever.

 

Edited March 31, 2017 by EvanG

[EvanG]

1 hour ago, FuriousStyles said:

It's interesting - somewhere along the line - disinterest, scorn and downright contempt turned into a reverence for the band and I've always wondered about it.

 

I think it's also because in the 80s they were called the most dangerous band in the world, they were wild and raw. And in the 90s they were scoring big hits with ballads like Don't Cry and November Rain, even the cheesy girls in my school started to like them. Then they also had this big monster hit with Knocking On Heaven's Door, which was no Welcome To The Jungle, it was classic rock stadium sing a long kind of song. All that didn't help with keeping up this image of a cool rock band.

[AlexC]

14 hours ago, ludurigan said:

"since they became world renowed"

i wonder how they become "world renowed"

was it because axl, izzy, slash, duff, steven wrote, recorded and toured the best rock songs ever and thus became the best band ever?

please let me know i am really curious about it

Yeah, that has nothing to do with their ability to be popular now. No one cares that Izzy played a pivotal role in the writing. People only care about Axl and Slash. If you had the original 5 only doing a tour, the money generated and public interest wouldn't be any different than what they're getting now. I'm not trying to denounce Izzy and Steven's contributions I'm just being honest. 

Edited March 31, 2017 by AlexC

[AlexC]

14 hours ago, ludurigan said:

"izzy doesnt have a unique sound"?

again: "izzy doesnt have a unique sound"???

please stop embarrassing yourself

when you say "izzy doesnt have a unique sound" all that you are saying is that you can not differentiate Izzy from other guitar players

if you can not differentiate Izzy from Gilby or Izzy from Richard the guitar player...

well...

then all it means is that YOU can not tell the difference

of course i can cut you some slack on this because its not so easy to differentiate Izzy from the aliens on a live situation

mostly because all these aliens that played in "GNR" are trying their best to imitate Izzy most of the time and rhythm guitar is somewhat "imitable".

But there is no mistake: you listen to it for a few minutes and you notice that its all wrong when it is not Izzy

mostly due to strumming patterns.

the aliens strumming patterns -- specially richard the guitar players strumming patterns -- are absolutely AWFUL

===

the fact that 99% of people who listen to GNR can not tell the difference is absolutely irrelevant.

there is a difference

I notice it

===

the fact that i consider steven to be the best drummer ever (my other favorites are charlie watts, marky ramone, phil rudd, etc) is also absolutely irrelevant. it is just my opinion, i happen to like his drumming better than any other drummer in the world. i dont care about drummers like neal whatever from rush or dude whatever from dream shitter and all these technical drummer bullshit

You really need to broaden your horizons with regards to drummers.

[ludurigan]

7 hours ago, EvanG said:

Dude, you don't have to get upset about it... it's ok for us to disagree, so don't immediately go ''stop embarrassing yourself''. Just play nice. 

Izzy doesn't have a distinctive sound like some guitarists out there. And that's ok. That doesn't make him a bad guitarist. Most guitarists don't really have one. Slash does have a distinctive sound for example. That's one of the reasons he became a favourite guitarist and inspiration to so many. When you hear a Slash song on the radio, you immediately know it's him. Same thing with someone like John Frusciante, his playing is very recognizable. And there are many other examples to give, but I'm sure you get what I mean.

Izzy isn't that recognizable as a guitarist, maybe as a songwriter. I think most (read: most) people won't be able to tell the difference between Gilby and Izzy in a live setting. I'm not saying that someone who has been studying Izzy's technique won't be able to recognize him from someone like Gilby, but the majority won't be able to, while most will be able to pick out Slash's playing immediately. It's silly to compare Richard with Izzy because Richard is technically so much more advanced, so anyone will be able to tell it's not Izzy during a live show simply by all the technical crap Richard always pulls.

About Steven being the best drummer ever, sure... that's your opinion, I obviously can't argue with an opinion. I guess I never use terms like ''best ever'' if I know the person in question obviously isn't the ''best'' at all, but I would use ''favourite'' instead. Because there's a difference in that. There are a lot of guitarists that I love because I admire their style and even though they might not be the ''best'' at their game, they are still my favourite. But whatever.

 

"Izzy doesn't have a distinctive sound like some guitarists out there"

yes he has

===

"Richard is technically so much more advanced"

this Richard dude is actually very advanced on techniques

yes, he has indeed a lot of bullshit tecniques that dont add nothing to the songs and sound awful most of the time and -- important here -- really dont sound right on GNR songs

funny fact is that despite all the "technically advanced" skills that this Richard dude has he is pretty poor on some way more basic and useful techniques like strumming the chords

strumming the chords is the kind of technique that make a song groove and rock and sound good

something that all these "technically advanced" guitar players seem unable to do

 

[EvanG]

2 hours ago, ludurigan said:

"Izzy doesn't have a distinctive sound like some guitarists out there"

yes he has

 

 

My point is that most people won't be able to pick out Izzy's playing, not his songwriting, but his actual guitar playing, like they can pick out some players who really have a distinctive guitar sound. I can assure you that. That's all I mean, I don't get why you're disagreeing.

[ludurigan]

4 hours ago, EvanG said:

My point is that most people won't be able to pick out Izzy's playing, not his songwriting, but his actual guitar playing, like they can pick out some players who really have a distinctive guitar sound. I can assure you that. That's all I mean, I don't get why you're disagreeing.

we agree that most people are not able to pick izzy's playing

most people dont even know who he is -- that doesnt mean that he doesnt exist

izzy does have a distinctive sound -- a very unique style of playing.

but he plays rhythm guitar and that makes it hard for 99% of the people to tell him apart from anyone -- specially hard to tell him apart from people hired by Axl Rose to basically imitate him

 

[EvanG]

8 hours ago, ludurigan said:

we agree that most people are not able to pick izzy's playing

most people dont even know who he is -- that doesnt mean that he doesnt exist

izzy does have a distinctive sound -- a very unique style of playing.

but he plays rhythm guitar and that makes it hard for 99% of the people to tell him apart from anyone -- specially hard to tell him apart from people hired by Axl Rose to basically imitate him

 

I guess we just disagree then. I do agree that rhythm guitarists are harder to pick apart from one another, especially if they're playing exactly the same thing, but with some I am able to tell immediately who is playing and I don't have that with Izzy. And I've been playing myself for two decades now, so if I'm not able to tell immediately, then the marjority of people definitely won't. I'm sure a lot of guitar geeks and music whizz kids who have been studying GnR songs can pick Izzy apart more easily, but that's not what I've been talking about.

Edited April 1, 2017 by EvanG

[ludurigan]

4 hours ago, EvanG said:

I guess we just disagree then. I do agree that rhythm guitarists are harder to pick apart from one another, especially if they're playing exactly the same thing, but with some I am able to tell immediately who is playing and I don't have that with Izzy. And I've been playing myself for two decades now, so if I'm not able to tell immediately, then the marjority of people definitely won't. I'm sure a lot of guitar geeks and music whizz kids who have been studying GnR songs can pick Izzy apart more easily, but that's not what I've been talking about.

fair enough

i keep saying that izzy has a distintive guitar playing style -- specially his strumming patterns which have so much groove and make the song rock!

[EvanG]

1 hour ago, ludurigan said:

fair enough

i keep saying that izzy has a distintive guitar playing style -- specially his strumming patterns which have so much groove and make the song rock!

Well, kudos to you, then. I mean that. Not many people are able to recognize Izzy's guitar playing on a song on which they didn't know beforehand he was playing on. In Slash's case most are able to probably, but not with Izzy. 

[ludurigan]

14 hours ago, EvanG said:

Well, kudos to you, then. I mean that. Not many people are able to recognize Izzy's guitar playing on a song on which they didn't know beforehand he was playing on. In Slash's case most are able to probably, but not with Izzy. 

I have no idea if am able or not to recognize izzy on a song if i have no idea that he is on it

but i can recognize him on GNR

 

[EvanG]

4 hours ago, ludurigan said:

I have no idea if am able or not to recognize izzy on a song if i have no idea that he is on it

but i can recognize him on GNR

 

Ohhhhhhhhh... well, that is what I was talking about when I mentioned having a distinctive guitar sound. There are enough examples of guitarists playing on other people's songs where you can tell it's them without knowing they are on it, but because of their playing style and sound you can already pick them out. I wouldn't have that with Izzy, which doesn't make him a bad guitarist, just not someone with a very distinctive sound like some others.